• April 21, 2024

What is more logical, rational and scientific?

A. Believing there was a supernatural Jewish man 2,000 years ago who was born of a virgin, battled with Satan in a desert, cured the blind with spit, raised the dead, walked on water, multiplied fishes and loaves, transfigured on a mount, resurrected from death and flew off bodily into the sky.

B. Believing the above story is a MYTH.

Is the gospel story logical, rational and scientific?

34 thoughts on “What is more logical, rational and scientific?

  1. This reminds me,

    “If there were valid scientific evidence in support of the supernatural religious claims, faith would not be the main requirement.” – Christ In Egypt by DM Murdock

    “With so much of our global social structure based on holy writ of some sort or another, it is imperative that we examine thoroughly our sacred cows and not shirk from exposing them to the bright sunlight.” – Who Was Jesus by DM Murdock

    “Unfortunately, religion has also played a significant role in archeological fraud…Some of their adherents dabble in archeology, trying to prove the validity of their religious beliefs or claims through the discovery of archeological evidence.” – Fraud, Myths, and Mysteries by Dr. Kenneth Feder

    “…the notion of a divine lawgiver is both pernicious and superfluous. Those who call on scripture to provide a full range of infallible answers turn out to be in no better position than the rest of us who make no such claims.” – The Reason Driven Life by Dr. Robert M. Price

  2. Somebody said something like “Faith is believing in something you know not to be true”.

    1. Indeed. I believe the statement is ‘ Faith is belief without evidence’.

      I’m always amused when religions try to dignify their belief systems with the word ‘faith’, because that is all it is. If there were any validity to their claims, it would be called ‘fact’.

    2. That somebody is apparently somebody who likes to resort to strawman arguments to support their faith. I find it hilarious to read morons like Dawkins trying to apply definitions that they pull straight out of their * and then make broad claims that all religious people believe that faith is something like believing in something despite contrary evidence. The truth is that ignorant stereotypes are created to support theories that people use as emotional crutches to get out of actually having to apply any intellectual integrity to their discussions. Fortunately for Father Dawkins he has a whole population of mentally enslaved minions who have never applied an ounce of critical thought to anything that they read in a New-York Times bestselling book. If they did they may question why they’re being told, as atheists, they are a “socially-oppressed” people living in the humanist, naturalist liberal west. I am sure I’m not the only person who finds his appendix A on page 375 of the “God Delusion” down-right hilarious. It would be a whole lot funnier if it weren’t for the fact that pop culture just eats this crap up. If anybody had a free thought roaming around in their minds they may actually pick a Bible up and see what it has to say as far as the definition of faith goes. When they do that they may stumble upon chapter four of Romans where faith is described in detail by Paul, where he describes Abraham when he considered the facts of his old age, and the fact that his wife Sarah’s womb was as good as dead, and then considered the fact that the promise was coming from God, somebody who it says that he trusted would be able to do what he promised to do. It then says that Abraham didn’t waver in his trust and that this is the faith that credited to him as righteousness. Not exactly a vague description there. It really only requires a person with the reading skills of a ten year old to realize that this is not the “blind faith” that father Dawkins describes, or the blind faith necessary to believe that “The universe is nothing” as Peter Atkins puts it. Or better yet, that monkeys magically turned into humans, let me consider the evidence to support that, I have never seen a monkey magically turn into a human, I have never met a person who claims to have previously been a monkey, have you?

      1. First of all, we are not talking about Dawkins here nor we are debating whether a supreme creator called “God” exists or not. Our concern here is that the Jewish Messsiah of the NT is a mythical character, very much like the comic book stories you grew on.

  3. Speaking of myth, I stumbled into this 1998 musical film “Prince of Egypt” which depicts the life of Moses. The lyrics of the opening song though, it made sense.

    “…Elohim, Adonai, can you hear your people cry?
    Help us now!
    Listen now, and deliver us!
    Hear our call, deliver us!
    Oh, our Lord, remember us in this burning sand!
    Deliver us! There’s a land you promised us!
    Deliver us to the promised land?…”

    Can the god of the cosmos do the same thing again, right now?


  4. Indeed. I believe the statement is ‘ Faith is belief without evidence’.

    I’m always amused when religions try to dignify their belief systems with the word ‘faith’, because that is all it is. If there were any validity to their claims, it would be called ‘fact’.

    1. I always find it hilarious when these so-called “scholars” try to tag definitions on words like faith and then attribute them blindly to everyone who falls under their umbrella of “religious people”. My sister is nine years old and is capable of reading and understanding what the ignorant religious leaders like Dawkins and Harris can’t.
      This is from the Bible, Romans chapter four:
      19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”
      How is it that a nine year old is capable of understanding that this does not describe believing in something despite lack of evidence or contrary to evidence but it describes the total opposite? Is this because it is far easier to just believe what makes us comfortable than to actually look into it? Oh wait, that’s the very accusation that father Dawkins and his minions make against others, yet the evidence, as it is displayed right before you speaks to the opposite. There is far more evidence to support deliberate ignorance, on behalf of the whole “new atheist” pop-ideology that had gained its little following in the liberal west ( now after nearly a decade of preaching to the choir their little cult is dying out). Wake up people, try something radical and new: Critical thought!!!!

      1. -Okay, what about zombies rising out from their graves and prancing around the streets of Jerusalem? (Matthew 27:51-53) No contemporary records have been made about this supernatural event.
        -Jesus is more racist than the bigots from the south. (Matthew 15:22-26)
        -He wants you to become a vicious vagabond and hating your family is “a okay”. (Luke 19:27)
        -God/Jesus’s weird obsession with phallus (Deut 23:1) , menstruation cycles (Leviticus 15:19-33), and castration (Matt 19:12).
        -It was said in 1 Corinthians 15:6 that 500 people saw him ascend to heaven, but no archeological or 1st century commentaries had been written.
        -How can plants possibly photosynthesize if God created the plants first before the sun? Maybe because God is the Sun? (Genesis 1:11-19)

        Is the Bible truly inerrant, teaches morals, or something filled with contradictions and repugnant deeds and saying? http://freethoughtnation.com/bible-morality-or-depravity/
        See the following books please.

        Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of the Christ by DM Murdock
        Man Made God by Barbara G. Walker
        Reason Driven Life by Dr. Robert M. Price
        Sense and Goodness without God by Richard Carrier

  5. What about the seven Hermetic laws that for one say we live in the mental mind of God? Would that be worthy of any weight in this conversation?

      1. Tertullian (160 C.E. – 225 C.E) an early Christian writer said it so well:

        Even when a ray is shot forth from the sun, though it be but a part from the whole, yet the sun is in the ray, inasmuch as it is the ray of the sun; nor is its substance separated, but drawn out. In like manner there is Spirit from Spirit, and God from God. As when a light is kindled from another, the original light remains entire and undiminished, though you borrow from it many like itself; so That which proceeds from God, is called at once God, and the Son of God, and Both are One.

  6. Thanks for the link to the video! I know there is more to all of this than just the video; however, I wanted to address some of the scriptures that it references. I really should read some more of the work that has been done on this subject and apologize for seeming to question before even examining the deeper facts.The video references biblical scriptures about solar nature of Jesus Christ, and Sun worship in the bible.

    Some of the scriptures referenced in the video are about the Israelites when they were in exile in Babylon and had taken a liking to the Babylonian ways as it is stated in main story line of the bible when they are conquered by King Nebuchadnezzar. Sun, Moon, and Star worship were a part of the his Babylon religious system.

    Ezekiel 8:16 where the 25 men where worshiping the Sun is interpreted by Wikipedia as God being angry because of the abominations being practiced at the Temple:

    The first “temple vision”, in which Ezekiel sees God leave the Temple because of the abominations being practiced there (meaning the worship of idols other than YHWH, the official God of Judah.

    So yes, Sun worship was practiced in the dream and probably by the Israelites while they were in Babylon.

    In Psalms 84:1 it starts out praising the Heavens and the Lord of the Hosts. It is a book of songs praising the Lord, and in that verse compares the Lord to the Sun. I almost expect poetry and music to use anthropomorphism such as “You light up my life”.

    For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

    II Kings 23:11 the reference to horses being taking away, is the telling of a King that is tearing down the instruments of worship that the Israelites were using to worship Baal.

    11 And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire.

    The image of the Zodiac shown in the video shows some very interesting characteristics. Sagittarius is not a Satyr half man half horse, centaur, but instead a depiction of a man with a bow and arrow. I’ve been looking for something like that for a long time, thinking that the Satyr is a pagan or mythical creation, rather than a reference to a real thing – possibly biblical. Also, if you capture the image and use your windows photo viewer to turn it upside down, you will see that Capricorn looks like a simple drawing of a grazing animal with horns – but part of the image is damaged, although incomplete, it doesn’t have the feel of a half man, half fish. This image also shows in each corner what looks like the winged Cherubs or four beasts of Revelations, and placed next to the correct signs, that I will reference below. This image appears at minute 1:20 in the youtube video – (Jesus Christ, Sun of Righteousness).

    Josephus mention of the twelve zodiac signs found in synagogues is not a surprise because the bible makes references to the zodiac AKA the Mazzaroth. The gospel itself could be the origins of Astrology.

    The video’s reference to the Dead Sea Scrolls fragment 4Q120 could be addressed as IAO meaning where the A is Alpha and the O is Omega according “I am the Alpha and Omega” – from the book “Did Moses Exist”.

    The video makes reference to Malachi 4:2 since it uses the word ‘Sun’ to describe what I believe is the Lord.

    But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

    I will now explain below why I think that it would not be unusual to describe Jesus as the Sun. It is my intent to show that Jesus as the Sun has meaning poetically, astrologically, and biblically.

    Starting with the bible, He is from the tribe of Judah (Judah is a Lion’s Whelp Genesis 49:9). He is aligned with Leo the lion, which in astrology is ruled by the Sun. In the verse below we see reference to Jesus as a Lion; Revelations 5:5 say:

    Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

    When the Israelites camped out in the desert, each tribe would be sectioned off into areas marked by the Arc which had four faces or Cherubs; a Lion, a Calf, a Man, and an Eagle (see the image of the zodiac at minute 1:20 in the video I spoke of earlier). I think that these four signs refer to the fixed signs of the Zodiac, 90 degrees apart; Leo a Lion, Taurus a Bull, Aquarius a Man, and Scorpio an Eagle. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah which would have camped in the area represented by the Lion. These are also called Beasts in Revelations, the Seraphim, the highest of angels, and the four living creatures that worshipped the Lion and the Lamb as shown in the verses below. The zodiac image in the video shows these four men looking beasts (see the verse below of Revelations 5:8 for more about them) of Revelations as winged.

    Jesus, if He really existed, was a prince of the Israelites, even as possibly stated above His cross, and interestingly, it was through Joseph, Jesus mother Mary’s husband (in a virgin birth) that He gained this ruler ship, up or down through the linage of Solomon the son of David and Solomon’s mother Bathsheba, the woman king David covets – a difficult bible story to convey to young children by the way.

    This prince position is associated with Leo’s association with authority, ruler ship, and leadership.

    Then in Revelations 5:8, less than 4 verse further, Jesus is referred to and worshipped as a Lamb:
    8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts (the living creatures and four fixed signs) and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    Is Jesus both the Lion of Leo, and the Lamb of Aries? Each represented by his possible two visitations on the Earth, first as the sacrificial Lamb, and then that the King of the eventual peaceful kingdom which it is said He will rule. Could this Lion and Ram be interchangeable? As this ruler, the Lion of Leo, He is associated, in astrology with the ruler of Leo, the Sun.

    In astrology, the Sun is exalted in Aries. And as a side note, Saturn, which rules this Earth’s kingdoms, falls in Aries, and is a detriment in Leo, and therefore I can see why Jesus kingdom was not of this world.

    Could I conclude that Astrology and the Gospel are interconnected, therefore, in this manner, the connection between Jesus and the Sun can be possible? Do the heavens declare the glory of God (Psalms 19:1)? And verse 4: Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun.

    From the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges: How naturally the poet singles out the Sun as the chief witness to God.

    Matthew 5:45 says:

    that ye may be the children of your Father who is in Heaven. For He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    Only Dracula’s sun rays avoids. The sun is always overjoyed as with rays he fills night’s void

    A poem by Saiom Shriver

    1. Thanks. The Israelites already were sun worshippers long before their sojourn in Babylon. In fact, they were part of the Amoritish peoples who settled Babylon in the second millennium BCE. The name “Israel” means “El prevails,” referring to the Canaanite god El, who was significantly solar in nature, as was the tribal god Yahweh who later dominated the Jewish scriptures.

      I discuss the solar nature of Yahweh in the video but also in the accompanying texts, as well as my recent book Did Moses Exist? Despite the best efforts of the aggressive Yahweh fanatics, the “host of heaven”-worshipping Israelites remained polytheistic into the common era.

  7. Thanks, I appreciate your work.

    I hope to be able to check out the Book “Did Moses Exist?”, sounds good.

    There is a youtube video about the exploration of a meagerly explored mountain in Saudi Arabia, possibly the location of Mount Sinai. The video is 46 minutes long. I think it’s amazing. Here is the link if anyone wants to check it out. I would like to hear some comment about it.


    P.S. I agree about the fanatics and also I finally found a site that uses a good CAPTCHA code that I can read – first time ever – Thanks

  8. I’ve been in a intense debate with one who doesn’t understand that emotional involvement doesn’t convict an absolute truth. This was said & then a link sent to me which I’m not sure what that really proves?

    “I’m not creating any myth but exposing” yeah with more myths
    not factional evidence that is beyond dispute.
    You can justify this all you want but your making the change, your making the move… Your the one saying Jesus is false, Your the one saying Bible is mostly myths, your the one who is attacking everyone’s else s belief that are in your inner circle. What makes this worse is you admit and everyone knew you believed and you can dismiss what the Bible says all you want but As for me and My household we still believe and will not tolerate you mocking that. and there is not “overwhelming evidence” there are pieces of the puzzle that men have arranged to make sense of history and there is no absolute way to know the puzzle is put together correctly ! Thus its by faith you choose to believe them over the faith you choose to believe the bible. Whats worse is even among the Archaeologists their are many who support the bible as true and you choose to have faith in the group of men who do not.. I can find literally thousands of Historians and Archaeologist and Scientist who support the Bible as being far more accurate then people realize and yes I can find thousands who do not. But you side with the not’s and say their “Evidence” is over whelming ? The only thing over whelming is that you would exclude the other Evidence which does exist. But I don’t like pushing the evidence envelope because God wants faith.
    quick search on the internet which I seldom like to do because their is a flood of stuff out there as you I am sure know.
    I posted this because you want to question what you’ve been taught well you aren’t searching for the pro;s your searching for the Con’s and that is fact or you would never have been sending me Truth serge’s questions before…
    You are right this is not going anywhere except for where it already has gone. You think suddenly you have some knowledge I never looked at ? Some inside tract that I missed and maybe if you can word it a certain way or show me some graphic or site that I will go oh yeah… wow ok I guess I was mistaken ?
    Your the one Parrot who is also singing nothing new.
    oh and if you tell me you have already searched all the Pro’s then your deluded because You could not do so in one year less alone twenty.
    Bring me absolute proof the Bible is fake and maybe I will hear you out ? Hows that…”

    I gave up after a long long thread That I WAS 1st Attacked on. I never said anything derogatory & I never said certain things he mentioned not in this quote. It was assumptions on some parts, more or less. I can’t post anything without being challenged which I’m up for since I know it will happen. Just I try saying I use evidence over interest because a desired feeling can appease emotion over rationalization. Anyway can anyone look into this site because supposedly it proves everything in The Bible is definitely without a doubt the word of God. I say it’s spiritual experiences to explain life in a more primal time of unknown beliefs that reinforce themselves based on first believing in the concept. Then the influences branch off each other as we know it happened.


  9. I suspect that the Pagans only knew how to appease their gods, offering sacrifices to them. Our Lord offers Himself, and literally sacrificed Himself for us.

    Somehow I find it hard to wrap my mind around men coming up with this concept on their own – I could be wrong, and that’s why I’m here, to share and learn.

    If I may use the Greek word ‘Paideia’, Child Rearing, I can see that our Lord teaches us through discipline, love, compassion, and forgiveness.

    Obviously wisdom like this was known in the ancient world, but could such concepts come from the minds of men alone? It just seems that the Pagan world was so different from this.

  10. What is more rational a, or b? In order to discredit a, doesn’t b need to at least be a theory that replaces a? I find it more rational to discuss these matters with people who are aware of what makes a logical argument logical, not idiots who post logical fallacies like the flying spaghetti monster bologna. Come on people, if you ever want to move past preaching to your own choir you may want to learn what makes an argument an argument. You should have offered this b: everything in the universe was created magically out of nothing, then over lots and lots of time monkeys magically appeared, then with more time monkeys magically became humans, and thats where you came from. Which is more logical, a or b?

  11. Despite of the ballyhooed wishful thinking of some other people that Jesus of the NT is a true person who walked the third dimension, pristine, unadulterated scientific research tells us that majority of the characters in the Bible are derivatives from ancient pagan religions. These characters are based on nature worship and especially solar mythology. Jesus Christ; is a fictional character whose life and teachings are composites of pagan godmen from antiquity. The gospels we have are not originals, it is written in Greek and didn’t appear in the historical record until the last quarter of the second century.

    If you are referring to the other secular sources about Jesus, those sources are scanty and problematic according to Dr. Merrill Tenney, a conservative Protestant. Finally, the Universal Jewish Encylopedia tells us that, “The only definite account of his life and teachings is contained in the four Gospels of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All other historical records of the time are silent about him. The brief mentions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have been generally regarded as not genuine and as Christian interpolations; in Jewish writings there is no report about Jesus that has historical value. Some scholars have even gone so far as to hold that the entire Jesus story is a myth.”

    As you can see, despite the tortured attempts to attach Jesus in history, there is simply no core to his life. The gospels are contradictory, ridden in errors and anachronisms and appeared too late.

    1. Testimonium Flavianum by Josephus
    The alleged time of Jesus’s existence according to tradition is somewhere at year 4 BCE~33 CE. Josephus was born at year 37 CE and died at 100 CE. Also, the paragraph on TF is an abrupt interruption, and no other Early Church father mentions it except Eusebius. Furthermore, one should wonder why a devout Jew would give a product placement for Christianity?

    2. Pliny the Younger’s letter to his boss Trajan
    First of all, the word “Christos” is common prior to the common era. In fact, the Greek OT mentions “Christos” several times. Strong’s Concordance (G5547) defines it as a title, not a name. Secondly, his letter to Trajan doesn’t refer to people worshipping a man that has something to do with Jesus of the NT. Thirdly, many pagan gods are bear the epithet “Christ”, so we are dealing with “Christianities” here, not Christianity.

    3. Suetonius’s Life of Claudius
    The word “Chrestos” doesn’t mean the same thing as “Christos” even if they’re sound the same. “Chrestos” mean good, ergo “Chrestians” are good people which is not the same as “Christos”.

    4. Annals by Tacitus
    Despite the attempts to place it at the start of the second century, it didn’t appear in historical record until 14th century. Tertullian mentioned it once, but not the other Church fathers. All the alleged artifacts that connects this gruesome event to history is nothing but an archeological fraud.

    5. Thallus, Phlegon, Bar Serapion
    Thallus only reports a solar eclipse, not the darkening of the sky because of his death. Same goes with Phlegon who reported an earthquake and eclipse, not the death of a supernatural savior. Bar Serapion mentioned execution of a king, but nowhere it describes Jesus’s execution.

    6. Talmud
    The Talmud doesn’t represent history of Jesus because it only appeared during year 200 CE, where Christianity is already a thing. All it says about Jesus is hearsay.

    The Shroud of Turin and James Ossuary are a bunch of archaeological fraud.

    The Septuagint first appeared in Egypt because it was translated by Jews who are cognizant of Greek especially in Alexandria, Egypt. Within Alexandria, there’s a trade of information especially in the Hellenization of Jewish teachings. Philo of Alexandria talks about the “Logos”. Surprisingly, Philo never mentions Jesus of Nazareth but in the Gospel of John, it also talks about the “Logos”. Furthermore in Alexandria, cultures all over Levant, Mediterranean, as well as East Asia are being poured in that’s why there’s so much similarities between Christianity and pagan religions. (See Alexandrian Roots of Christianity, Christ In Egypt and an article by mythicist Ken Humphreys http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/philo.html)

    So I guess, I have pretty much substantiated the the answer “B” is correct.

  12. FYI this is all over the place & I know isn’t true but Christians are using it. You should send me all the possible links against this. Merry Mythmas

    Did Zeitgeist Destroy Your Faith In Jesus Christ …: http://youtu.be/aPmY1f9_d3M

    1. Oh boy! A bunch of mendacious dimwits. Always remember that faith and euphoria do not trump hard, credible, scientific evidence that actually exist.

      Here’s a reality check to those biased fundies:

      1. The only primary source of Jesus’s life and teachings are within the four gospels.
      2. The gospels didn’t appear in the historical record until the last quarter of the second century.
      3. The alleged evidences to his existence are nothing more but hearsay, interpolations, and forgeries.
      4. The gospels are not historical records of a man named Jesus of Nazareth.
      5. There’s no record that the apostles themselves are real people who wrote the gospels.

      I really do recommend Who Was Jesus: Fingerprints of the Christ. It is an essential book and a powerful ammunition when debating with apologists. The way Acharya S has written the book is quite ingenious for she used Christianity’s own playbook to prove that a man named Jesus Christ of the NT didn’t exist. If you sign up for the newsletter in truthbeknown.com, you’ll get a free ebook excerpt of WWJ. Acharya S is miles ahead in erudition in comparison with her detractors. I mean, where can you meet a person who can read, write, and speak dozen languages?

      1. Yes I agree she is prominently, profoundly thorough & Eccentric, which may be why she’s not always placed in the same scholarship but that’s easy enough because the mythicist position hasn’t been placed where it should be. Plus most leading scholars are Christians. I have a few of her E books. I received a free copy of who was Jesus before, started to read it but not sure where it is? My phone shows a download in the storage bin but the file won’t work. I found the original email with the code & tried to down load it again but no luck. I will go to Truthbeknown.com & try again. I’m friends with truthsurge & occasionally have exchanged words with Ken Humphreys. I know the basics & actually know more than most Christians, plus I used to be one. I still want to learn as much as possible, not just because of debates in which I feel compelled to speak truth or logic over interest of beliefs & I’ve always been interested in Mythology & ancient history regardless of mystical aspects/ esotericisim or non fictional realities.

    2. I started questioning faith, the religion of my parents as a child. That did not go over well, so I withdrew and read. My own experience and knowledge of others led me to the conclusion that religion is myth. I taught my children to be freethinkers and make up their own minds. They have and I’m quite proud to see the seeds I planted have blossomed into the beautiful minds that is them. My 11 yr old granddaughter holds her own in a debate reason vs. theology 🙂 I observe religions as a tool to keep one from growing. We should never stop asking questions or pushing intellect to the edge.I really do not see where religion has brought an abundance of peace to the world. Maybe because it is based in emotion, not reason. I will continue to support science and peace…

  13. Rapture,

    You have GOT to start using the forum. There’s also a search function over there to find all types of responses. Acharya S responded to Dr. Chris Forbes in a point by point rebuttal for which he has no response.

    Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes

    Dr. Chris Forbes on Zeitgeist part 1 Debunked

    Please post that link on every Youtube video you can find. It was posted there before but, they keep deleting it because Christians do not want anybody to know that Acharya S ripped Dr. Forbes arguments to shreds point by point and made him look like a ignorant fool.

    Primary sources and scholar commentary on them support Zeitgeist Part 1:


    Primary Sources & Scholars cited in the ZG1 Sourcebook

    Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes

    Zeitgeist Part 1

    1. Thanks Jake. I agree. Chris Forbes even had this eating shit grin, sorry for my improper language but at this point it’s necessary. I’ve been in a few intense debates over the past few days. Family matters too. Then I’m the bad guy because I show the overall picture of it. I was told I’m wrong about Churches built over Mithraism & about the video I was told, how can my sources be any greater etc…im hang trouble with registering into the forums & there’s so many, I only find partials of what I’m looking for. Not that it’s not there, I just have so much to look at with little time. I found helpful info though. I figured she would have a rebuttal on him. I think she mentioned it before & I’m not sure how old that video is. I need to get a few different sources of this matter because I’ve seen Christians post on news feeds with this Chris Forbes. He barely explained his proof & in 7 mins I got nothing much of it & he even used Osiris as more of a connection than Horus, lol. I want to post my own rather than reply to all these posts on Facebook because already they are targeting me as a negative predator who continues to disagree but they ignore much of my proposals. I’ll check out the links. Thanks again.

  14. Rapture,

    Here’s another important link to share.

    “There are several very important things you need to be made aware of about academia regarding religion. Religious studies are not the same as the hard sciences like physics or engineering that are testable and falsifiable as so much of religion is open to interpretation, which can easily be subject to biases. The cliff-note version of what you will learn in this thread is how most of our oldest universities, institutes of higher learning and colleges were church affiliated from the start. In the past, you couldn’t get a PhD without also studying religion. So, we’re interested in how that has influenced religious courses throughout academia, and how that influence still exists to this very day. The fact is, nobody is even looking at this issue at the level it should be and certainly, nobody is doing anything about it… ”

    Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History

  15. Isaiah 41:2 (New King James Version)

    “Who raised up one from the east?
    Who in righteousness called him to His feet?
    Who gave the nations before him,
    And made him rule over kings?
    Who gave them as the dust to his sword,
    As driven stubble to his bow?

    The Lion and the Lamb shall lay down together

  16. Hey I’ve found some interesting info. I know Jesus is a myth but I was do extensive research on Buddha & I found most of the claims compared to Jesus other than the crucifixion, the 12 disciples is vaguely there & the serpent head being crushed is hard to find even if it’s metaphorical. The teachings/sayings are definitely very similar. The walking in water miracle too & thirst for water etc… anyway this site claims there’s some that are true & not for a copy cat. Same with Krishna because the site is saying most of Krishna is after 1st century. Please verify the 2 links & let me know what’s up?



    some of the sites Alien claims is funny. Lol

    1. All of that supposed “evidence” has been refuted in my book Did Moses Exist? and elsewhere. It is simply not true. “Israel” was NEVER in Egypt as depicted in the Pentateuch. The Israelites emerged from the native Canaanites and Amorites in the hill country of Samaria and Judea during the end of the first millennium. Moses and the Exodus is a mythical not historical event.


  17. These are just my thoughts about the whole deal but on gut level I too have my doubts and questions. Sometimes I just get into this because as they say “there are no atheists in the foxholes” and trust me I’m in the fox hole right now. Communicating like this with you is a major help right now because it keeps my mind off of the mere fact that basically I’ve been shot out of a Cannon and am now recovering so that I can be shot out again. So please just take these thoughts as my therapy more than a preaching or insistence.

    Tertullian, who lived about 160 AD, is said to have learned semi-directly from John the Apostle. An early Christian Apologist he wrote many wonderful things about the gospel that concurs with the New Testament Apostles and therefore gives us a wonderful connection between them and the ages. He is referenced a lot for thoughts on the Trinity and said that Christ was like a Sun ray emanating from the Sun, one in the same as the Sun, but coming out of it. He disliked Gnosticism and stated below from Wiki:

    He disliked Greek philosophy, and, far from looking at Plato, Aristotle, and other Greek thinkers whom he quotes as forerunners of Christ and the Gospel, he pronounces them the patriarchal forefathers of the heretics. Other apologists stated that God had no name because no one created Him, and He therefore called himself “The I Am”.

    The Gnostics still exist today in the form of people purported to be experts of myth.

    In their discussions of myths that parallel the life of Christ, they live amongst the associated paganism of satyr half men-half horse, half-men half-fish, ventures into never-never land and all the mythology they themselves use to dispute a solid historical narrative that the bible presents. It can also be argued that they come up with a pleasant tune and tried to apply it to all musical compositions – put another way, he comes up with an idea or concept first and then searches through his archive’s of myths and picks out those that can be applied to the idea or concept, even if it takes a rather large shoe horn to do so. So Christ’s ascension gets mixed up with Brahmaputra’s duck fart in the Ganges, and its all supposed to make sense. This whole self-knowledge, find the god within you can be to vague an idea to pin the tail on any donkey.

    In my studies of the anti-bible proponents, their greatest and most certain theme is always the same – Monomythism; Many cultures had their Jesus that had 12 apostles, healed the sick, was born of a virgin, etc.

    from the stonezone.com:

    Gnostics of the early centuries of Christianity fabricated numerous texts which espoused their paganistic worldview. Texts that they composed, such as the “Secret Book of James” or “The Secret Book of John” promote a godless experiential concept such as that Jesus did not really die on the cross as people supposed but was laughing “in space” above the cross. Current “scholars” such as Elaine Pagels, who have long ago rejected the inspiration of the Bible, have swooned over these self-conflicting anonymous 3d and 4th century texts. Supposedly, they give a more authentic voice to Christianity. Salvation is to be found only by mystical “self-knowledge.” Go back into ancient history where honoring of the “goddess” was practiced, declares Pagels and Campbell. Throw rational thinking out the window and get in touch the “god inside of you” exults Campbell.

    New Age themes run rampant throughout Campbell’s writings. “Satan is god;” “Get in touch with the god inside of you;” the “vegetable world is conscious;” Get back in touch with nature; worship Gaia; our bodies are actually part of the goddess Gaia; one can never know the truth—any truth; heaven is “within you;” the Apocryphal Book of John of the Nag Hammadi “Scriptures” reveals the real account of Jesus’ life; denial of evil; God is “only a thought not a reality; You are God!; Let’s all worship the earth; God is wicked because he invented hell—and many other such blasphemous nonsensical assertions are lodged by Campbell.

    One of the … serious fallacy of supposing that commonality proves borrowing. The Egyptian god Osiris supposedly died and was resurrected; Jesus is said to have died and resurrected; therefore they both are myths and Christianity is assumed to have borrowed the tale from the common mythology of the world. Assertions, assertions, assertions.

    Campbell strategically ignores the fact that the Bible is amply demonstrated historically as well as by a careful examination of fulfilled prophecies of the Old Testament. Ancient pagan cultural myths do not even pretend to do this. But to New Agers, logical lapses seem to make little difference.

    What Campbell refuses to do is to come to grips with the fact that the New Testament never purports to be a mere book of ethics or stories, but is good news bound up in the historical order rooted deeply in the historical narratives presented. What distinguishes Christianity from the rest of the world’s religions and philosophical systems is that it purports to be an actual historical record and it is verifiable at thousands of points as it intersects with secular records and archaeology. The New Testament documents are historically reliable and are doubtlessly authentic.

    It’s always the same story. Moses didn’t exist, Jesus didn’t exist, King David, King Solomon, – nobody from the bible existed. They always dispute it with illusive cultures such as the Egyptians which the common man will can never understand their complicated system of worship.

    When Constantine made Christianity a state religion, Gnostics taught that Jesus was created like the angles, also a JW belief and Mormon. Mormonism also takes Platonism to another level in their belief of three distinct kingdoms of heaven where the highest is with God – such as Plato taught. It created a division in the churches. Constantine wanted to use Christianity to unify his kingdom. Christianity, which competed with many Pagan religions, was highly respected, because of the Martyrs who stood firm and had a pure lifestyle. Constantine saw the division as a problem because he was trying to unify his Empire. So he called for the council of Niacine, where they would explain what had been handed down and which was the truth and so they came out with a creed – that which a true Christian would have to acknowledge. One of the letters stated that Christ was begotten by the father before the beginning of time – written by Antioch on his way to Rome to be executed for being a Christian. The Apostle John died around 100 AD, probably 90 years old, and had a friend that was born about the same time john died, Justin Martyr – called that because he was a famous Martyr. A great resource of letters from about 150 AD – he started out as a philosopher and became a converted gentile. He is quoted as saying the God has no name because no one created Him.

    It is these people, great Martyrs, that we see that there is a rational power behind the gospel of Christ. As opposed to what I’ve shown the dual nature of people like modern day Gnostics with there pin the tail on the donkey teachings. There is simply no comparison between these modern Gnostics and Tertullian who was probably martyred for his beliefs.

  18. Compared to the complexity of the cosmos, our consciousness is like a Bugs Bunny Cartoon. None of us has a clue what is really going on.

  19. Parthenogenesis from Greek ‘virgin’ refers to those creatures that can create offspring without an opposite gender (very simple terms). Many times it involves the female rather than the male. This would be a valid word to describe the virgin birth of Christ – who by the way was a prince thru Mary’s linage, Joseph’s linage (he adopted Christ which made Christ his legal right to inheritance of both physical and ruler-ship). Christ would also be a prince if it was an inception from God – therefore Christ would be three times a prince – Mary, Joseph, and God.

    Many species of Scorpions are capable of Parthenogenesis – and interesting that the sign of Scorpio is also called the ‘phoenix’ – a bird that according to Wiki is: is a long-lived Bird that is cyclically regenerated or reborn.

    When studying Parthenogenesis, you will see that the word ‘cloning’ comes up because sometimes all of the DNA is passed to the offspring – and sometimes only half (??) but nonetheless we see how this cloning process which comes from Parthenogenesis and also found in some birds, would indeed seem to make a creature covered under the title of ‘long living’ – and also regenerating – just as the Phoenix of mythology was described.

    Pretty amazing stuff if you ask me – the connection between the Scorpio sign, ruled by Pluto which is characterized by regeneration, and also connected to Parthenogenesis. I think this would be a valid subject in a class room because it shows a deeper understanding of astrology and mythology – more than the average person gets from reading their daily horoscope in the pulp magazines or the fables of Hercules.

    In Tim Warner’s 13 hours lecture on how the old testament is played out in the heavenly signs (from the bible verse: “the heavens declare the glory of God”), Scorpio represented the time when God made the Israelites wander around in the desert where they were bitten by scorpions for 40 years, most or all of the generation that refused to go fight their way into the promised land died off and a new generation was reborn – and then Jeremiah (Sagittarius man with a Bow and Arrow – not half horse as mythology portrayed) would lead them into the promised land where they spent many years conquering it (down came the walls of city of Jericho for example where they used trumpets to bring the walls down). Sag also represents travel into foreign lands, new languages, ruled by Jupiter which all professors have a strong influence. Very possible that Jericho understood the physics of sound and was a professor of physics.

    Transit Pluto (where it is today) and ruler of Scorpio is nearing my Ascendant, the place in my chart or heavens which was ascending over the eastern horizon when I was born. This Ascendant is the most important part of a horoscope and represents our birth place and time. As Pluto travels thru my 12th house it can bring sickness, traveling a couple of degrees per year in some signs, now Capricorn, I am nearing my rebirth – or let me say, my death and rebirth – but let’s face it, after rebirth, we don’t remember death so we can just as well call it rebirth. Will the rebirth come in the form of Reincarnation or Resurrection? I don’t really know which, but either way it will be similar to the rebirth of the Phoenix.

    Capricorn follows Sag and is closely related, and as we see since we know that King David finished some of the work of Jeremiah when he killed the giant Goliath. David who was anointed with a goat horn, was a shepherd as a boy, and lived with the goats as stated in 1st Samuel 24:2 Saul went looking to kill David and took his men as the verse states into the hills where the goats lived: Then Saul took three thousand chosen men from all Israel, and went to seek David and his men on the Rocks of the Wild Goats

    Funny thing, when you cross a sheep and a goat you get a ‘Geep’. Geep sounds like the word ‘Jeep’ and humorously similar in style. There is one in a petting zoo in Scottsdale AZ. Notice sheep species in the genus ‘Ovis Aries’ and notice the ‘Aries’ in the genus name (Even biology is connected to mythology and astrology).

    From the word “Parthenon” of the Greek Temple, we see the etymology relating to “Virgin Goddess” in some peoples beliefs. No one really knows the total purpose or beliefs behind the Parthenon to my understanding.

    The Parthenon was converted into a Christian church in the final decade of the sixth century AD to become the Church of the Parthenos Maria (Virgin Mary), or the Church of the Theotokos (Mother of God). Theo (God) and tokos (bearer) – God bearer

    Enough rambling from nowhere – but in conclusion, remember the word ‘Parthenogenesis’ which describes the creatures that can recreate themselves. According to Tim Warner, Christ would have been an Aries – the Lamb, and as stated in 1st Peter 1:19-21

    19: but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

    And as an Aries, which is ruled by Mars – which at that time (before the discovery of Pluto) also ruled Scorpio – would have been born with the power of the Phoenix – to recreate himself, not only as a being, but as a God

  20. C. Believing that critical thought is still practiced by those who aren’t so easily deceived that they can’t see right through a blatantly one-sided, biased trick question like the above one. Those of us who are actually free thinkers(not because we read on the pages of R.Dawkins’ latest best-seller that we were “free thinkers” so long as we believed what he told us to) are capable of recognizing manipulative, one-sided statements like those found on these pages, and that’s when red flags go up. It is more logical and rational to follow the evidence to whatever conclusion it leads you to, even if that conclusion is inconvenient for you. In fact, one should follow the evidence wherever it leads even if “really, really smart guys” say that you’re a knuckle-dragging neanderthal if you believe otherwise. DON’t BE INDOCTRINATED BY THE MASSES. THINK FOR YOURSELF

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