Jihad for Jesus!
How are the American soldiers being brainwashed by these codes, which aren’t the full scripture, obviously, but the number? Are they reading and reciting the Bible in classes on the Army bases? Is that Constitutional?
Does this sort of neverending religious war-and-violence brainwashing represent the only way human beings will be motivated enough to slaughter their fellow man en masse? Is this factor the real reason there are no atheists in foxholes?
U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret ‘Jesus’ Bible Codes
Coded references to New Testament Bible passages about Jesus Christ are inscribed on high-powered rifle sights provided to the United States military by a Michigan company, an ABC News investigation has found….
One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6, is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
Other references include citations from the books of Revelation, Matthew and John dealing with Jesus as “the light of the world.” John 8:12, referred to on the gun sights as JN8:12, reads, “Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”…
20 thoughts on “Jihad for Jesus!”
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It’s really quite astounding, the extent that manipulation seems to run in Military systems. Why is it that soldiers are never oriented by their establishment to look at the situation critically and decide for themselves (based upon that critical analysis) whether they’d like to kill people?
Jump to conclusions
Maybe this isn’t military sanctioned, but is done by the manufacturer or even just certain employees within the company as a subtle form of evangelization or just morale support for those in the field who understand the meaning of the codes. That being said, there has been disturbing information from some of the service academies that a lot of pretty heavy handed religious messages are being drilled into to cadets and failure to conform has in some cases been penalized on an personal or unofficial basis. Nothing wrong with offering basic religious support via chaplains or whatever but if its forced or troops are required to conform that’s a while different kettle of fish.
There are several serious problems with this issue. Maybe it wouldn’t be so bad if those bible scripts were REMOVABLE.
I cannot tolerate this stupid crap i.e [b]WAR mixed w/ faith[/b] because it will come back to bite all of us at some point. Dumb move, Trijicon – they should lose their contract to set an example for all other military contracts.
This just gives more rhetoric & propaganda to Muslims in a juvenile way. [b]Our military are SUPPOSE to be professionals fighting for the US – NOT XIANITY![/b]
On a side note, some of these “codes” mention John 3:16 – you see it often at sports games on signs. My problem w/ it is that just after that at John 3:18 it says:
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son”
That is pure discrimination against non-believers & there are several other scriptures that discriminate in a similar way.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists]Discrimination against atheists[/url]
Theocracy Watch: Dominion Theology (1/5) ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc8XS-PxFFA[/url])
Theocracy Watch ([url]http://www.theocracywatch.org[/url])
Remember the fiasco in 2003 with Lieutenant General Boykin
US is ‘battling Satan’ says general ([url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3199212.stm[/url])
“I knew, that my God was bigger than his,” said Lt Gen Boykin “I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol.”
Nice to meet you Mr. Kettle
I’m afraid I must take issue here.
Firstly, there are many atheists in the military (not to mention agnostics, Jews, Practitioners of Santoria even).
Secondly, (this question is directed to Brenton) why do you assume soldiers are not trained to critically think? If an individual has chosen to enter the service, he or she has already decided that they can tolerate killing if necessary. Also, why would you use the phrase “like to kill?” I’m sure there are some blood-thirsty jerks in the mix, but the majority of combat-level servicement I have encountered would find the implication behind that phrase misguided, to say the least.
Thirdly, and this is mostly for Peter Perfect, I agree with you that actions like this can facilitate propaganda. I’m not sure the “codes” would be incredibly evident, nor do I believe citizens of a theocracy would consider it strange, but I certainly agree that providing unnecessary fuel to the propaganda fire is a poor decision.
In reference to what you said regarding Bible verses worn by athletes or on the weapons, “That is pure discrimination against non-believers & there are several other scriptures that discriminate in a similar way.” Do you recognize the folly, however, in considering someone else’s different opinion to be discriminatory when it is only exhibited in equal measure to your own?
Consider it this way: The United Nations defines discrimination as behaviors which can take many forms with the pattern factor being that they “all involve some form of exclusion or rejection.” Seeing a symbol for a verse that indicates you are excluded from heaven is only discriminatory if you believe heaven is a place from which you can be excluded, right?
Obviously, if you are prevented from working or being promoted because you do not share a religious opinion, that is discrimination. If, however, you are watching a Florida football game and see Tebow’s verse of the week, this is not discrimination. We all have to see things we don’t like. If the discomfort of seeing verses is greater than the joy of watching the game, click the power button.
Also, I find it likely an atheist soldier with a JN3;16 stamped in the middle of several other numbers on his sighting scope is much more concerned about the quality and functionality of his weapon than what the serial numbers might mean.
Finally, it is important when developing an argument supporting one’s opinion to consider all facts. The above entry by the author states, “These scriptures are obviously designed to inspire the soldiers to give their lives if necessary but not to feel bad about slaughtering their fellow human beings, because they are not of the right religion anyway.”
It is doubtful that opinion is legitimate given that the “scripture codes” have been embedded thusly since the inception of the company, as per the owner’s choice, 30 years ago. It was neither offensive nor inflammatory enough to deter buyers, otherwise the company would have failed years ago. If the product is superior relative to its competition, it doesn’t really matter. This is a free country, and he paid the bills and salaries so he could have put naked greco-roman wrestlers, pandas on ice skates, or references to Judy Blume’s “Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret” on the optics if he wanted. This blog is allowed to exist, thrive, and generate income based on the same freedom.
Moreover, this example of contrived negativity by finding hate or discrimination where there may be none is as hypocritical as anything this entire blog presumes to be against. It is no less primitive than the images of religious zealouts and fanatics working themselves up into frenzy by feeding off each others’ trite mantras (like a spiritual pep rally). If the goal of this blog is to educate, it fails in this.
Critical thinking is a two way street. If one cannot express opinion or attempt to prove points without half-truths or manipulation of facts (whether intentional or unintentional), then he or she should recognize a flaw in argument or intentions and gracefully decline to comment. Otherwise, one will only maintain credibility with the ignorant.
If this blog is intended to serve more as a support group, then forgive me. It likely succeeds in this. If, however, reason and free thought are desired, consider the counterproductivity of developing arguments and opinions in a way which mirrors the methods of people considered by the author to be manipulative or misguided.
I am not interested in defending any religion. I am also not a warmonger or any other stereotypical fanatic. I just happen to think that every blog like this could take a lesson from Bertrand Russell and consider the following before making assumptions, accusations, and leaps of logic:
“If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.” -BR
Don’t accidentally create your own new myths. Argue fiercely with yourself against your own opinion before you argue with others.
Stew “In reference to what you said regarding Bible verses worn by athletes or on the weapons, “That is pure discrimination against non-believers & there are several other scriptures that discriminate in a similar way.” Do you recognize the folly, however, in considering someone else’s different opinion to be discriminatory when it is only exhibited in equal measure to your own?”
How deranged can you possibly be, Stew? The “folly” here is the utter failure to recognize the difference between varying views where folks can agree to disagree and religious views that have the distinct purpose and intent to harm or KILL others for not having the same religious faith. I hope you’re not an American or even living in any western country with your views which are a complete divorce from reality. Here’s how,
The issue began as shooting Muslims with these Trijicon scopes with bible scriptures on them shooting the enemies of the Christian God. Now, read these couple comments from others on this issue:
[quote]”I have as much a right to believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior as you do to not believe. According to God’s word you as a non believer are his natural enemy, and it is your sin that separates you from the love of God, but even so God still placed His son upon a Christ to die for your sins so that you might be saved, it is not God’s fault that you do not believe. So God loves even His enemies , grace and judgment are but two sides of the same sword and God has the final word in the end.”[/quote]
[quote]”Every human I kill, I am very happy Jesus is on my side! Killing for jesus is the only way to kill. To bad they can’t put faces of jesus on the bullets so i can shoot muslims in the head and put gods word in their head….God bless fox news and god bless christians….f**k muslims and people who watch anythign expect fox news!”[/quote]
[b]Now, if you’re an enemy of God because you’re not a Christian then what’s the difference between killing Muslims in Iraq and killing AMERICANS who are not Christians? NOTHING!!! [/b]
Stew, your comments are offensive to say the least. They are no better than those quotes from the bigoted Christian fundamentalists.
Excellent points highlighting the dangers of this brainwashing.
Indeed, it’s VERY dangerous for these soldiers to be brainwashed by Christianity, as they could just as easily turn the scopes on ALL non-Christians, including not only Muslims but also Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans and nonbelievers of all sorts. We are all, in effect, “enemies of God” under this sort of brainwashing. We could therefore be easily shot with the “comforting” codes steadying the trigger finger.
Stew “Also, I find it likely an atheist soldier with a JN3;16 stamped in the middle of several other numbers on his sighting scope is much more concerned about the quality and functionality of his weapon than what the serial numbers might mean.”
You missed the point so I’ll repeat it again. The US military are SUPPOSE to be professionals fighting for the US – NOT XIANITY! After reading the rest of your comments, Stew, I feel it’s fair to say that you fail utterly to understand that point.
Stew “This is a free country, and he paid the bills and salaries so he could have put naked greco-roman wrestlers, pandas on ice skates, or references to Judy Blume’s “Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret” on the optics if he wanted. This blog is allowed to exist, thrive, and generate income based on the same freedom.”
Thanks for that manipulative argument, Stew. Yes, it’s “free country” however according to the US Constitution, Gov’t is to remain neutral towards religion and[b] last time I checked the military was still run by the US Gov’t not Christianity. Therefore, plain and simple, the bible scriptures on military weapons are not only poor taste but UNCONSTITUTIONAL. America is *NOT* a “Christian Nation.” The US military does not fight for Christianity.[/b] I find your lack of getting that very simple point embarrassing for you. We’re talking about the US military here not some local guy who inscribed bible scripture on his own pistol.
Stew “this example of contrived negativity by finding hate or discrimination where there may be none is as hypocritical as anything this entire blog presumes to be against.”
Wow, what planet do you live on Stew?
[quote]Discrimination ([url]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination[/url])
“treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and intolerance and discrimination.”[/quote]
These scriptures are all examples of discrimination &/or intolerance of non-believers:
1 John 4:2-3 Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.
2 John 7: “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh…”
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no god.’ they are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good.
Mark 16:15-16 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Here’s more evidence of Mass crimes against humanity and genocides A list of atrocities: 1450 CE to 1903 ([url]http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide2.htm[/url])
Religious intolerance in the Old Testament ([url]http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm[/url])
Hatred of persons of other religions: Here, persons of other religions seem to be referred to as the enemies of God. The author of Psalm 139 enthusiastically hates persons of other religions with a “perfect hatred.” Palms 139:19-22 ([url]http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl3.htm[/url])
How many has God killed? ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2381[/url])
Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E) ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=12120#12120[/url])
Tactics
* They provided the theological foundation for the persecution of heretics in civil courts.
* They created a false and unsupportable belief that large numbers of worshipers had sold their soul to Satan and were committing evil and homicidal acts.
My comment above creates these types of attitudes i.e. DISCRIMINATION:
* “No, I don’t know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.”
– George H.W. Bush
“Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land – for Jesus Christ – to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect life & godliness. It is dominion we’re after not just a voice. It is dominion we’re after not just influence. It is dominion we’re after not just equal time. It is dominion we’re after. World conquest. That’s what Christ has commissioned us to do.”
– George Grant – “changing of the guard” pg 50-51
“Our goal, as Christians, is to dominate society”
– Pat Robertson
“Christianity & Democracy are inevitably enemies”
– R.J. Rushdoony “Independent Republic” pg 122, 1964
“The church should be a disciplined charging army Christians, like slaves & solders ask no questions. We are fighting a holy war”
– Jerry Falwell
“Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the cost. As the vice regents of God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors — in short, over every aspect and institution of human society.”
– D. James Kennedy
“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith … We need believing people.”
– Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933
Discrimination against atheists ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists[/url])
Discrimination against atheists in State Constitutions:
Some State Constitutions in the US require a religious test as a qualification for holding public office:
The Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution (Article I, Section 4) last amended on September 13, 2003 states that an official may be “excluded from holding office” if she/he does not “acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.”
North Carolina’s Constitution, Article 6 Sec. 8 states “Disqualifications of office. The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God….”
South Carolina’s Constitution, Article 6 Section 2: “Person denying existence of Supreme Being not to hold office. No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.”
Tennessee’s Bill of Rights: Article 9, Section 2: “No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.”
Indiana Preamble – TO THE END, that justice be established, public order maintained, and liberty perpetuated; WE, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to ALMIGHTY GOD for the free exercise of the right to choose our own form of government, do ordain this Constitution.
Arkansas Constitution, Article 19 Section 1 of the 1874 constitution:
“No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court.”
RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION IN U.S. STATE CONSTITUTIONS ([url]http://www.religioustolerance.org/texas.htm[/url])
Why do Atheists care about Religion? ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4fQA9mt-Mg[/url])
[quote][b]Stew[/b] “this example of contrived negativity by finding hate or discrimination where there may be none is as hypocritical as anything this entire blog presumes to be against.”[/quote]
Wow, what planet do you live on Stew?
[quote]Discrimination ([url]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination[/url])
“treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and intolerance and discrimination.”[/quote]
No, there’s obviously no discrimination going on here at all according to Stew (shakes head in amazement).
Sue those states!
US Constitution Article 6: “The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; BUT NO RELIGIOUS TEST SHALL EVER BE REQUIRED AS A QUALIFICATION TO ANY OFFICE OR PUBLIC TRUST UNDER THE UNITED STATES” (Emphasis mine, of course)
Sue! Get it removed!
By the way, the whole thing with the verses on the guns is an EPIC FAIL! (and should be put on Failblog.org)
Wow
Peter,
I had no intention of offending. I am not even a Christian. I do understand the point you are attempting to make. I think it is sad that you don’t understand my response. I also think it’s sad that you resort to insults.
I agree that the quotes you included regarding killing people for Jesus are disturbing. There are seriously disturbed fanatics who believe in many, many things. I’m certain you know that as well as I do.
People who are sick enough to believe God tells them to kill a person or a group of people are going to kill regardless for that reason regardless of what goes on a scope. The military as an organization DOES NOT encourage this as jihad. There are thousands of people in the military, some of whom are twisted. Some of those people probably do stupid things, included making comments like you mentioned.
Still, I’d like to know how you make the connection that there is brainwashing for Christian killing in today’s military? This is more than a stretch, it’s ridiculous.
The fact that you felt the need to remind me of this, “The issue began as shooting Muslims with these Trijicon scopes with bible scriptures on them shooting the enemies of the Christian God. Now, read these couple comments from others on this issue…” suggests you ignored part of the point of what I was trying to say. The scopes had those tiny numbers and letters on them decades before either war in Iraq. You can’t say they were put there to encourage killing Muslims if they weren’t being used for that when someone decided to put them there. That’s it.
The military is not fighting a holy war. It may be a stupid war. It may be unnecessary. There may be jackasses in the trenches who are revved up by their own individual fanaticism. There may be fanatics in the states who use it as an opportunity for a platform for their ridiculous t.v. programs. That doesn’t mean the military as a whole is trying to brainwash. The more legitimate issue is that unfortunately the vast majority of Americans willing to enlist are right-wing conservative christian males. My point here is simply that generallizing the entire organization is equal to generalizing all atheists as Christian hating devil worshipers.
Regarding this:
“Stew “This is a free country, and he paid the bills and salaries so he could have put naked greco-roman wrestlers, pandas on ice skates, or references to Judy Blume’s “Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret” on the optics if he wanted. This blog is allowed to exist, thrive, and generate income based on the same freedom.”
Thanks for that manipulative argument, Stew. Yes, it’s “free country” however according to the US Constitution, Gov’t is to remain neutral towards religion and last time I checked the military was still run by the US Gov’t not Christianity. Therefore, plain and simple, the bible scriptures on military weapons are not only poor taste but UNCONSTITUTIONAL. America is *NOT* a “Christian Nation.” The US military does not fight for Christianity. I find your lack of getting that very simple point embarrassing for you. We’re talking about the US military here not some local guy who inscribed bible scripture on his own pistol. “
First of all, tell me how you find that argument manipulative. If you disagree, fine. But please, spell it out for me like I’m the idiot you obviously believe me to be. The full two paragraphs from which you plucked a quote simply address the fact that the timeline of Trijicon’s development (and practice of including verse references) is inconsistent with the allegation that verses were placed on the weapons explicitly for the purpose of inciting rage towards a muslim enemy. The portion you cited as “manipulative” was intended as a reminder that while you do live in a society where persecution and discrimination based on beliefs is illegal, you also live in a capitalist (to some degree) country. It’s not just a free country, it’s a free market. It is (or should be) survival of the fittest at its finest. If Trijicon is still in business after 30+ years, there is a reason and it probably goes beyond bible verses. If the government is allowed to tell how they can or cannot develop their serial numbers for the purposes you suggest, then what else can the government tell them they can or cannot do? You may disagree, but it is a valid point. If there were a manufacturer who provided equal weapons, equal costs, etc., I’m sure the government would award them the contract in order to avoid this very type of controversy. At that point, I’m sure Trijicon would reconsider the serial number messages.
Also, can you cite a precedent for me that the verses are unconstitutional?
You cite a great deal of inflammatory quotes, but the ones from the Bible do neither of us personal harm unless we encounter a lunatic, or are afraid of being “discriminated” against when we die (i.e. you are “condemned” to hell…not a problem if you don’t believe in it). How can it hurt you any more than any other religious or cultural text with similar suggestions? Why are you any more concerned about a religious fanatic than any other lunatic, criminal, or random catastrophe. As long as there are humans with a propensity towards becoming dogmatic, it really doesn’t matter what the specific belief is. The danger is in the attitude. That danger will continue to exist no matter what happens to Christianity, and your endless quotes from the likes of Hitler and Pat Robertson do absolutely nothing to help or promote understanding.
You have failed to stay on point in your response. You bring up peripheral issues which may be valid and may be true, but are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
I honestly don’t see how you could so incredibly miss every single point and therefore assume I was the one who didn’t get it. If you cannot recognize that I simply offered constructive criticism (mostly to the author of the post, not even to you), then my responding further is probably pointless. Hopefully you will recognize at some point that you will NEVER offer a positive, progressive influence on acceptance of alternative beliefs until you are better equipped to reason with and address people of all beliefs. Good luck with that, and I hope that if you live in any of the states you mentioned above, you are talking to your government representatives about their constitutions. Otherwise, why complain.
P.S. I do live in the states, I am not deranged, and I challenge you to view this and my previous post in the spirit in which it was intended. I do not wish to be combative. If you are sincerely interested in “free thought,” don’t make this personal.
Peter Perfect said…
“You missed the point so I’ll repeat it again. The US military are SUPPOSE to be professionals fighting for the US – NOT XIANITY! After reading the rest of your comments, Stew, I feel it’s fair to say that you fail utterly to understand that point.”
Peter, I believe you are the one missing the point completely. I am an atheist, I was also in Iraq for some time. I can be the first one to tell you that the majority of the soldiers there don’t even look at the serial number because all it is is a record for accountability; not even an accountability for them but precisely for the people ordering the scopes and maintaining their functionality by fixing them. You’re assuming that the military knew that the serial numbers were representative of scripture passages, and you as an atheist should know that assuming is counterproductive of what we represent.
The way the purchasing works for military arms is all by contract. When the military’s contract is running out for a specific manufacturer they put out a new proposal for ALL manufacturers. They then begin to work the numbers and test the product to find out who has the best product for the best prices and once they are with that contract they are obligated to stay with it for the set amount of time established in the contract; they are held to that contract regardless of what may come to light. It could be that Trijicon had the most reliable, quality product for the lowest prices and in a time of war every penny counts. It doesn’t matter one bit what the serial numbers represent as long as the product the military is investing in will not malfunction when a soldier needs it the most; everything other than the functionality of the product is superfulous.
Peter Perfect said…
“Thanks for that manipulative argument, Stew. Yes, it’s “free country” however according to the US Constitution, Gov’t is to remain neutral towards religion and last time I checked the military was still run by the US Gov’t not Christianity. Therefore, plain and simple, the bible scriptures on military weapons are not only poor taste but UNCONSTITUTIONAL. America is *NOT* a “Christian Nation.” The US military does not fight for Christianity. I find your lack of getting that very simple point embarrassing for you. We’re talking about the US military here not some local guy who inscribed bible scripture on his own pistol.”
Please Peter, explain how the statement you’re refering to is manipulative. Stew is explaining that the way we have our country set up is based on freedoms. I could burn the American flag and nothing would happen to me based on that same freedom being stated. Exactly how do you know that the military knowingly purchased these scopes with the scriptures in the serial numbers? You are once again assuming. Please as an atheist, do not represent us in this manner. We are supposed to be logical, rational individuals who do not jump to a conclusion without all of the evidence. You are right that the military does not fight for christianity, but your statement falls flat because Stew makes no mention of fighting for Christianity at all in his comments.
Peter Perfect said…
“Wow, what planet do you live on Stew?”
You know where Stew lives. I understand this is rhetoric but your statement is percieved as a personal attack. Once again you are failing to represent the atheist community in the respectable way we wish to be represented. If your only way of refuting an argument is through attacks then maybe you should let the more logical patient atheists represent us.
Lastly Peter. What does it really matter that there are scriptures mixed with the serial numbers of the optical scopes? A majority of those scopes will only be used in weapons training to maintain proficiency in firearms and NOT for killing an enemy. You as an atheist don’t believe in the scripture anyway and I can tell you matter of factly that 90% of the soldiers carrying the Trijicon scope didn’t know about what was in the serial number until the media picked up on it. I can guarantee you that when a soldier found about this his words will probably be “So what, how about some news on when I go home.”
Okay Stew, we agree on several points but I just think you fail to note the seriousness of this issue and where it could lead. I think some of your arguments are either distractions from the issue at hand (red herrings) or irrelevant. Other arguments of yours are, of course, spot-on.
I have several secular organizations articles to provide that not only agree with me but have written letters to the Secretary of Defense, the President and others launching a formal complaints and demanding full investigations and much more.
Freedom From Religion Foundation Objects to ‘Jesus Rifles’ ([url]http://www.ffrf.org/news/releases/freedom-from-religion-foundation-objects-to-jesus-rifles/[/url])
FFRF Objects to ‘Jesus Rifles’ ([url]http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3052[/url])
Sight Fight: U.S. Military Must See Problem With Bible Engravings ([url]http://blog.au.org/2010/01/20/sight-fight-us-military-must-see-problem-with-bible-engravings/[/url])
Secular Coalition Demands DOD End Contract with Trijicon ([url]http://www.secular.org/node/178[/url])
“In God We Trust”
Peter Perfect – Look at your money next time you spend it. I’m not very religious, though I don’t care to call myself atheist. There are as many nutjobs who are religious as there are nutjobs who are atheists. If I own a company, I can put whatever I like on the product. It’s my right. The army can either remove it themselves, or not buy this product. That is their right. Our country’s laws are based off of Christian values (ie you can only marry 1 wife at a time). To deny that would show ignorance.
Muslims are less open to critism than Christians are. What would happen if you drew a picture of the prophet Mohammed? Ask the Dutch cartoonist. Did you read about that? He was attacked in his own country by some Dutch Muslims.
The BBC interviewed British Muslims and they said that they were for limiting freedom of speech so it would be illegal to say anything negative about Islam.
There was that episode on Family Guy that the network refused to show Mohammed for fear it would upset Muslims, yet the show can say whatever they want about Jews, Christians, and anyone else that they’d like.
When I was in Qatar, I paid using U.S. dollars that said “In God We Trust” and I never had a Muslim refuse to accept it. They were more than happy to take the dollar over their own currency! I don’t see much of a difference.
I think you are blowing this way out of proportion and quite frankly, I just don’t seem to care.
The Fort Hood gunman shouted “Allah Akbar” as he murdered people, and while some American Muslims condemned the act, I never heard any of them condemn him for bringing Islam into it.
Mark,
“In god we trust” on the U.S. $1
It didn’t happen until 1955, when Congress passed a law requiring that “In God We Trust” appear on all U.S. coins and currency. The first paper currency with the motto appeared in 1957. This was right after the McCarthy era, during the early Cold War, when no congressperson would dare be seen voting against “God.”
“In God We Trust” Removal Petition ([url]http://www.petitiononline.com/igwtrfc/petition.html[/url])
“under God” in the pledge
The fact is that the words “under God” weren’t part of the original pledge. They were added in 1954. Supporters of the new wording said it would set the United States apart from godless communism. The original Pledge was published in 1892 and did not contain “under god.”
Mark “Our country’s laws are based off of Christian values”
There’s no mention of the bible, Christianity or Jesus in the secular US Constitution.
Mark “Muslims are less open to critism than Christians are. What would happen if you drew a picture of the prophet Mohammed? Ask the Dutch cartoonist. Did you read about that?”
Yes, of course I did but two wrongs don’t make a right. I do not have a vote in any Muslim nation so that’s irrelevant here. If I had a vote in a Muslim nation I would vote for total reformation of Islam and a long list of changes including allowing Muslims to step away from Islam w/o being under penalty of death for being an apostate.
No More Jesus Rifles ([url]http://www.ffrf.org/news/releases/jesus-rifles-stopped/[/url])
“Trijicon, the gunsight maker that has imprinted Bible verse numbers on its scopes, has announced that it will no longer imprint the verses on the sides of scopes intended for the U.S. military, and will also provide clients with the kits to remove the Bible verse numbers from existing scopes. “
“The company also said it would ensure future procurements from the Department of Defense are produced without scripture references, and offer foreign forces that have purchased the products “the same remedies.”
ABCnews ([url]http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/jesus-rifles/story?id=9618791&nwltr=blotter_featureMore[/url])
* Special thanks to the FFRF, Secular Coalition and others for writing formal letters to the Secretary of Defense and President Obama which forced this issue to properly be dealt with.
Mark said:
[There are as many nutjobs who are religious as there are nutjobs who are atheists.]
That statement is a stretch … and unfortunately, I don’t have a source of reliable evidence to prove otherwise. But I think most anyone would agree, looking at the dark history of religion, and the killings and atrocities commited in its name, that the religious nutjobs are more plentiful than the atheists.
I’ve had this same discussion with a friend who is a professional psychologist who deals with a wide cross-section of people … including a regular batch of nutjobs .She pointed out that in her practice, the patients who were the sickest … the patients who were her most difficult cases because they refused to recognise their illness and work toward wellness …were overwhelmingly religious. She also pointed out that the MORE religious a paitient was … the more delusional and SICKER they were. My psychologist friend stated that she had documented this correlation, but respecting privacy laws, couldn’t disclose details.
Mark also said:
[If I own a company, I can put whatever I like on the product. It’s my right. The army can either remove it themselves, or not buy this product. That is their right.]
I’ll bet a sufficiently talented attorney, such as Oliver Wendell Holmes could argue against that statement in court and win. His argument might go something like this:
“Your right to free speech is not without limitations. It’s like the classic example of why you cannot shout fire in a crowded theater when no fire actually exists. In doing so the “free speech” is clearly false and untrue, and incites unjustified panic brining harm to the theater occupants.
Abridgment of free speech is permissible because the bible codes placed on rifle sites likewise present a “clear and present danger” to the American people because the statements in the Bible verses are false (cannot be shown to be true) and have no practical purpose other than to incite a religiously-oriented enemy into bringing impassioned violent “blowback” towards US troops and citizens …. because the enemy is intentionally led to believe that Americans are fighting them for religious reasons.”
Of course, the crafty defense attorney looking to justify his clients irresponsible act would retort, “My client didn’t ACTUALLY shout fire … he merely ran into the theater carrying a fire-ax and dragging a hose. It’s not his fault the theater-goers got the wrong message and paniced.
Mark-
I don’t disagree with you on your second post. I think my issue with some of the previous posts has been the type of argument, not the conclusion. Yours is a solid and logical. I wouldn’t necessarily compare free speech, although I recognize you are probably doing that only in response to a post.
I agree that it is in everyone’s best interest not to add fuel to a fire. I would be interested in knowing to what degree the serial numbers have done this.
I know propaganda has historically been fabricated with things as simple as photographs of soldiers writing their own names on a piece of paper. For this and other reasons I wonder (given absolutely all sides of the argument) if the serial numbers do more good, more harm, or are essentially moot. Someone very close to me (an atheist) served in this war (enlisted pre-war), and actually found some comfort, or at least less anxiety, because some around him were comforted by their various symbols and mantras. Though I don’t presume to be qualified to prove this, it seems reasonable that this improved their ability to operate in difficult situations, many of which involved saving lives rather than taking them.
Recognizing that my friend’s experience is anecdotal in nature, so are many of the heated arguments citing brainwashing, etc.
On the post about religious nut jobs, I wonder if the problem is that many “nut jobs” are attracted to religion because it represents family, unconditional acceptance, or something along those lines. In other words, maybe it isn’t always religion that makes the nutjob, but rather the nutjob that wants dogmatic religion. There are dogmatic atheists who represent this as well. Even sports, gang members, fraternities, and other comparable groups have similar attraction. Maybe the fact that’ religious beliefs” are broad and numerous enough that it is an extremely obvious common bond to note. If 92% of Americans believe in a “higher power” of some sort, then it stands to reason that at least 92% of criminals, fanatics, and “nut jobs” do too.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/23/ST2008062300818.html
For Peter- Whether the serial numbers in question are right, wrong, or inconsequential, issues such as these are incredible opportunities to approach and engage those who disagree with us in the way that we would like to be approached–with openness and after privately questioning our own train of thought in order to ensure our discussions are motivated by cooperation and not anger. If I were discussing the same issue with Trijicon supporters, I would feel compelled to challenge and question them as well. It’s the best way to sort our personal feelings from the irrefutable truths.
God loves his enemies
[b]God loves his enemies[/b]
I would first of all like to say that I bare no hostility towards you as an unbeliever in Jehovah the God of the Bible who in His own words claims that He alone is God and there is no other before or after Him. I believe God at His word for one reason only and that is because God has revealed Himself to me as God, apart from that I would have no reason to believe in Him or His word whatsoever. Until God does reveal Himself to you, you will continue to disbelieve. That is the natural state of everyone that is born into this world. It is our human (sinful) nature not to believe in God as God. It is in our nature to worship ourselves, other people, or false gods that we have created in our own image, God calls this idolatry. No one wants to believe they are a sinner, no wants to believe that they have a need for forgiveness and salvation through Jesus Christ and especially no wants to believe that they are God’s born enemy until they are Reborn in through Jesus Christ. That is why the Jews crucified Him. Jesus convicted these men of their sins, they became afraid of His power and influence over their church and so they saught to destroy Him hoping that all would soon forget. Well here we are 2000 years later and many people still believe in Him and praise Him for who and what he has proclaimed Himself to be, the Son of God, the Messiah, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the One whom through all things have been created and are sustained even now, He is salvation for all who call upon His name and believe, and for those that have been touched by Him, life will never be the same, to be touched by Christ is to breath the first true breath of life. One is made a new creature in Christ whereas before we were once dead in our sins and unbelief, we are made alive through God’s grace and in the forgiveness of our sins we are translated into the Kingdom of light through the reception of God’s Holy Spirit. We are made one with Christ and receive in Him an inheritance that is eternal, and none can take us away from His love and his hand.
The point being God has yet to call you as His own and so you are still dead in your unbelief and unto God you are an enemy and yet He still loves you for He gave His Son to save you if only you believe. No one can save themselves and no one can win in an arguement with God, He is all power, all glory, all life, He is the one that we were all created by and for. He created us only to love us and be loved by us. And I understand that this may anger you but I want you to know that God does love you even now He is reaching out to you to call upon His name and that of His Son Jesus that you might be saved.
The problem is that you are set in your ways and your beliefs, but from where I am standing your unbelief cannot protect you from the righteous judgement of almighty God. It was Christ that died and suffered our judgement so that we could receive His reward. and His life. He died so that we could live. and it is my earnest hope and prayer that the Lord Jesus Christ would touch your heart tonight and that you could know a love so real, so beautiful and emcompassing. and have in Christ the One and only truth that can set you free now and forever. It’s alright if you think I am crazy every non believer does, the Pharisees said of Christ that He was insane and demon posessed. I feel that anyone who doesn’t believe is equally insane and am tormented for those who pass into the grave in their sins, forever dying away from and never knowing the beautiful love of Jesus Christ who lives in me.
God Bless You!
whoops
I meant to address Jimmy on some of those, not Mark. My bad. Sorry if confusing.