Freethought Nation

21 thoughts on “No, Zeitgeist has not been refuted!”

1. Tortured attempts
   Are these the clowns of Zeitgeist Challenge? Oh well what could I say. I think even if we dig more evidence to back up ZG1.1, some self-serving narcissists will go to Ad Hominem route or even convince people to hitch the bandwagon. Besides, it is not only Acharya S who wrote about the mythical nature of religions.

   “Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.”-George Carlin

   1. While I’m not sure about the other claims I did check out Horus with the help of Professor Peter Manuelian, department head of Egyptology and Near East studies at Harvard. He explained those alleged parallels simply don’t exist. Even if they did there is no way early church fathers could have found out about them as the Egyptian religious mysteries were reserved for Egyptian royalty and the elite priesthood. Lastly the heiroglyphs at the tomb of Seti I describing Isis as a virgin in highly inaccurate. The heiroglyph she points out is for maiden or first. You can’t use an English dictionary or thesaurus to make that jump in an ancient Egyptian dialect.

      If the Horus parallels are any portent of things to come while examining subsequent parallels I would strongly suggest distancing yourselves from this material.

      1. Unfortunately, if the professor said that, he is ignorant and doesn’t know what he is talking about. It is very typical of professional scholars at major universities like Harvard – which started out as a Christian seminary – to block out the data in their own minds and to ignore their own fellow scholars elsewhere. For him to be correct, he needs to ignore the below quotes – if he can ignore all these professional Egyptologists, we can ignore him.

         If you want to see the actual data drawn from primary sources, rather than relying on credentialism that reveals professional scholars’ ignorance, feel free to read my nearly 600-page book Christ in Egypt. The evidence this professor states doesn’t exist is in my book, culled from the Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, Book of the Dead and other primary sources, as well as the opinions of highly qualified scholars.

         Even if they did there is no way early church fathers could have found out about them as the Egyptian religious mysteries were reserved for Egyptian royalty and the elite priesthood. Lastly the heiroglyphs at the tomb of Seti I describing Isis as a virgin in highly inaccurate. The heiroglyph [sic] she points out is for maiden or first. You can’t use an English dictionary or thesaurus to make that jump in an ancient Egyptian dialect.

         To suggest that the early Church fathers didn’t and couldn’t know about Egyptian religion is utter nonsense. They could, and they did. By their era, very influential members of the Roman Empire, including several emperors, had been tutored in Egyptian religion, which had spread throughout the Empire. Anyone not knowing that fact is not an expert on the era and location.

         Twisting the meaning of hwnt or “virgin” to suit yourself and to avoid parallels hardly qualifies as scientific scholarship. I cite EGYPTOLOGISTS’ translations of this word, and to dismiss it is simply a way of upholding your own cultic beliefs. Isis clearly was considered a VIRGIN MOTHER, and this virgin-mother motif predates Christianity by thousands of years, so such deflections only serve to fool yourself. We can’t use Egyptian-English dictionaries now? Please tell that to the Egyptologists who compose them. How ridiculous and desperate.

         In Egyptian Religion (251) Egyptologist Dr. Siegfried Morenz, a director of the Institute of Egyptology at the University of Leipzig, declared:

         “The influence of Egyptian religion on posterity is mainly felt through Christianity and its antecedents.”

         In Osiris: Death and Afterlife of a God (xii), Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mosjov asserts Egyptian (and Greek) influence and locates the early Christian effort at Alexandria, Egypt, a city I contend also was the crucible of Christianity:

         “It was in Roman Alexandria (30 BC-AD 394) that the new Christian religion blossomed, inspired by the writings of the Egyptian, Greek and Jewish philosophers.”

         The parallels between Egyptian religion and Christianity are discussed in detail by Egyptologist Dr. Erik Hornung, a former professor of Egyptology at the University of Basel who has been called “the world’s leading authority” on ancient Egyptian religious texts. In his book “The Valley of the Kings” (9), Hornung writes:

         “…it is not improbable that even early Christian texts were influenced by ideas and images from the New Kingdom religious books.”

         In The Secret Lore of Egypt: Its Impact on the West (73), Hornung is adamant about Egyptian influence on Christianity:

         “Notwithstanding its superficial rejection of everything pagan, early Christianity was deeply indebted to ancient Egypt. In particular, the lively picture of the ancient Egyptian afterlife left traces in Christian texts; thus, among the Copts, and later in Islam, we encounter a fiery hell quite like that of the Egyptians… The descensus [descent] of Jesus, which played no role in the early church, was adopted into the official Credo after 359, thanks to apocryphal legends that again involved Egypt. Christ became the sun in the realm of the dead, for his descent into the netherworld had its ultimate precursor in the nightly journey of the ancient Egyptian sun god Re…”

         As part of Egypt’s impact on the West, which includes Rome, Hornung (SLE, 70) discusses the Egyptian religion’s inroads into the highest strata of Roman society during the alleged time of Christianity’s founding, influencing several Roman emperors such as Claudius, Nero, Otho, Vespasian and Titus:

         “Claudius [10 BCE-54 AD/CE] was also positively disposed toward Egyptian religion, and Nero expressed interest in the sources of the Nile. Nero also had an Egyptian teacher, Chaeromon, who saw to the dissemination of Egyptian knowledge at Rome. According to [Roman historian] Suetonius, Otho (69 C.E.) was the first Roman emperor to participate publicly in the cult of Isis. Notwithstanding his well-known stinginess, Vespasian [9-79 AD/CE] dedicated a large statue of the Nile to Rome, after a Nile miracle occurred during his visit to Alexandria in the year 69. Together with his son Titus, he spent the night before their triumph over Judea (71 C.E.) in the temple of the Roman Isis, which was first depicted on Roman coins that year. Titus is probably the anonymous ‘pharaoh’ depicted in front of the Apis bull in the catacombs of Kom el-Shuqafa in Alexandria. From the reign of Domitian on, Apis was represented on imperial coins.”

         There is much more, laid out again in my book. I would suggest you pay attention to the Egyptologists above and in my book, and distance yourself from biased and ignorant professional scholars.

         1. I just wanted to say that I enjoyed your retort to the Harvard professors’ clearly biased assessment. I will also add that scholars are also indoctrinated and therefore actually believe wholeheartedly what they are saying. Unfortunately, regular people take their word for it based on their credentials.

         2. Yet you have no credible sources to affirm the idiotic claims that Horus was born of a virgin or that he was born on December 25th? Nothing about him being crucified or rising from the dead? A lot of really stupid claims were made here, but you aren’t able to back any of them up.

            You then ask us to dismiss the Historians that invalidate your fringe beliefs, because obviously the Harvard professor must be so blinded (by the fact that Harvard was once a Christian university) that we should just dismiss him and take the word of you, some crazy person on the Internet.

            Got it.

            1. GreenSlugg “Yet you have no credible sources to affirm the idiotic claims that Horus was born of a virgin”

               LOL, you’ve clearly never studied the subject and thoroughly embarrass yourself by making such demonstrably false claims:

               “The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (Hwn.t wr.t) three times 682c, 728a, 2002a”

               “In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: “I am the great virgin”
               – Christ in Egypt, page 152

               * Pyramid Texts are 4,400 years old

               “Isis came to be worshipped as the Primordial Virgin and their child as the Savior of the World.”
               – Egyptologist, Dr. Bojana Mojsov, page xii “Osiris Death and Afterlife of a God”

               “Here’s a video clip of modern Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov admitting parallels between Osiris &/or Horus with Jesus. And, at 5:30 you’ll see a stone carving of Isis as she hovers over Osiris in the form of a bird to receive the divine seed (notice there’s no ‘member’) of Osiris. Mojsov then says, “It’s a miraculous birth of the savior child.””

               Osiris: Pagan Origins of Christianity
               https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZmvBzBpt14

               Below are quotes from very highly respected Egyptologists:

               “The miraculous birth of Jesus could be viewed as analogous to that of Horus, whom Isis conceived posthumously from Osiris, and Mary was closely connected with Isis by many other shared characteristics.”
               – Renowned Egyptologist Dr. Erik Hornung

               “…it is not improbable that even early Christian texts were influenced by ideas and images from the New Kingdom religious books.”
               – Renowned Egyptologist Dr. Erik Hornung

               “The influence of Egyptian religion on posterity is mainly felt through Christianity and its antecedents.”
               – Egyptologist, Dr. Siegfried Morenz, director of the Institute of Egyptology at the University of Leipzig

               “In this picture we have the Annunciation, the Conception, the Birth, and the Adoration, as described in the First and Second Chapters of Luke’s Gospel; and as we have historical assurance that the chapters in Matthew’s Gospel which contain the Miraculous Birth of Jesus are an after addition not in the earliest manuscripts, it seems probable that these two poetical chapters in Luke may also be unhistorical, and be borrowed from the Egyptian accounts of the miraculous birth of their kings.”
               – Dr. Samuel C. Sharpe, highly respected Egyptologist and translator of the Bible

               ISIS IS A VIRGIN MOTHER!!!
               http://freethoughtnation.com/isis-is-a-virgin-mother/

               Was Horus “Crucified?”
               http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html

               Even more honest Christian scholars concede that the evidence for Jesus is “scanty and problematic”:

               “Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent upon these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic”
               – F.F. Bruce, a founder of the modern evangelical movement, Who Was Jesus?, page 84, by Murdock

               “…Christian scholars over the centuries have admitted that … “there are parallels between the Mysteries and Christianity”1 and that “the miracle stories of the Gospels do in fact parallel literary forms found in pagan and Jewish miracle stories,”2 “…According to Form Criticism the Gospels are more like folklore and myth than historical fact.”3

               1. Metzger, HLS, 8.
               2. Meier, II, 536.
               3. Geisler, CA, 320.

               – Who Was Jesus? 259

               “The Gospels are neither histories nor biographies, even within the ancient tolerances for those genres.”
               – Dr. John Dominic Crossan, Who Was Jesus? 24

               “The only definite account of his life and teachings is contained in the four Gospels of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All other historical records of the time are silent about him. The brief mentions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have been generally regarded as not genuine and as Christian interpolations; in Jewish writings there is no report about Jesus that has historical value. Some scholars have even gone so far as to hold that the entire Jesus story is a myth…”

               – The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, Who Was Jesus? 84

               The Truth about Judeo-Christianity
               http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=16665#p16665

               Primary sources and scholar commentary on them support Zeitgeist Part 1:

               ZG1 Sourcebook (transcript, sources, citations & images)
               http://stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitgeistsourcebook.pdf

               Primary Sources & Scholars cited in the ZG1 Sourcebook
               http://www.truthbeknown.com/zeitgeistsources.html

               Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence
               http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2997

               Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes concerning ‘Zeitgeist, Part 1’
               http://truthbeknown.com/chrisforbeszeitgeist.html

               Mythicism and the Ph.D.: A Brief History
               http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=18805

               Astrotheology of the Ancients
               http://stellarhousepublishing.com/astrotheology.html

               Star Worship of the Ancient Israelites
               http://astrotheology.net/star-worship-of-the-ancient-israelites/

               Zodiacs on the Floor of Synagogues
               http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4148

               2,750-year-old solar-aligned temple discovered in Israel
               http://freethoughtnation.com/2750-year-old-solar-aligned-temple-discovered-in-israel/

               GreenSlugg “You then ask us to dismiss the Historians that invalidate your fringe beliefs, because obviously the Harvard professor must be so blinded (by the fact that Harvard was once a Christian university) that we should just dismiss him and take the word of you, some crazy person on the Internet.”

               LOL, you simply have no idea what you’re talking about, GreenSlugg, apparently due to the fact that you clearly have not read a single article or book on the subject beyond the bible and have no idea how academia even works and don’t care because you are only here to shore-up your Christian faith and euphoria at all costs – even if it means being dishonest – Jesus would be ashamed of you:

               “Scholars in general can also be notoriously cautious, particularly when it comes to stepping on the toes of mainstream institutions, especially those of a religious bent—and there have been many such establishments, including major universities like Yale and Harvard, both of which started as Christian divinity schools.1 Numerous other institutions in the Christian world were either founded specifically as Christian universities and colleges or had seminaries attached to them. As stated on the Princeton Theological Seminary website, regarding early American education:

               “Within the last quarter of the eighteenth century, all learning…could be adequately taught and studied in the schools and colleges, nearly all of which were church initiated.”2

               – CIE 505

               1. See the Yale Divinity School website: “Training for the Christian Ministry was a main purpose in the founding of Yale College in 1701.” (“History of Yale Divinity School.”) See also the Harvard Divinity School website: “The origins of Harvard Divinity School and the study of theology at Harvard can be traced back to the very beginning of Harvard College.” (“Harvard Divinity School–History and Mission.”) http://www.hds.harvard.edu/history.html
               2. “About Princeton Theological Seminary–History of the Seminary.”
               http://www.ptsem.edu/About/mission.php

               Scholars who’ve actually studied Acharya’s work tend to be supportive:

               “I find it undeniable that many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations.” “I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock”
               – Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D’s

               Earl Doherty defers to Acharya for the subject of astrotheology:

               “A heavenly location for the actions of the savior gods, including the death of Christ, would also have been influenced by most religions’ ultimate derivation from astrotheology, as in the worship of the sun and moon. For this dimension of more remote Christian roots, see the books of Acharya S”
               – Earl Doherty, Jesus: Neither God Nor Man, (2009) page 153

               “Your scholarship is relentless! …the research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration.”
               – Dr. Ken Feder, Professor of Archaeology

               “…In recent months or over the last year or so I have interviewed Frank Zindler and Richard Carrier and David Fitzgerald and Robert Price all on the issue of mythicism … when I spoke to these people I asked for their expertise collectively and what I got, especially from Fitzgerald and Robert Price, was that we should be speaking to tonights guest D.M. Murdock,author of ‘Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver’.”
               – Aron Ra, The Ra Men podcast EP10 – Did Moses Exist? with D.M. Murdock

               “I’ve known people with triple Ph.D’s who haven’t come close to the scholarship in Who Was Jesus?”
               – Pastor David Bruce, M.Div

               “…I have found her scholarship, research, knowledge of the original languages, and creative linkages to be breathtaking and highly stimulating.”
               – Rev. Dr. Jon Burnham, Pastor

               “I can recommend your work whole-heartedly!”
               – Dr. Robert Eisenman

      2. It is always interesting to note that the authors of Zeitgeist debunks and their readers who are desperate to hear what they want to hear. Kinda like individuals who want to believe that eating primarily meat, dairy and eggs along with some vegatables, but no fruit or whole grains is actually healthy. Anyway, those authors and readers should take 15 minutes to read the supportive material which clearly indicates that the ancient stories and mythology surrounding sun gods from various cultures and religions were passed along verbally and scribed as interchangable stories. Because the whole point is that the underlying basis and framework for these sun gods is essentially the same reference to astrological events. It is also interesting to see these critiques apply a strict literal filter to these ancient writings that they would not and could not apply to the bible. In fact when confronted with clearl literary inconsistencies they quickly note that the text was a symbolic reference. Moder evangelical christians personify and promote the social pathology that a deeply held belief is equivalent to scientific facts and the truth. For example, if you believe that the earth is not warming due to the burning of fossil fuels, then it isn’t true despite the overwhelming scientific evidence that it is. And if you believe that ALL muslims, due to their religion, want to kill christians, despite the evidence that the radical groups in the middle east kill far, far more muslims than christians. And that becaus of that fact their motives may be no more sinister that those of the US in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Central American, etc. That beign to control the vast oil reserves in the region and thus possess the power and wealth it represent. For those critiques you haven’t read the Zeitgeist supportive material your really do not know what your talking about and merely reinforce why it is the greatest STORY ever told, over and over again.

2. LOL, yes, “clowns” indeed, Chris White and Keith Trash of the ‘Zeitgeist Challenge’ are fundamentalist Christians out to shore up their faith and euphoria AT ALL COSTS – even if it means being dishonest and smearing real people to prop up their religious bigotry. They would love a new modern day Inquisition and DARK AGE to rid the world of non-believers if they could. They’ve been debunked repeatedly.

   Here’s one example of the crap that they pull:

   History Rewritten? Horus and the Twelve “Disciples” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRBrKa9eKcc

   Here’s more:

   Chris White and his ZG Challenge Debunked
   http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3868

   Keith “Truth” (TRASH) is a useful idiot
   http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2622 (see Keith get caught using a sock puppet account)

   Jesus & Horus Parallels and KingDavid8.com Exposed
   http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3206

   ‘Zeitgeist Refuted’ by Elliot Nesch, Debunked
   http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3063

   http://vimeo.com/18682868

   What’s even worse than the above Christian apologists are the clueless atheist clowns who regurgitate similar pathetic arguments without realizing it. It’s an embarrassment to freethinkers and atheists:

   Conspiracy science aka skeptic project:

   Skeptic Project / Con-Sci on ZG1, DEBUNKED
   http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2609

   I especially love this post showing the utter ignorance of Ed Winston (Captain Ferseus) and his ‘skeptic Project’ and his claims regarding “Ferseus
   http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19839#p19839%5B/url%5D).”

   Skeptic Magazine Critique of Zeitgeist Part 1, Debunked
   http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2541

   Dawkins tweets Jesus mythicism, Zeitgeist
   http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4429

   Richard Carrier on Zeitgeist Part 1
   http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3381

   Over 80 Rebuttals to Bart Ehrman’s Anti-Mythicist Book ‘Did Jesus Exist?’
   http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=25719#p25719

   JMichael “Besides, it is not only Acharya S who wrote about the mythical nature of religions.”

   That’s true and those who’ve actually read her books already know that she documents the history of their work to examine it for verification and then, build upon it.

   The History of Mythicism
   http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/mythicism.html

   Evemerist vs. Mythicist Position
   http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2160

   Why I am A Mythicist
   http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4344

   The Mythicist Position
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63BNKhGAVRQ

   1. Sure thing *sighs* that’s why you or anyone else hasn’t taken the zeitgeist challenge money after all these years. The money is still on the table and will always be because you can’t prove your claims. If you can please school me I’d love to get that money. Seriously

      1. Jeremy, the only thing you’ve proven is that you didn’t read the article or any of the comments and just did a drive by post dump. We’ve dealt with this repeatedly – the Zeitgeist challenge crowd have no real money to put up … why not $100 million if they’re so sure – they’ve been utterly dishonest as their challenge was met long ago – they simply have no intention of ever being honest. They’re only out to shore up their Christian faith and euphoria at all costs – even if it means being dishonest. Jesus would be ashamed of you.

         Even highly respected Christian scholars disagree with you:

         “…Christian scholars over the centuries have admitted that … “there are parallels between the Mysteries and Christianity”1 and that “the miracle stories of the Gospels do in fact parallel literary forms found in pagan and Jewish miracle stories,” 2 “…According to Form Criticism the Gospels are more like folklore and myth than historical fact.”3

         1. Metzger, HLS, 8.
         2. Meier, II, 536.
         3. Geisler, CA, 320.

         – Who Was Jesus? 259

         Rabbi: Did Jesus actually exist?
         http://freethoughtnation.com/rabbi-did-jesus-actually-exist/

         Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
         http://www.amazon.com/Moses-Exist-Myth-Israelite-Lawgiver/dp/0979963184/truthbeknownfoun

         “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

         – Sir Stephen Henry Roberts, Historian (1901-71)

         “This book is a slightly revised version of my doctoral dissertation entitled “Solar Worship in the Biblical World” which was submitted to the Graduate School of Yale University in the Spring of 1989. As may be judged from the title of that work, I had at one time planned to cover more territory than sun worship in ancient Israel, but found the material pertaining to ancient Israel so vast that I never got beyond it.”

         – Rev. Dr. J. Glen Taylor, “Yahweh and the Sun: Biblical and Archaeological Evidence for Sun Worship in Ancient Israel” (1993)

         “At Stonehenge in England and Carnac in France, in Egypt and Yucatan, across the whole face of the earth are found mysterious ruins of ancient monuments, monuments with astronomical significance. These relics of other times are as accessible as the American Midwest and as remote as the jungles of Guatemala. Some of them were built according to celestial alignments; others were actually precision astronomical observatories … Careful observation of the celestial rhythms was compellingly important to early peoples, and their expertise, in some respects, was not equaled in Europe until three thousand years later.”

         – Dr. Edwin Krupp, astronomer and director at Griffith Park Observatory in Los Angeles, ‘In Search of Ancient Astronomies,’ page xiii. Also quoted in “Suns of God,” page 26

         “I find it undeniable that many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations.” “I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock”

         – Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D’s

         Star Worship of the Ancient Israelites
         http://astrotheology.net/star-worship-of-the-ancient-israelites/

         Jesus Christ, Sun of Righteousness
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faILHU82-Cw

         ; )

3. Well now that we do have the resource of the Internet at our finger tips, it’s a lot easier to do your own research instead of relying on the Zionist based sources to vet the controversy.
   Let’s face it, we’ve been lied to all throughout history. History is a lie as it is written by the ones that beat down and oppressed the human race.

4. And now the racists weigh in. When things don’t go your way, blame the Jews. Oh, excuse me, Zionists. Big difference, right?

   1. Lars, your comment show how very little you know.

   2. Yes, Lars, there IS a big difference. There are many non-Jewish Zionists and non-Zionist Jews all around the world. Jews are an ancient group of people; Zionism is a late 20th century idea that is not supported by the Jewish holy teachings.

5. I don’t care about all that rambling, I know God is real not because what my mom are grandma told are the preacher told me, I feel him, I know him, I seem his works of maricle in my life, I have a personal relationship with God, the truth of it all will be revealed believe that.And that’s all I need to know. PEACE to all

   1. You do realise that you are describing a mental illness?

6. Yeshua wasn’t born on 25th of Dec. so I don’t get the point… the Catholic version of “jesus” is just another Jesus about which Bible clearly warns. Also take into account- IF SATAN knows the future coming of the redemption through the Messiah, the One who would crush Satan’s head (See the story in Genesis, the Fall account), then it is nothing strange that Satan as the master of lies would pretend to present some falsified version of his messiahs before the True Messiah would come! The same applies to nowadays! Before the Second Coming of the Actual Messiah Yeshua, the false messiah would emerge.. The Bible call shim- the final Antichrist.. he will claim deity in the new age sense, i.e. we are all gods! 😀 The same old lie from the Garden, from the very beginning..
   Simple. 🙂

   1. thank you! thank you for saying Truth.

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