Newly discovered ancient Christian magical spell reveals Egyptian influence
An ancient Christian magical spell or charm from the sixth century has been found in an old papyrus manuscript housed at the John Rylands Library in Manchester, England. The discoverer, Dr. Roberta Mazza, believes the Greek charm, originally unearthed in Egypt, was part of an amulet to be worn or carried as protection, as reported by Phys.org:
The remarkable document uniquely contains some of the earliest documented references to the Last Supper and ‘manna from heaven’. It is the earliest surviving document to use the Christian Eucharist liturgy – which outlines the Last Supper – as a protective charm….
It shows how Christians adopted the ancient Egyptian practice of wearing amulets to protect the wearer against dangers. This practice of writing charms on pieces of papyrus was continued by the Christians who replaced the prayers to Egyptian and Greco-Roman gods with extracts from the Bible….
The document had been held at the library since around 1901, but its significance had not been realized until Dr Mazza spotted it. She said: ‘This is an important and unexpected discovery as it’s one of the first recorded documents to use magic in the Christian context and the first charm ever found to refer to the Eucharist – the last supper – as the manna of the Old Testament. The text of the amulet is an original combination of biblical passages including Psalm 78:23-24 and Matthew 26:28-30 among others.
‘To this day, Christians use passages from the bible as protective charms so our amulet marks the start of an important trend in Christianity….
‘It’s doubly fascinating because the amulet maker clearly knew the Bible, but made lots of mistakes: some words are misspelled and others are in the wrong order. This suggests that he was writing by heart rather than copying it.
‘It’s quite exciting. Thanks to this discovery, we now think that the knowledge of the Bible was more embedded in sixth century AD Egypt than we previously realized.’…
The full text of the papyrus:
Fear you all who rule over the earth.
Know you nations and peoples that Christ is our God.
For he spoke and they came to being, he commanded and they were created; he put everything under our feet and delivered us from the wish of our enemies.
Our God prepared a sacred table in the desert for the people and gave manna of the new covenant to eat, the Lord’s immortal body and the blood of Christ poured for us in remission of sins.
Despite such discoveries demonstrating the relationship between Christianity and the massive and long-lived Egyptian civilization, which dominated the Mediterranean for centuries, there remain in the contentious fields of Christian origins and Bible scholarship those who insist that Egypt had little to no influence on Christianity!
Egyptologists on Egypt’s Role in the Origins of Christianity
In reality and as shown by the enormous amount of evidence in my book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, there are many important and profound parallels between the Egyptian religion and Christianity – some of them quite stunning, in fact. Indeed, many Egyptologists themselves have noted these correspondences, and some of these scholars were so certain of a relationship that they tried to prove the Egyptians had anticipated Christianity in its doctrines and traditions.
In this regard, in Egyptian Religion (251) Egyptologist Dr. Siegfried Morenz, a director of the Institute of Egyptology at the University of Leipzig, declared:
The influence of Egyptian religion on posterity is mainly felt through Christianity and its antecedents.
In Osiris: Death and Afterlife of a God (xii), Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mosjov asserts Egyptian (and Greek) influence and locates the early Christian effort at Alexandria, Egypt, a city I contend also was the crucible of Christianity:
It was in Roman Alexandria (30 BC-AD 394) that the new Christian religion blossomed, inspired by the writings of the Egyptian, Greek and Jewish philosophers.
The parallels between Egyptian religion and Christianity are discussed in detail by Egyptologist Dr. Erik Hornung, a former professor of Egyptology at the University of Basel who has been called “the world’s leading authority” on ancient Egyptian religious texts. In his book The Valley of the Kings (9), Hornung writes:
…it is not improbable that even early Christian texts were influenced by ideas and images from the New Kingdom religious books.
In The Secret Lore of Egypt: Its Impact on the West (73), Hornung is adamant about Egyptian influence on Christianity:
Notwithstanding its superficial rejection of everything pagan, early Christianity was deeply indebted to ancient Egypt. In particular, the lively picture of the ancient Egyptian afterlife left traces in Christian texts; thus, among the Copts, and later in Islam, we encounter a fiery hell quite like that of the Egyptians… The descensus [descent] of Jesus, which played no role in the early church, was adopted into the official Credo after 359, thanks to apocryphal legends that again involved Egypt. Christ became the sun in the realm of the dead, for his descent into the netherworld had its ultimate precursor in the nightly journey of the ancient Egyptian sun god Re…
Here we see also the solar origins of the Christ myth. More information on that subject can be found in my ebook Jesus as the Sun throughout History and video “Jesus Christ, Sun of Righteousness.”
Egyptian Influence on Rome
As part of Egypt’s impact on the West, which includes Rome, Hornung (SLE, 70) discusses the Egyptian religion’s inroads into the highest strata of Roman society during the alleged time of Christianity’s founding, influencing several Roman emperors such as Claudius, Nero, Otho, Vespasian and Titus:
Claudius [10 BCE-54 AD/CE] was also positively disposed toward Egyptian religion, and Nero expressed interest in the sources of the Nile. Nero also had an Egyptian teacher, Chaeromon, who saw to the dissemination of Egyptian knowledge at Rome. According to [Roman historian] Suetonius, Otho (69 C.E.) was the first Roman emperor to participate publicly in the cult of Isis. Notwithstanding his well-known stinginess, Vespasian [9-79 AD/CE] dedicated a large statue of the Nile to Rome, after a Nile miracle occurred during his visit to Alexandria in the year 69. Together with his son Titus, he spent the night before their triumph over Judea (71 C.E.) in the temple of the Roman Isis, which was first depicted on Roman coins that year. Titus is probably the anonymous ‘pharaoh’ depicted in front of the Apis bull in the catacombs of Kom el-Shuqafa in Alexandria. From the reign of Domitian on, Apis was represented on imperial coins.
There is much more about the Egyptian influence throughout the Roman Empire during the period in question, a substantial amount of which I provide in Christ in Egypt.
Egypt and Judaism
In my book Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver, I include a significant amount of data demonstrating the centuries-long influence of Egypt on Christianity’s Semitic precursor, Judaism. This correlation has been noticed also by Egyptologists, such as respected German scholar Dr. Jan Assmann, a professor of Egyptology at the University of Heidelberg and the University of Konstanz, who “suggests that the ancient Egyptian religion had a more significant influence on Judaism than is generally acknowledged.”
Another Egyptologist who points out Egyptian priority of “Judeo-Christian” concepts is Dr. Ogden Goelet, a professor of Egyptian language and culture at New York and Columbia Universities. In his well-known edition of The Egyptian Book of the Dead (18), Goelet states:
The Book of the Dead promised resurrection to all mankind, as a reward for righteous living, long before Judaism and Christianity embraced that concept.
To assert that Judaism and Christianity “embraced” the notion of resurrection indicates Goelet believes the idea was passed along from the Egyptian religion to Judaism and Christianity.
Egyptian and Christian Ritual
The Egyptian influence on Christianity includes rituals, as mentioned in “The Baptism of the Pharaoh” by Sir Dr. Alan H. Gardiner, one of the premier British Egyptologists of his day:
The analogy of our rite to that of Christian baptism is close enough to justify the title given to this article. In both cases a symbolic cleansing by means of water serves as initiation into a properly legitimated religious life.
To insist that correlations in doctrines, rituals and traditions between these highly intertwined religious cults are either non-existent or unimportant ranks as fallacious and unscientific.
Osiris, Isis and Horus
Important Egyptian myths too are indicated for Christian origins. In Death and Salvation in Ancient Egypt (115-6), Assmann remarks:
“Salvation” and “eternal life” are Christian concepts, and we might think that the Egyptian myth can all too easily be viewed through the lens of Christian tradition. On the contrary, in my opinion, Christian myth is itself thoroughly stamped by Egyptian tradition, by the myth of Isis and Osiris, which from the very beginning had to do with salvation and eternal life. It thus seems legitimate to me to reconstruct the Egyptian symbolism with the help of Christian concepts. As with Orpheus and Eurydice, the constellation of Isis and Osiris can also be compared with Mary and Jesus. The scene of the Pieta, in which Mary holds the corpse of the crucified Jesus on her lap and mourns, is a comparable depiction of the body-centered intensity of female grief, in which Mary is assisted by Mary Magdalene, just as Isis is assisted by Nephthys. Jesus also descended into the realm of death, though he did not remain there… Osiris remained in the netherworld, but he was resurrected and alive…
Hornung also discusses the influence of Egyptian myths on Christian tradition and iconography:
…The Christian slayer of the dragon had its model in the triumph of Horus over Seth, and there was a smooth transition from the image of the nursing Isis, Isis lactans, to that of Maria lactans. The miraculous birth of Jesus could be viewed as analogous to that of Horus, whom Isis conceived posthumously from Osiris, and Mary was closely connected with Isis by many other share characteristics…. (Secret Lore of Egypt, 75)
He further says:
There was an obvious analogy between the Horus child and the baby Jesus and the care they received from their sacred mothers; long before Christianity, Isis had borne the epithet ‘mother of the god.’ (SLE, 60)
Another modern professional scholar, Dr. Richard A. Gabriel, specifies the influence on Christianity as coming from the cult of the Egyptian god Osiris (Jesus the Egyptian, 2):
…the principles and precepts of the Osiran theology of Egypt are virtually identical in content and application to the principles and precepts of Christianity as they present themselves in the Jesus saga.
In this same regard, Dr. James S. Curl, a professor emeritus at the Queen’s University of Belfast, concludes (The Egyptian Revival, 66):
The Christian religion, it might be proposed, owes as much to the Nile as it does to the Jordan, and for the Church Alexandria should be at least as important as Jerusalem (whereas Rome absorbed influences from both cities). In both Western and Eastern iconography the attributes of Isis survived. Coptic stelai show the Mother and Child, identified as Christian by the Greek crosses on either side of the head, but the basic iconography of the image is that of Isis and Horus, translated into Mary and Jesus….
Parallels Known for Decades to Centuries
These various modern scholars confirm the contentions of older authorities, such as Sir Dr. E.A. Wallis Budge, a well-respected Egyptologist who ran the Department of Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities at the British Museum. Budge wrote many times about the blatantly obvious correspondences between the Egyptian religion and Christianity, emphasizing the deities Osiris, Isis and Horus, as in Egyptian Ideas of the Future Life (48):
In Osiris the Christian Egyptians found the prototype of Christ, and in the pictures and statues of Isis suckling her son Horus, they perceived the prototype of the Virgin Mary and her Child. Never did Christianity find elsewhere in the world a people whose minds were so thoroughly well prepared to receive its doctrines as the Egyptians.
In Egyptian Tales and Romances (12), Budge comments:
The Christian Trinity ousted the old triads of gods, Osiris and Horus were represented by our Lord Jesus Christ, Isis by the Virgin Mary, Set the god of evil by Diabolus [Satan]…and the various Companies of the Gods by the Archangels, and so on.
Budge’s parallels discussion continues in “The Cult of Isis and the Worship of the Virgin Mary compared” (Legends of Our Lady Mary,1):
It has been well said that the Egyptians were better prepared to receive and accept Christianity than any of the nations round about them. For thousands of years before St. Mark came to Alexandria to preach the Gospel of his Master Christ, the Egyptians believed in Osiris the Man-god who raised himself from the dead. He was held to possess the power of bestowing immortality upon his followers because he had triumphed over Death, and had vanquished the Powers of Darkness. He was the Judge of souls and the supreme lord of the Judgment of the Dead; he was all-wise, all-knowing, all-just, and his decrees were final and absolute. No man could hope to dwell with him in his kingdom unless he had lived a life of moral excellence upon earth, and the only passports to his favour were truth-speaking, honest intent, and the observation of the commands of the Law (Maat), coupled with charity, alms-giving and humane actions…
In The Gods of Egypt (I, xv-xvi), Budge remarks:
…at the last, when [Osiris’s] cult disappeared before the religion of the Man Christ, the Egyptians who embraced Christianity found that the moral system of the old cult and that of the new religion were so similar, and the promises of resurrection and immortality in each so much alike, that they transferred their allegiance from Osiris to Jesus of Nazareth without difficulty. Moreover, Isis and the child Horus were straightway identified with Mary the Virgin and her Son, and in the apocryphal literature of the first few centuries which followed the evangelization of Egypt, several of the legends about Isis and her sorrowful wanderings were made to centre round the Mother of Christ. Certain of the attributes of the sister goddesses of Isis were also ascribed to her, and, like the goddess Neith of Sais, she was declared to possess perpetual virginity. Certain of the Egyptian Christian Fathers gave to the Virgin the title “Theotokos,” or “Mother of God,” forgetting, apparently, that it was an exact translation of neter mut, a very old and common title of Isis.
As we can see, Egyptologists and other scholars across a long period have contended that Christianity was influenced significantly by the Egyptian religion.
The Egyptian Goddess and Virgin Mary
The role of the Egyptian goddess in the formation of Christianity is examined in Isis in the Ancient World by Egyptologist Dr. Reginald E. Witt, a professor at the University of London, who states (273):
The Egyptian goddess who was equally ‘the Great Virgin’ (hwnt) and ‘Mother of the God’ was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus].
In my book Christ in Egypt, I provide much more information on the virgin-mother status of Isis, syncretized to the parthenogenic goddess Neith and others throughout antiquity. I also show how Isis bore the epithet Meri or Mery, meaning “beloved.”
Elsewhere in Isis in the Ancient World (272), Witt makes many other comparisons:
In Hopfner’s invaluable collection of the literary sources, Isis needs more pages of the Index than any other name. A brief glance at her attributes as there listed reveals her sharing titles with the Blessed Virgin whom Catholic Christianity has ever revered as Mother of God. Some of these resemblances may be set aside as [sic] once as commonplace. Yet so many are the parallels that an unprejudiced mind must be struck with the thought that cumulatively the portraits are alike. Indeed, one of the standard encyclopedias of classical mythology specifically deals with Isis identified with the Virgin Mary.
Let us observe a few of the resemblances. Isis and Osiris, as we have so often seen, are mythologically interfused. In the language of the Roman Church the Blessed Virgin Mary is ‘sister and spouse of God: sister of Christ.’ Christian writers identify Sarapis with Joseph and then make Isis ‘wife of Joseph.’ Like her heathen forebear the Catholic Madonna wears a diadem. She too is linked with agricultural fertility…
Witt continues with a long list of comparisons between Mary and not only Isis but also other goddesses, such as the Roman Juno and Minerva. The list of parallels, in fact, goes on for several pages and includes both the Christian and Egyptian figures being at once “the Great Virgin” and “Mother of God.” Witt further remarks:
Convincing examples can be found of the influence on Christian iconography of the figure of Horus/Harpocrates, both in his mother’s company and on his own. The most obvious parallels appear when we compare the ways in which the sacred Mother and Child of Egypt are portrayed and the types of the Theotokos/Madonna together with the infant Jesus in Byzantine and Italian ecclesiastical art…
Witt proceeds to name several pieces of art demonstrating the obvious link between the earlier Egyptian gods and the later Christian characters.
Amulets and Esoterica
Bringing us back to the subject of magical charms and amulets, Hornung discusses other such religious artifacts, revealing even more correlations between Egyptian religion/myth and Christianity:
Devotion to the folk god Bes was especially tenacious. Amulets bearing his image have been found in Christian graves, and Bes and Christ are equated in a Coptic magical papyrus…
On another amulet, one side depicts the head of Christ and scenes from the New Testament, and the other a winged, youthful god (Horus-Shed)… There was also an association of the passion of Jesus with traditions regarding Osiris, especially in the Gospel of Nicodemus, with its detailed description of a descent into Hades. (SLE, 75-76)
Hornung also cites more esoteric and apocryphal Christian traditions corresponding to Egyptian religion, as part of Coptic Christianity:
Many legends grew up around the sojourn of Jesus and his parents in Egypt… He was greeted by dragons and lindworms, whom He affectionately caressed. He causes His mother to wade through a stream without getting her feet wet, commanded a salted fish to leap back into the water, healed the sick with the touch of his diaper, bade graven images to fall from their columns, and so forth. Entirely ‘ancient Egyptian’ was the miracle of the tree, in which a palm bowed down before Mary and her child, so that they might conveniently eat of its fruits, just as the goddess in tombs of the New Kingdom had offered her gifts to the deceased. These legends lie outside of the ‘canonical’ gospels, but they were often illustrated in Christian art of the late Middle Ages…
Naturally enough, Coptic Christians had many legends about Jesus’ stay in their land….
As early as Origen’s Contra Celsus (I, 28), we encounter the claim that it was in Egypt, and specifically as an adult laborer, that Jesus had learned all the magical arts with which he worked miracles and on which he based his divinity. This tradition also occurred in early rabbinic literature, but it was of course suppressed in official Christianity… (SLE, 76)
The Coptic Christian legends of Jesus in Egypt are “natural enough” because there is an enormous amount of correspondence between Christianity and the Egyptian religion.
As we can see, the influence of Egypt on Christianity has been observed for a long time by respected and credentialed authorities. It is therefore irrational and unscholarly to deny this connection, which is likewise well known from the pervasive influence of the Egyptian Gnostics Valentinus and others at Alexandria during the second century, when the Christian effort truly took shape.
From that point on, Egypt repeatedly influenced Christianity, including in its iconography, such as the Egyptian “Madonna and Child” motif of Isis with her baby, Horus. This latest discovery of an Egyptian-inspired Christian magical charm is important and fascinating, as another one small piece of evidence for what amounts to substantial influence from the very beginning of Christianity’s foundation.
Sources/Further Reading
One of world’s earliest Christian charms found
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
128 thoughts on “Newly discovered ancient Christian magical spell reveals Egyptian influence”
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With all of these evidences continuing to sprout that boldly describes the influences of Egyptian religious beliefs on Christianity, one should wonder why none of these information can be found on magazines like Nat Geo or children’s encyclopedias. Me myself being raised as a Catholic and studied at catholic schools for high school and college, I was so dissapointed that no form of comparative religion is taught to me until I watched part 1 of ZG and read Acharya S’ books.
I just wish the UN will convince nations like mine (Philippines) to get rid of blasphemy and heresy laws so that the study and interest to comparative religion will increase. In fact, there are still surviving pre-Christian cultures in my country that still worships the sun and their savior dies on December as the days become shorter though we don’t have winter. The solar deity saves the people from the evil one represented by a snake. Unfortunately, these information are being obscured by Christians and keeps on insisting that every religions before Christianity is pagan and influenced by the devil. It is quite ironic though since early Church fathers themselves agree that ther are similarities and the entire Christian doctrine is a rip off from paganism glued into one.
Thank you for your comments. I find your remark here to be fascinating:
Would it be possible to point me in the direction of these pre-Christian cultures in the Philippines? I would love to have that on record, since it dovetails so perfectly with what we know about European, Semitic, Egyptian and others beliefs. This solstice observance may in fact predate the arrival of those ethnicities in the Philippines, as a residual of astrotheology practiced in places where the solstice is more pronounced.
As concerns blasphemy, you may be aware of our petition to the United Nations?
It is indeed unfortunate that major media are not utilizing my research. Those who are discussing the Jesus myth only scratch the surface by relentlessly rehashing arguments against historicity, while they continue to ignore what the myths actually mean. They are missing the boat and wasting everyone’s time. They need to consult me and my works.
I will send you an email once the photos, books, and materials are in my hands. In fact, in my senior year of high school we went on a field trip in the mountains and we we’re accompanied by our theology teacher who is a priest. We just observed the people and their lifestyle and man little did I know they have some crosses too. I don’t know if they could still be considered as “Pre-Chrisitian” since we asked them if they knew Jesus or Christianity in general, they said yes but refused to convert as some greedy people who are Catholics are building houses and churches by stealing their lands. Good thing we’ve got a law to protect these tribes and their culture. However, in the most remote parts of my country there are indeed still pre-Chrisitan like they do not know who Christ is.
In our trip, they’ve got so much reverence to nature so they’ve got a tree god, river and sea god to give fishermen a good catch (it rings a bell) and the most revered at all is their solar god who saves them from the evil one. People in that area would climb the mountain around 4-5 am to give thanks to the sun by burning incense and chanting. In another tribe in that area, people decided to mashup Christianity and pagan beliefs by coming up with a new trinity with Jesus in the center, a pagan goddess (not Mary) but a loving mother dressed up as a guerilla to protect against invaders, and her son who died to save his people from invaders. At the end of the trip, my teacher cited something from Paul’s epistles to Romans, Corinthians, as well as epistle of Timothy on how people should not live like Pagans for their minds are evil. (Meh)
Many if these documentation about pre-Christian gods by both pagans and Christians alike are destroyed. Friars around 1521 to 1800s maintained a political stranglehold and ordered destruction of these pagan monuments. Anyone who refused to be baptized during such times will be killed. Not to mention, Philippines played a part in WWII and that caused massive destruction. Good thing though there a handful of lay people recording these pre-Christian beliefs. It seems to me that many countries have so similar belief systems and so much adoration to the sun. Though WWJ is still my favorite book of yours, that trip flashed back to me and suddenly made sense after I read Christ in Egypt. When I was in high school I was a sucker to everything the priest said like they should be converted but right now I believe that we should protect cultures like these from Islam and Chrisitian fundamentalists.
Hi Stellar House
I was wondering if you were aware of (in which I’m sure you are) of fellow mythicist works Richard Carrier? Dr. Carrier’s hypothesis is that Jesus of the Gospels is a mythologized symbolic representation of Christ of the epistles. He also states the crucifixion which is described in the Gospels are a symbolic representation of a crucifixion which has taken place in the lower heavens i.e the spirit world. My question is do you agree with his hypothesis? And my other question is what do you think about his hypothesis? And how would you compare it to that of your own?
Thanks. Yes, of course I know who Richard Carrier is, since he’s been attacking me dishonestly for the past several years.
All Carrier has “hypothesized” is what the Gnostics claimed of Christ, and he ignores the pre-Christian mythology that they created their Christ from. His work is shallow and worthless overall, as he has declared gleefully that he has no interest in the actual history of Jesus mythicism and is therefore willfully ignorant.
For more information, see:
Stupid things Richard Carrier has said and done
For more information – far more complete information – on the Christ myth, see my writings here at http://FreethoughtNation.com, as well as at http://Truthbeknown.com/ and http://Stellarhousepublishing.com
When one traces back the Gnostic ideas and the many other strains of thought that the fictional Christ character was predicated upon, the gospel story resolves itself largely to nature worship, solar mythology and astrotheology, of which Carrier is likewise admittedly extremely ignorant.
I’m speechless… I’m aghsat… I’m trying to find the rest of the series! Somehow.. the voice reminds me of Wally Cox or Marlon Brando… in their less convincing years. And you’re right that this film is probably the best suited to the Mystery Science Theater type of treatment.
I Want to understand something here. Which data ,months or years jesus christ was born?
Murdock are u atheistic? Just curious what u believe? As far as The Bible Deity u have covered a lot. I’m just curious how much u know about scientific claims like evolution. There’s macro (big changes) & micro (snail changes) in which micro has been proven but where’s the in-between stages & no one’s still changing? How can a universe make itself from nothing. Ever watch “unlocking the mysteries of life”? It’s only science based & by the end they say it makes sense we were created by a creator because everything is about information, including the self propelling little motorized cells. Also what do u think on Aliens? Real or fantasy?
She is neither an antheist nor a theist. You can find her position here http://www.truthbeknown.com/atheist.htm or read her book The Gospel According to Acharya S http://stellarhousepublishing.com/gospel.html
Ok cool. I plan to check it out. Just saw this
Hey what do u think about demons /satanism etc…because supposedly there’s many possessions that have been witnessed& other phenomena, paranormal activity. Also what do u think about when comes to celebrities, the reenactments of illuminati propaganda & Vatican church influences etc…like look at Lady Gaga & Beyonce & Jay-Z. Beyonce wore a Balphomet goat head ring. Jay-Z had a “Thou shall do as wilt” Shirt. They said their not part of Illuminati or Luciferian cults but their exposure says different. Maybe it’s just for sales, controversial hype idk…Jay-Z believes in a one true God but no particular religious sect & says what I have said “we are all looking at the same thing differently” but he further states religion separates claiming he’s about unity. Katie perry was a Devout Christian but now completely changed & this change has got a lot of attention. So of course people are saying it’s the Horus all seeing eye Illuminati, Vatican Church doing. ???
I recommend you reading Christ In Egypt about Set/Seth: Horus’s uncle which represents the evil one. The narrative of Jesus being tempted by Satan can be found on pre-christian literature especially in Egyptian primary sources on how Seth tempted Horus. In fact, Seth is also represented as a serpent named “Sata”. You can read that in CIE
The concept of fallen angel is discussed in her books The Christ Conspiracy (chapter 14) and Who Was Jesus (chapter 192). You should remember that the concept of dark vs light is one astrotheological event that happens everyday. Night is personified as the evil one for predators are more nocturnal that is why the devil is always associated with the snake. http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2475
Thanks Jon. Yes I Do Know THE Concepts & Although There’s Much For ME To Learn I’ve Been Trying on A Non-bias Level With No Preconceived Beliefs & using An Open mind. I have alot of questions that most people can’t answer. I have abstract thinking to my approaches on religion in general because I think it’s perception based like anything. I see most of it as metaphorical.
Jon M, I appreciate your replies I don’t why she doesn’t reply? Do you work for her? Anyway I’m sure if you reviewed my look on things as a whole(which would be extravagantly long to read since it’s all scattered through personal writings & Facebook) one thing I props to your light & dark is I’ve always asked why Did God make carnivores (predators). God seems to like conflict as much as resolution & I believe in opposition to know the differences of things. Look at The Angler Fish in which they didn’t know about back then. It attracts it’s prey with light. If we all pointed up at the same time, which is the right direction of up since the world is spinning & Notice here is where you are because we center the universe around us which its not the reality. There’s many questions I propose as to how did Moses write his own Death account? Why did Egyptians still worship their gods if exodus happened because I wouldn’t have if I survived. Also every hero had an adversary (satan) Moses & Pharoah. David & Goliath, David & Saul. Jesus & Judas etc…I always thought the Adam & Eve story would have been better with a parrot (please don’t steal thisssss) lol
Question I Do Have Though IS What’s the motive for the lies? I know besides Vatican propaganda & revenue but Why were the stories of even the old testament of fragments & scattered in different areas. How did Israel not know it was fake & is it really all fake? The New testament does seem contradictive & why do Christians go by Josephus who never mentions the on slaught of 2 year old children when he recorded All Herod’s crimes? Was Constantine trying to make a universal religion? What I’m trying to ask is why go to extremes of to falsifying the Bible? No one noticed? Or was it all made up? Some say The Gospels didn’t try to fix the contradictions saying it proves itself more because people would have different stories of same event just like if happen to anyone. If 4 kids showed up late for school saying they had a flat tire then the teacher separated them asking all for their accounts then if the story was or not made up it could still have errors as to maybe saying a different tire than the others. If 3 said the same tire then maybe the 4th forgot or didnt recall it but if was entirely made up then they all could have a different tire or get lucky guessing. One thing we know is they all said had a flat tire. I’m merely making this up but saying stories can differ but yes it looks bad for the Gospels & makes the book look even more infallible.
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html
What’s your thoughts on the dead sea scrolls. The dates etc?
Speaking of Horus & Egypt. Here’s my challenge for anyone since I was told to read this because of my discussion with one about how Egypt started most religions. The person sent me this.
http://faithgracetorah.net/2014/04/05/jesus-vs-horus-myththe-true-facts/
Thank you, but articles like that one full of falsehoods have been addressed constantly on this very website and in my nearly 600-page book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection. The Christian fundamentalist who wrote that article is very ignorant and is not an expert on the subject in the least. Nor are the other purported “debunkers” of the very real parallels between Horus and Jesus. Your “challenge” was met long ago and in numerous books, ebooks, articles, blogs, forum posts, social media posts, videos and radio programs.
The very article that you are posting on refutes some of the shallow “research” in that Christian post and others like it. Did you not even read this article you’re on right now? It is highly unlikely that the person who sent you that very ignorant screed has read my lengthy article here either.
You can go next to my book Christ in Egypt. This book has been out for several years now, so there’s little excuse for the continue ignorance in articles such as the one you posted.
You can also find links to several other pertinent articles here:
No, Zeitgeist has not been refuted
Here is a point-by-point rebuttal of many of the claims in articles such as the one you posted:
Rebuttal to Chris Forbes
Here are a couple of other articles on this very website:
ISIS IS A VIRGIN MOTHER!!
HORUS IS A SUN GOD
There are many other links at the articles above that will disprove the contentions in the article by the non-expert that you have shared.
Thank u. I’ll continue the research I was just saying what others did & I have been questioning religion for awhile. I understand & would have guessed many would challenge before me, I was just trying to get my own clarity. I find contradictions on my own anyway but was just trying to dig deeper on both sides to compare & contrast.
Yes I did read your article. I thought it was convincing because I have an open mind. I can’t speak for everyone else but I try to see why people believe & disbelieve. So I was already finding my own questions because I asked myself on God, I wanted to be as close as possible. I realized demon can only exist by my own perception & the world is a balance of opposition to know something you need the other. I saw external influences can change the internal but that it works both ways & everything is perception based even outside religion which I then started applying it to religious views. I wrote my personal journals to get to know myself by every aspect that I could by using 3rd person etc…also that I realized my negatives can reinforce a positive. Anyway enough about me but yes I found your article interesting.The thing was how do I know it’s real & I applied that to both sides of the spectrum. I do know most stuff predates Christianity. The thing is the stronghold of The Bible will use terms to hold one like there will be many books.Don’t be a fool for philosophy & waver not etc…they use paganism as its an external opposition so it makes everything else seem not real. I asked myself how come The pagans in Moses day were not defined of the origins & make it seem as if they were just there, as if just started or something. Problem is preconceived beliefs is what’s given people their approach of judgement. The preconception of what one already thinks is actually what holds them back if they don’t at least try to open up to other claims. The opposition seems like a threat & shakes foundations of valued faiths. I read an atheist saying one Christian blog was trying to prove the Bible with The Bible & refused to read the material further because the site was pro- christianity. Which I guess applies in reverse effect too. So people should read your site trying not to be bias on preconceived beliefs.
I was told these sites are just as convincing as yours & who is right?
http://beginningandend.com/jesus-copy-horus-mithras-dionysis-pagan-gods/
I already addressed you regarding the pagan parallels, in a lengthy reply that you apparently did not bother to read. These sites are full of FALSEHOODS by non-experts who have not studied the subject in any depth. If you want the real scholarship, you will need to read the links at the following page, provided again:
http://freethoughtnation.com/no-zeitigeist-has-not-been-refuted/
The quality of those sites you keep bringing up is not even close to the scholarship I provide. It is highly inferior, in fact. Again, you are wasting time with those garbagey sites when you could be reading the real scholarship.
Ok. I know it seems annoying & you must get it a lot. I’ve been through much of a spiritual path but external influences always put detours (fork in the road). They keep throwing those types of articles & say you are just as equal with evidence. They ask where you get your info from & you could have got it from false documents. One person told me the Horus connection has been proven wrong by many experts. That it started as a false claim etc & also the zodiac thing is supposedly pagan etc… I’m sorry if I come across ignorant. I’m only asking. There’s way too much out there & I’m just comparing & contrasting & I do think you have many good points. Where do you get your claims?
I’ve had the zeitgeist movie for some time now. I’m thinking to get the “great minds of our time”. Is that the newest one & what does it cover?
“Well Israelites are found once on the Egyptian carvings where it is listed as one of the groups that Pharaoh defeated. Most people do not realize back then the Israelites were the only group that believed in the one true God. Also Pharaohs would erase a man from all writings if they did not like him so it is not surprising that we would find little mention of them at all.” ?
Someone stated that to me
Here it is in more of the entirety. I was talking about exodus online with someone& they proposed the following.
“Well Israelites are found once on the Egyptian carvings where it is listed as one of the groups that Pharaoh defeated. Most people do not realize back then the Israelites were the only group that believed in the one true God. Also Pharaohs would erase a man from all writings if they did not like him so it is not surprising that we would find little mention of them at all.”
“Some of those facts came from a forged document , at least that is what I saw on a history channel special which typically does not defend God but in this case they said fake finds were discovered”
“I saw it on another TV history channel, same one that said they found, dug up a pole with a list of peoples defeated by the Pharaoh”
“I saw where they found Egyptian outfits and weapons at the bottom on the sea where it was thought God split the waters. That area now is very little water and dried up”
“Horus was worshiped I agree but the facts they compare to Jesus are disputed by experts”
“Dont forget real ancient history was not written on paper, but stone”
“Ever watch the naked Archaeologist, that show is interesting. He found a map that is the floor of an old stone church, on the map after they cleaned the floor are where the cities the Bible talked about”
Bare in mind I asked where found & what not in between the replies he gave. Any answers to this ??? I figured to ask since you seem to know a lot about Egyptian history.
Thank you. What I’ve stated in my book is true and factual. The Exodus did not happen, and Moses is a mythical figure. I address these numerous falsehoods and apologies in my book. They are simply not true.
For example: “Most people do not realize back then the Israelites were the only group that believed in the one true God.”
That claim is completely false. In the first place, the belief that the Israelites were followers of the “one TRUE God” is biblical propaganda. The biblical god is assuredly FALSE. Secondly, the Israelites were polytheistic for most of their history, and even after the fanatical followers of the Judean tribal god Yahweh tried to impose their oppressive Yahwism on them, they remained polytheistic. Thirdly, the Egyptians had a more elevated form of “monotheism” long before the Israelites even existed.
“I saw where they found Egyptian outfits and weapons at the bottom on the sea where it was thought God split the waters. That area now is very little water and dried up”
The above sentence is complete and utter baloney. I’m assuming it came from Ron Wyatt, whose claims are frankly absurd.
You are wasting time with these silly websites, when you could be reading my book instead.
Yea I skimmed this. This one I missed by accident. I do see your point. I’ve talked to an atheist who states very similarly. He breaks it down, debunking the exodus.
Do you address Jesus birth date? There’s been much debate on that. I ask because I noticed you reference Dec 25 for many God like figures & Jesus was Said To Only Be THE Insinuation Of Dec 25 because of pagan influences to get pagans to accept Jesus. The assumed birth date for Jesus was said to be Sept – Oct…also do you know how Egyptians cut with precision? The pyramids & what not were so straight & what would they have used? Which book do you cover the Gospels? & who existed & did not are in there? I heard you traveled, where? Do you have a biography I can read that isn’t made up? I’d rather hear your story then from another.
Sorry, but these apologies you are circulating are frankly dumb and designed for lower IQ and ignorant individuals. All I can suggest is you read my book and forget these dumb comments. They are simply wrong. You should keep in mind that the average IQ is 100 at best and that average scholarship is directed at people with fifth-grade level education. What I am presenting derives from a much higher IQ and far more sophisticated scholarship. I cannot be more frank than that.
I’m going to read your books. It’s the only way. I’m just pulled in many directions. I try to give everyone benefit of the doubt but applying logic & my own beliefs.
How about I read your books then ask questions if I have any. I wouldn’t say all is dumb that just lack proper insight. I did read your reply, it wasn’t I didn’t understand what you said as much as why to believe you but I then saw you further explained. To be honest I did miss one reply but saw it afterwards. I’m not trying to attack you. I’m looking for help from experts in which I found your searches intriguing but a lot is new to me but not all of it. I may post opinions of stuff to see what you say hoping with your expertise you can help. If that’s ok? I will try not to board you but just asking your for your input. I don’t know what your books don’t cover too because it’s hard to cover everything but I do realize you go for the key points.
Names are important. Regarding Jesus:
Another matter of matchless solemnity is that Jesus was/is not his name! His Hebrew name was Yahshua or Yeheoshua, which literally translates ‘Yahveh Saves or Yahveh is Salvation’, as opposed to ‘Jesus saves’. Jesus was a common Greek appellation for many Middle Eastern pagan messiahs, and is a word which means hero or saviour; while Christ or Christos, is the Greek word for ‘the anointed’. The magnanimously tolerant Greeks commonly referred to Hercules and the many foreign god-men messiahs as ‘Jesus Christos’ (anointed hero); furthermore, christos was also commonly used as a vernacular term for ‘good’. This is not news to Biblical scholars or well read laymen like me, but it is a shocking revelation to commonly-pewed worshipers, and yet of considerable insignificance to most practicing prelates!
It is of the utmost import to realize the term ‘Jesus’ was directly utilized as a
title for pagan gods and goddesses; e.g.:
Issa/Issi from India, Isis/Isu from Egypt,
Ieso-Iaso-Zeus-Iasus-Iasion-Iasius from Greece.
Chrestos or Chrestus was the actual Greek name of Osiris, the sun-
god of Egypt!
Christos was also the title of Zeus, principal god of the Greek
pantheon!
If this is not enough to impress the uninformed novice, it is also a
fact there was no ‘J’ in the English alphabet until 400 years ago!
Regarding Allah:
Elah or Alah is another form of Elohim: a combination of El or Strength and Alah or Swear. See Strong’s 425 and Scofield’s Reference Bible, First Edition, where Allah has been deleted from the revised text. It is also thought to be a combination of two other words meaning ‘the God’, and is used in reference to God more than 2500 times in the OT. All invocations in Islam definitely identify Allah with ‘The God of Abraham’, and not some tree or moon god as is commonly taught by many illiterates who’ve never read Al’Qur’an.
the Tetragrammaton: YHWH pronounced Yahveh. Original form is Yah. El was used as ‘Lord, King, or Chief’. The combination El-Yah or Lord-God is quite sensible, and it is not inconceivable that El-Yah, Al-Yah, or the Aramaic Eli reportedly spoken on the cross, are derived from this use. The first inscription bearing the name Yahveh is found on the famous
Moabite Stone. YHWH means I AM WHO AM or I BE.
This is the same Muslim who I posted about on your did Moses exist forum & mentioning the Nephilim. I asked him about you he states “she’s swimming in the correct waters”. I just wanted to know what you thought on this & the validity of the dead sea scrolls?
Read her books especially Who Was Jesus. It is one of my favorite books of hers because I am familiar with the Christian literature. Don’t get me wrong I like the scholarship of SOG and CIE but it took me some research before I understood it all. Regarding “El”. In Egyptian primary sources, you can find “El-Asar” or “El-Osar” which can be transliterated to El-Osiris. The story of Jesus raising Lazarus is just a copy of the EBD. The name “El” is the name of the Semitic god years prior to Christianity.
Same goes from Herod ordering infanticide to prevent Jesus’s birth. It can be found on Hindu teachings especially when King Kansa ordered infanticide to prevent Krishna from being born.
Yea the King Herod thing seems false anyway. Josephus never mentions it which he mentioned many other things he did. Also which one is is because Matthew & Luke can’t agree. One says was a census which Romans didn’t do until year 10. The Gospels conflict a lot anyway. I know alot of the Biblical literature too. Thank you. I’ll have to check it out.
Hey can anyone answer why some say they’ve seen demon possessions or been possessed? I know celebrities can fabricate things to make sales/entertainment but it’s strange with the illuminati stuff which some is over exaggerated. The celeb “Kesha” openly admits she’s a Satanist & says she has sex with demons & her stage acts & songs are Satanic, etc…any clarity on this???
I’m waiting for the “great minds of out time” dvd. It already Shipped.
Hi Rapture,
I think most of your questions have been discussed at the forum … just do a search: http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/
Thanks Paul. Yes I found some. There’s so much on both sides. Even some people have some stuff agreeing with Murdock then other stuff in disagreement. Clearly earlier religions influenced Christianity, I just don’t know how to know which ones are proof because some of Murdock claims I can’t find so it’s not that I don’t believe her & trying to prove either side but just want the truth. Like hieroglyphics is proof but how come these people would say there’s no record of this & that if there is proof?
How do you know what my claims are, if you can’t find them? Practically everything I’ve claimed is solidly backed up by citations – thousands of them, in fact – from primary sources and the works of credentialed authorities. All one needs to do is read my books, ebooks, articles and forum posts, where the citations are included. It’s not hard to find them.
I apologize then. I’m just trying to compare things that’s all. Some say you get stuff from Gerald Massey & they say he’s wrong. I’m not saying I think you are wrong. I’m just saying what I’ve read but I take everything with a grain of salt because everyone sugar coats their claims. To be honest I like your stuff. Easy to read too. I’m waiting for your dvd. I’m just trying to debunk stuff on my own. Not necessarily you but in general. I find issues with The NT on my own. Now I’m just trying to see the history of things. I’m going to read the “who was Jesus” that I downloaded from here. I’d rather read a book. Maybe their on amazon. My main question is why do people hold on to these falsehood views if you have legit proof against their claims? Where are they coming up with this stuff? Lol
“Some” are wrong. I don’t get “stuff” from Gerald Massey – I have used his extraordinary work in the past. Those who naysay his work are themselves quite ignorant and not particularly intelligent or well educated.
Gerald Massey’s work was peer-reviewed by some of the biggest archaeologists and Egyptologists of his day. See my article here:
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/who-is-gerald-massey.html
In any event, my nearly 600-page book Christ in Egypt does not rely on Gerald Massey at all. It draws from thousands of primary sources and the writings of modern credentialed scholars.
Thank you for ordering my DVD. I hope you enjoy it. My books and ebooks are on Amazon, as can be found here:
http://stellarhousepublishing.com
Hey AS have you noticed that Paul’s epistles seem to only validate themselves from old testament. He repeatedly mentions he gets his revelations from scripture. He gets it from no man & he seems to see Christ as already been crucified etc…weren’t the epistles before the Gospels? Paul Says it was revealed to him the secret from the beginning of time. Even psalms says “was” a lot as of already happened not going to.
Thanks AS I didn’t know. That’s why I asked. I’ll look into your citations. Can you please give an explanation on the Paul comment.
I can only reply to certain posts?
I watched your DVD. Fascinating work. Keep it coming. I’ve been jumping around between different scholars but your my favorite so far.
Can you please reply to the Paul’s epistles & is it true that they found King David’s tomb?
I know your a busy person.
I like how you mentioned in the video that you still consider it art of the way of ancient times.
Do you consider all the Biblical stories completely false or that the battles & whatnot were real but integrated allegories, motifs?
I finally saw the Pauline epistles reply. Disregard that question but there’s a couple more.
I would like to ask what claim of hers have you found dubious or lacking evidence? I think she has done a great job of maintaining erudition while being easy to understand.
Or you can try watching Rev. Robert Beckford’s film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcrygSAqfj4 He went to places and asked experts and religious leaders as he found the similarities between Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Osiris, and Mithra.
The ZG sourcebook can back up the claims in ZG part 1. http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitgeistsourcebook.pdf
Her latest book Did Moses Exist can be her best work right now maybe in the same league as Christ In Egypt. Unlike her detractors like Bart Ehrman, she carefully cites every claim and footnoted for ease of refences which apparently her detractors doesn’t know to do. Like when Ehrman said that the phallic statue of the god Priapus doesn’t exist and Acharya made it up by freehand drawing. Such a dick move for Ehrman.
I didn’t say I found any of it dubious or lacking. The post you put is stuff I’m looking for. I meant outside the site because so many different sites claim this & that. Obviously Shea not just pulling it out of her ass. Lol. I just had trouble finding some on an external source but that’s because there’s so much junk that links you places. Jon M please view this one & tell me if the references at the bottom are valid? It’s not a long one.
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=876
Other than The Natural Genesis, I won’t comment his other books because I haven’t read it. They cited Acharya S’s The Christ Conspiracy which I found dubious if they have actually read it. Their argument is that there are evidences outside of the NT for is quite erroneous. All they can cite are the four popular historians are Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, Tacitus, and Josephus. Even if they can be considered as genuine, it serves too late. Also, there are a lot of historians who lived or had been in that 90 miles stretch at 1st cent CE/1 AD but how come such a popular man had escaped their senses? In 1 Corinthians 15:6, 500 people saw him ascend to heaven. No commentaries had been made about this supernatural event.
Time and again, that brief interruption in Josephus’s work Testimonium Flavianum is considered a forgery and interpolation primarily by an Early Church Father named Eusebius. Justin Martyr had read the writings of Josephus but never mentioned those two paragraphs. Even Christian scholars admitted that there is little to no value in those 4 brief mentions. Truth be told, the only primary source of his life and works is the NT.
Annals by Tacitus didn’t appear till 14th century which makes it questionable. Furthermore, Tertullian mentioned it only once but not the other Church fathers. How come that such horrible persecution of Christians is not known to the others.
Thank you To you both. Remember I’m learning this stuff which it doesn’t seem as easily accessible as the falsehoods. I think you understand I’m just searching. I want clarity & truth outside the Bible. The Bible doesn’t answer everything & like I said before I find many contradictions.
Thanks I found this helpful. I also found some of the questions I’ve asked which some make you ask more questions lol
I can’t reply on some so here’s a new one. Jon M Very informative. That’s the type of information I’m looking for.
What’s anyone of you here think about Demonic claims like exorcisms? I ask because these type of trails lead back to reinforcing the Christian beliefs. If some claim Ghost encounters & seeing supposedly real exorcisms then what’s that to be seen as?
May I embellish the comment on purification by administering water? The cartouche of the 16th Dynasty Pharaoh who was called Jacob has two determinative hieroglyphs after his name, an extended arm which is called ‘djoser’ but means ‘Sacred’ and three water ripples which mean either ‘Pure’, ‘Priest’ or ‘Water’. My interpretation of the two determinatives together is ‘Baptist’. This king’s name clearly shows that he was Jewish for it begins with the double water reed God Name YY. As this is plural it would have been pronounced as YW or Yah Weh. This god name is followed by the bowl glyph for the letter ‘K’ and a boot glyph for the letter ‘B’ giving us YYKB Baptist. The name is deliberately mistranslated by religious Egyptologists as Yakobaam which is sheer nonsense as any student of Ancient Egyptian should know full well. According to Gerald Massey the letters YY or YW are the origin of the name ‘Jew’ as they could also be read as ‘Iu’.
With reference to the comment on Mark we can determine that he had a very good command of the Ancient Egyptian language and writing from chapter 8 verse 33 of his gospel. The name ‘Satan’ is really the genitive case of the God Sat or Set or Sut and so it really means ‘Of’ or belonging to Sat. The Egyptians loved to use puns when writing as has been pointed out by Ralph Ellis in his books. As in English there were words in Egyptian that had multiple meanings and ‘Sat’ was one of them. It was not only the name of the evil brother of the God Uasar (Greek Osiris), but it also could mean a Hillock or it could mean a ROCK. In Egyptian writing the meaning is made clear by adding a determinative glyph. But in Greek Mark 8:33 leaves us in some confusion which has puzzled theologians for centuries. Why did Jesus address Peter as ‘Satan’. He didn’t; he simply used the Egyptian word for ‘Rock’. Incidentally in English ‘Devil’ can mean ‘To season with pepper’.
Good comment Malcom. When Jesus called Peter satan that would make sense because he referred to Peter as a rock another time to build upon but why was it used in a seemingly angered/bothered sense?
What’s the astrological view of 3 days of darkness because lately everyone is talking about it. I keep hearing 3 days of darkness is coming etc…???
The three days of “darkness” probably refer to the solstice, which means “sun stands still.” The ancients perceived the solstice to last three days or so, because the sun moved imperceptibly on the sun dial during that period.
Does anyone know which of Paul’s writings come before the Gospels. From what I found, the epistles are before or out of the trajectory because they mention no Gospel details of an earthly Jesus but what about after the Gospels were made? Forgery? Paul’s epistles keep saying he gets his revelations from no man & from scripture (old testament). Then I noticed in Psalms, proverbs, Isaiah that everything is past tense when they talk about a Christ figure.
All of the so-called Pauline epistles predate the emergence of the canonical gospels in the historical record by decades. Yes, you are correct that the Old Testament “messianic prophecies” are not actually prophetic, in the sense that they are predicting future events, but are indeed past tense.
Thank you for your replies. Was helpful.
As I know I’m getting annoying but I’ve been on other blogs & this question hasn’t been answered that I know of anyway. I found this on a secular website & was wondering if you could validate the “silver” part? Was silver used in Jesus day outside The Bibles reference?
“JUDAS ISCARIOT
It is very unclear in the gospels just what Judas Iscariot’s betrayal consisted of, probably because there was absolutely no need for a betrayal. Jesus could have been arrested any number of times without the general populace knowing about it. It would have been simple to keep tabs on his whereabouts. The religious authorities did not need a betrayal – only the gospel writers needed a betrayal, so that a few more “prophecies” could be fulfilled. The whole episode is pure fiction – and, as might be expected, it is riddled with contradictions.
1. The prophecy
Matthew says that Judas’ payment and death were prophesied by Jeremiah, and then he quotesZechariah 11:12-13 as proof!
2. Thirty pieces of silver
According to Matthew 26:15, the chief priests “weighed out thirty pieces of silver” to give to Judas. There are two things wrong with this:
a. There were no “pieces of silver” used as currency in Jesus’ time – they had gone out of circulation about 300 years before.
b. In Jesus’ time, minted coins were used – currency was not “weighed out.”
By using phrases that made sense in Zechariah’s time but not in Jesus’ time Matthew once again gives away the fact that he creates events in his gospel to match “prophecies” he finds in the Old Testament.”
Jon M I used your comment in a debate & this was said:
Nice words “erroneous” “All they can cite is 4” Thats more then some historical evidence does
“Josephus’s work Testimonium Flavianum is considered a forgery”
by who and why ? I have people who say it is not faked, it doesn’t say Jesus was the son of God either… I can go on but again this is like you would say them saying stuff at the point I just stopped with no proof… Just because Josephus’s doesn’t mention something doesn’t make it fake ?
This is the other opinion that they said scholars dismiss but are lying
As with the bible, people question Josephus being changed or some how altered but they do not question its origin
Scholarly opinion on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities, a passage that states that Jesus the Messiah was a wise teacher who was crucified by Pilate, usually called the Testimonium Flavianum.
The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus, which was then subject to Christian expansion/alteration.
Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James” and considers it as having the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity However, critics point out that Josephus wrote about a number of people who went by the name Jesus, Yeshua or Joshua, and also speculate that Josephus may have considered James a fraternal brother rather than a sibling.
This of course only proves that some people believe him entirely and some thing only some of what he says is true… again its opinion. But I look at motive. He was hired by Rome, He was a Jew not a Christian.
And the little he wrote back then would have not be worth anything as a liar. Today yes… then not so much…
Could his works have been changed… Yes, along with every single historical Document we have.
“Even Christian scholars admitted that there is little to no value in those 4 brief mentions” I beg to differ, thats a statement not any proof
“500 people saw him ascend to heaven. No commentaries had been made about this supernatural event.”
While this may be true… we didn’t have CNN in those days but even if this is true something happen because a movement started and expanded and the calendar reflects it. Historians will agree something big happen just not agree on what that was
Annals by Tacitus didn’t appear till 14th century which makes it questionable,
Dead sea scrolls were found in the last 100 years so ? Does everything have to be found right away? When evolutionist dig up a bone should I say hey that wasn’t found beck in 100,000 bc so it cant be considered ? again opinions
“This person should be ashamed because in high school history class, BC/AD is used only at year 525 because this is the time where the Christian faith has been a state religion. That is approximately 300 years after the gospels came to existence. That is why to express neutrality, some use BCE/CE.”
All Bias no proof of any thing yes 300 years after the Catholic Church was formed, but it was formed from Christians who had existed way before and they have writings from before 300 ad
You can find the “whos” and “whys” about the forged Testimonium Flavianum at my articles here:
http://truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm
http://freethoughtnation.com/does-josephus-prove-a-historical-jesus/
Those who claim the TF as original to Josephus either wholly or partially are standing on very thin ice. It’s bogus in toto, for the extensive reasons given in the above links.
You can find articles refuting the value of Suetonius, Pliny, Tacitus and others here as well:
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=28029
As concerns the 500, that’s a mythical motif that can also be found in Buddhist lore.
I’ve addressed pretty much all Christian claims and apologies, so if you wish, you can search this site, http://freethoughtnation.com, which searches across all my websites and forums. We’ve got thousands of pages of discussion on my forum. Also, you can search through my books on Google Books or Amazon.
I know AS. I’ve done a lot of researching. I was looking for a fast short answer to give. I used not only my own questions which I’m sure others have had but I put your Truthbeknown.com the person just shunned me. I was just posting this to show the questions people throw at me. One was
” If Jesus did not exist where did Christians (Not Catholics) come from”
I replied “Ask the billion Muslims that say Allah is the one true God. Why do Muslims & other religious cultures exist?”
I asked:
how Jesus could see all the kingdoms of the earth just by being up on a high enough mountain. The Bible clearly depicts a flat earth.
how the stars could “fall to earth” when they are in fact millions of light years away and way way bigger than the earth.
why the god of the OT gave instructions on how to sell your daughter into slavery.
why archeology has discovered the city of Nineveh and it is about 1.5 miles long, not a 3 day walk long as the book of Jonah claims.
He replied:
“Why is the year 2014 ? Curious in a Godless world why we use that date.”
Way too much evidence of things the Bible has said has been proven true then not, people see what they want to, why do Atheist believe God subjected women to bad times and people to slavery ? they have no problem pulling those verses out of the bible and saying they are true ??? wait if the bible is a lie why is the negative parts true and the positive ones false?”
“Stars fall all the time, wish upon a falling star ? Its a phrase not saying the actual stars fell and surely God could make them fall if he wanted to ? Also Jesus was God so why couldn’t he see the other side of the moon from his bedroom if he wanted to ? As I said before your getting negative material to use here not because you want to believe cause someone who wants to believe doesn’t get negative material to do it.”
He sent this site: https://www.facebook.com/notes/chuck-bridges/science-and-the-bible-interesting/10152764962893446
Using science for a forefront:
http://hubblerevealscreation.com/genesis/
He then says: “First there is Science behind the star mentioned in the Bible, a scientist did a giant research on it, well many have but here is one finding
http://www.denverastrosociety.org/dfiles/mickle/StarofBethlehem.pdf
There are many Astrology things in the Bible, the people of that day believed in the stars.”
There was so much more but you get the point. I was even called blind & not seeking truth.
Thanks. There’s no serious science behind the star of Bethlehem, only skewed results based on belief that it was a historical event. It wasn’t. It’s an old mythical motif that can be found in Egyptian mythology, as here:
The Star in the East and Three Kings
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/star-east-three-kings.html
Pretty much all Christian apologies holding up the gospel story as literal history are flawed and false, so a word to the wise: Don’t trust them.
Thank you. Some have said to me, “so you saying the whole Bible is wrong, everything? ” I explained that obviously there’s historical areas & culture practices but it’s very exaggerated & a lot of it didn’t happen. You have many who take everything literal & even ignore certain passages it says like the kill everyone but keep the women & children who haven’t laid with a man.
I’ve been in a recent conversation with a minister who has studied some of this material. I doubt he has read your material but I was wondering if you could answer these questions:
He said in no way is Yamm linked to Yahweh?
“There were no diacritical marks or vowels in the original Hebrew text. They were added by the Masoretes. There is a small, backwards, intellectually shallow pool of people that want to argue for the King James version as a superior translation to newer versions like the NIV or NRSV or NLT or anything else produced in the last 300 years. Those folks are fundamentalist wackos with no academic legs to stand on. His desire to keep the vowels comes out of a pathological interest in preserving a 500 year old Bible. Its nuts.”
“the stuff about YHWH having a wife is a totally ok thing for the validity of the Scriptures. The Bible is CONSTANTLY complaining about the fact that the Israelites use pagan deities. This is not a surprise. William Dever has a book on the topic, “Who was YHWH and did he Have a Wife?” or something like that. Its good, but I disagree with some of his claims. I would also note that I studied under one of Dever’s students from the University of Arizona, and he’s a Bible believer and more conservative than I, after years under Dever. None of this stuff is slammed shut, obviously true.”
“you mix and match, You can’t make an argument based on good research, There is plenty of good scholarly material that is not pro-orthodoxy. You are just muddling stuff with wikipedia and the craziness of some of these sites. Academia trains people and gives them degrees, and also does evaluations of their articles before publishing for a reason. If it isn’t in a respectable journal that is peer reviewed, you should ignore it.”
“We cannot go willy nilly comparing ancient religions. Yamm is not YHWH in any way shape or form. I’ve done some relatively extensive work in Ugaritic myths, even translating some of the texts myself. Yamm is at least third on the list, after El and Baal, of possible sources for the Hebrew YHWH. Even then, there is all sort of history here. You can’t take stuff from Egypt in 2200 BC, Ugarit in 1700BC, Babylon in 700BC, Israel in 500BC, and then Gnostic material in 300 AD and mix it all up. Those cultures are very different. They were as far apart chronologically as us and Beowulf. You have to consider the likelihood they were actually connected. I had research ideas for way the Ugaritic Baal material effected the writing of 1st Kings. Even though they are about 300-600 years apart in authorship, and only a couple hundred miles away, I was told I was assuming too much to suggest there was a link, because of the space in time and distance. This stuff just doesn’t work that way.”
“there are only so many sounds the human mouth can make. We can’t assume that words are related just because they both start with Y. They had about a 1 in 40 chance they would start with the same syllable. I appreciate a search for truth, but Looking for answers to these complex questions on the web is silly. Critical research is a thing. We have universities and degrees and publications for a reason. I’d encourage you,stop being yanked around by pseudo research and actually start reading intelligent arguments from educated people. There are enough of them that hate the Bible and Christianity, so you don’t have to worry about pro-Christian bias. But at least they’ve been put through some editorial process.”
“Let me give you a couple things that are good. Kenneth Kitchen’s “On the Reliability of the Old Testament.” Kitchen is a believer, but also a preeminent Egyptologist. He is honest with the strong historical likelihood stuff and the hard to establish historical reliability. Another book we read on some of the ancient Israel stuff is William Dever’s “Who are the ancient Israelites and Where did they come from?” He will argue Israel did not spend time in Egypt, but thus also there is no way that YHWH is an Egyptian deity. Generally research out of major academic publications such as Journal for the Study of the Old Testament are a good idea. Here is a nice guide to what is good material and what is not.” http://guides.library.cornell.edu/c.php?g=31867&p=201758
“I still disagree on the importance of comparative religion, because it just doesn’t work. Many of the comparisons you are talking about would be similar to saying that a 1970s Lutheran Church in Massachusetts got ideas from Incan religion in the 1300s, because one had the Lord’s Supper and the other had a Feast for the Gods. The chronology, lineage of ideas, and geography just doesn’t work. Many of the connections you bring up are sensationalist stuff not done by reputable scholars.”
“Let me give a quick example on the danger of comparative religion stuff. Some folks will try to connect Moses raising of the bronze snake in the desert with the tradition of Asclepius having snakes around him. They will try to say that one comes from another. There is no direct evidence of that, however. More likely, people looked at snakes and saw that they often looked terrible before suddenly shedding their skin and looking brand new. It was a kind of sudden “healing.” Hebrews and Greeks saw that same reality, and similarly adapted it in some similar ways. That merely means that they drew similar connections between similar phenomenons. It by no means proves they were sourced from one another. Similarly, the tradition of having monsters or chaos in the sea is something that can be seen across the world in dozens of religions and cultures. They aren’t all dependent on one another. Often that would be literally impossible. Instead, they all found similar images that had similar meanings. If me and a guy I never met both name our girl “Dawn” because she was born about dawn time, it doesn’t mean I asked him and took the name from him.”
Okay, but where does anyone say Yahweh is Yamm? I discuss Yamm quite a bit in my book Did Moses Exist? He’s the Canaanite sea god, equivalent to Poseidon. Yahweh/Moses battling the “Red Sea” or Yam Suph is equivalent to Baal versus Yamm. Only in Yahweh’s alleged omnipotence – which would include controlling the sea – does he have some of Yamm’s attributes.
” Some folks will try to connect Moses raising of the bronze snake in the desert with the tradition of Asclepius having snakes around him. They will try to say that one comes from another. There is no direct evidence of that, however. ”
There assuredly is evidence, when one connects the dots from the ancient pre-Mosaic serpent gods, through to Dionysus, then Moses and then Aesclepius. He just hasn’t connected the dots based on all the data, because he’s dismissed it, rather than studied it. Please see my extensive discussion of the mythical serpent motif in Did Moses Exist?
Yahweh’s “wife” is mentioned in the Elephantine papyri from the fifth century BCE.
“You can’t take stuff from Egypt in 2200 BC, Ugarit in 1700BC, Babylon in 700BC, Israel in 500BC, and then Gnostic material in 300 AD and mix it all up.”
That’s somewhat erroneous, because it is not we who are taking things from all across the cultural spectrum. It was the ancients themselves who continued traditions from remote antiquity into the present day, because they are relating observations of natural phenomena that affected the ancients and continue to affect us today. Gnosticism especially was a syncretic ideology that drew from Egyptian, Greek, Jewish, Syrian and other cultures around the Mediterranean. Some of the ideas within Gnosticism are VERY old, dating back thousands of years.
“I still disagree on the importance of comparative religion, because it just doesn’t work.”
That’s an absurdly generalized and dismissive remark. Comparative religion is a science, and like all sciences, it produces both good and bad data. The bad data tend to come from those who don’t know the subject well and who dismiss it offhand, revealing their ignorance and non-expertise. Comparative religion studies reveal where very ancient religious and mythological ideas come from. Only if you wish to remain ignorant as to the origins of religious ideation will you dismiss this academic field.
Great reply. I did answer back similarly to your ending about comparative religions. I even went into a counter explanation on his “Dawn”. I said still Dawn originates from one source & it is limited based on lack of detail. Also I can say Rose & Spanish, Rosa & how languages have transitional changes with sounds but same identifications. Then can go from Rosanna to Rosanne etc…I was basically saying that doesn’t explain away the many similarities of other cultures beliefs & deities from one to another. Also that everything in life is influenced. Gangs start doing same practices but using different hand gestures & colors & names but still is comparative like everything. It’s like if I compared you to other mythicist scholars I’d say you are thorough & diligently in depth not just a surface talk on it all. Obviously it’s difficult to explain everything for it takes time with books on books. He may be right that I posted a few random links or copy & pasted quotes on Facebook but I wasn’t trying to do an editorial assessment of my posting to look all scholar material. lol I actually posted the Hinton one because he refutes the being no vowels & I was showing how even Christians disagree among themselves. It was like 3 different people on the comments & I was told I should post both sides of the arguments but I said why would I post on what I don’t agree with but I tried to find a Devout Christian site claiming the same things about Yahweh & then I get criticized by another. It wasn’t you who said Yamm was from Yahweh or vice versa but It was in a partial of a long summary of Yahweh’s origins. I found on a site that seemed thorough enough. I looked it up on your Truthbeknown.com 1st but it didn’t mention exactly what I was looking for even though it was still a good read. I tried to Google you with the name too but it wasn’t working but did send me to many other deities & works of yours.
What’s your thoughts on David Icke? Some of his stuff is bizarre. I think he says Yahweh was a moon God?
With regards to the no true scholar questions the existence of Jesus or the authenticity of TF, these are some Christian scholars who admits there isn’t that much fingerprints for Jesus.
“Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent on these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic.”
F.F. Bruce, New Testament History” He is the founder of the modern evangelical movement.
“…there are very few sources for knowledge of the historical Jesus beyond the four canonical Gospels. Paul and Josephus offer little more than tidbits. Claims that later apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material supply independent and reliable historical information about Jesus are largely fantasy. In the end, the historian is left with the difficult task of sifting through the Four Gospels for historical tradition.”
John P. Meier, a Catholic University professor. A catholic priest and monsignor
Finally, one of the reasons why Jews don’t believe him as the Messiah is that he is absent in any contemporary writings of the Jews.
“The only definite account of his life and teachings is contained in the four Gospels of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All other historical records of the time are silent about him. The brief mentions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have been generally regarded as not genuine and as Christian interpolations; in Jewish writings there is no report about Jesus that has historical value. Some scholars have even gone so far as to hold that the entire Jesus story is a myth…”
The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (v. 6, 83)”
As you can see, those 4 historians, the Talmud, James Ossuary, Catacombs, and even the Shroud of Turin has no value in for his existence. I want to ask if you have read Who Was Jesus by Acharya S or even Josephus Unbound by Earl Doherry? http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/supp10.htm
Acharya may get mad at this but in this video, Richard Carrier’s narcissism becomes useful. In this video, Richard Carrier explains why the Josephus passage is a forgery.
http://youtu.be/gNfdhTvteYw
Thanks JonM- I haven’t read “who was Jesus” yet. I’m going to. I read most of “Josephus’s unbound”. I’ll check out the video now.
Is it true about the silver being out of circulation in the beginning of the 1st century?
I’ve just used The Bible itself as it is more than questionable & so many contradictions. I asked someone something simple as why can Moses break thou shalt not murder & the answer I’m given is “God told him to do everything& would you question God? It was part of the plan, There’s Justifiable homicide. ” etc…lol I even ask why God waited so long to intervene on things. After the old testament there was something like 400 years of silence then The NT is completely different image of God & he’s silent yet Jesus is why. These are simple ones people use opinions not answer then get angry when I state more. They say mine is opinions. Lol then it’s a vicious cycle.
People use videos now to use as proof. Like sounding trumpets world wide.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XNVOnGGbaFU
& cross in sky.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9AJTo5_xcAQ
I’m not saying I agree but showing you what people send me to reinforce their belief.
I do understand the Tornado one is a 50/50 probability because the filming would be hit & no vid or they move, or get missed but just simply looks like it died out.
JONM you have been helpful. I watched the Carrier vid & read some comments there. What is this Guy saying?
are talking.
Frank Walton1 month ago · Shared publicly
“THE OLDEST SECULAR ACCOUNTS & HISTORICAL EVIDENCE ON THE EXISTANCE OF JESUS OF NAZARETH
Even liberal scholar Dr. Bart Ehrman admits: “No serious historian doubts the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth.” Note the wide array of evidence:
Cornelius Tacitus (AD55-120) Roman historian: Most acclaimed works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals cover the period from Augustus Caesar’s death in AD14 to the death of the Emperor Nero in AD68, while the Histories begin after Nero’s death and proceed to the reign of Domitian in AD96. In the Annals, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians at Rome. See Annals XV,44: But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also.” (The misspelling of Christ as “Christus” was a common error made by pagan writers). It is interesting that Pilate is not mentioned in any other pagan document which has survived. It is an irony of history that the only surviving reference to him in a pagan document mentions him because of the sentence of death he passed on Jesus the Messiah.
Suetonius: Roman historian and court official during the reign of the Emperor Hadrian. Suetonius wrote in his Life of Claudius: “As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.” (Life of Claudius 25.4). Chrestus is a misspelling of Christus; the spelling probably assumes that the spelling of Jesus’ title “Christos” was the same as ate ChiRho symbol which was also a literary device which indicated a quote worthy of note = the ‘chrestus” symbol. Claudius’ expulsion of the Christians form Rome is mentioned in Acts 18:2. This event took place in 49AD. In his work Lives of the Caesars, Suetonius also wrote: “Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.” Assuming Jesus was crucified in the early thirties, Suetonius places Christians in the Roman capital less than 20 years later and he reports that they were suffering for their faith and dying for their conviction that Jesus had really lived, died and that He had risen from the dead!
Pliny the Younger: Roman governor in Bithynia AD112 wrote to Emperor Trajan to seek advice as to how to treat the Christians. He recounts that he had been killing Christian men, women, and children. He is concerned that so many have chosen death over simply bowing down to a statue of the emperor or being made to “curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do.” (Epistles X, 96)
Thallus: Thallus was a secular historian who (circa AD52) wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean from the Trojan War to his own time. The document no longer exists but it was quoted by other writers like the Christian, Julius Africanus, who wrote around AD221. He quotes Thallus’ comments about the darkness that enveloped the land during the late afternoon hours when Jesus died on the cross. Julius wrote: “Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died.” Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1 The importance of Tallus’ comments is that the reference shows that the Gospel account of the darkness that fell across the earth during Christ’s crucifixion was well known and required a naturalistic explanation from non-Christians.
Phlegon: Julius Africanus also quoted another secular scholar whose works are now lost. Phlegon wrote a history called Chronicles. Phlegon also comments on the darkness at the time of Christ’s crucifixion: “During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.” Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1
(The 3rd century Christian apologist Origen also references Phlegon’s record of this event in his work Celsum, 2.14,33,59 as does the 6th century writer Philopon (De.opif.mund. II, 21.
Mara Bar-Serapion: Syrian stoic philosopher who wrote a letter from prison to his son circa 70AD. He compares Jesus to the philosophers Socrates and Pythagoras.
Josephus ben Mattathias (also known as Flavius Josephus): 37-100AD, Jewish priest, general and historian. He wrote two great works of Jewish history: The Jewish War, written in the early 70’s and Jewish Antiquities, which was finished about AD 94. In Jewish Antiquities, the original, unembellished version appears in the tenth century Arabic version, is shorter than the Latin interpolated version (Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3): “Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of startling works – a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentile; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
We must remember that Josephus mentions Jesus in connection with the death of James, the leader in the Jerusalem church in the late 50’s AD. Antiquities 20.9.1 “But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.”
Lucian of Samosate: Greek satirist later half of 2nd century spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians but never argued that Jesus never existed. “The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day, the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account…” The Death of Peregrine, 11-13
The Babylonian Talmud: “It has been taught: On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out, in front of him, for 40 days (saying): ‘He is going to be stoned, because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.’ But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of Passover.” Sanhedrin 43a; df.t.Sanh. 10:11; y. Sanh. 7:12; Tg. Esther 7:9
(Another version of this text reads: “Yeshu the Nazarene.” Yeshu or Yehoshua is Hebrew (or Aramaic) for Jesus in English this name is also translated “Joshua.” The Old Testament hero bore the same name as Jesus the Messiah. “Hanged” is another way of referring to a crucifixion; see Luke 23:39and Galatians 3:13
No serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus. – Otto Betz”
Well, I wish you wouldn’t watch Carrier’s videos, as he has engaged in a sustained campaign of abuse against my person and lies about my work. He’s an egotistical and megalomaniacal wretch who gives this field a bad name.
Stupid Things Richard Carrier Has Said and Done
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4771#p4771
In any event, Otto Betz is engaging in the “no serious scholar” fallacy, and he is quite wrong. See the discussion of “no serious scholar” here:
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3110
Upon scientific scrutiny, none of the above sources has any value in establishing a historical Jesus of Nazareth. These purported “sources” have been refuted numerous times over the centuries, so we could suggest that Otto Betz is no serious scholar, since he is blatantly incompetent when it comes to mythicist studies.
You can start here for the refutations of Josephus, Pliny, Suetonius and Tacitus:
The Alleged Evidence for the Historical Jesus
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=28029
In my book Who Was Jesus? I analyze the Talmud, Thallus, Phlegon, Mara bar-Serapion and Africanus – they are all worthless. The Talmudic accounts is too late to serve as anything but hearsay. As for the rest, you may wish to read my book, which you can peruse on Google Books or Amazon.
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus.html
You can see a discussion of these sources, including Thallus, here:
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=27824#p27824
It’s all desperate smoke and mirrors. One would think that if such a person existed and shook up the world with miracles and magic tricks, having the full force of the God of the cosmos behind him, there would something substantial in the contemporary historical record, but there is not. None of these desperate “proofs” will suffice.
I figured you may like this link. It talks about myths & God in general.saying time to question & denounce. Do you know much about The Growing Illuminati trend? The Illuminati is said to be a great conspiracy with a secret cult organization for a New world order of enlightened ones etc…I’ve done research to debunk some of it. I think it’s a big scam but there is some weird notions. Alot of the music industry is said to be a part of it which would boost controversy & record sales but anyway I thought if you were to do a book on it that it would be very interesting to see your work. I do know Freemasons are separate but some how people integrate them as part of the all seeing eye of Horus & blah blah. Lol
http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/illuminati-degrees(1540971).htm
You know what, instead of wasting your time in forums of biased Christians fanatics whom I doubt if they have read the bible cover to cover, why don’t you study the case from mythicism yourself. Responding to every apology is quite tiresome and even if you present them a solid case they will keep on denying it because they have a vested interest on their faith or they do not know anything outside their faith. While I can understand that you want to give both sides the benefit of the doubt, these apologies by fanatics are so full of fallacies. You said they are questioning who said that the TF passage is forgery, that alone is a “no-true Scottsman fallacy”. This is no different from Dr. Chris Forbes who said that no scholar questions the authenticity of TF. Dr. Robert M. Price has two PhDs and a proponent of Christ mythicism.
Their deflection is obvious when they said that there is no CNN that time to record 500 saw him ascend to heaven. For god’s sakes, that is a red herring fallacy. In the TF passage, a dozen more Jesuses are mentioned but none of them refers to Jesus of Nazareth.
And please I do suggest you to read the following:
“Bart Ehrman and the Quest for the Historical Jesus of Nazareth” by Richard Carrier, D.M. Murdock, et.al
“Deconstructing Jesus” by Dr. Robert M. Price
“The Amaazing Colossal Paul” by Dr. Robert M. Price, in here he discusses as to why Paul never existed
“Nailed” by David Fitzgerald
And finally “The Christ Conspiracy, Suns of God, and Who Was Jesus”.
After deciding to be an apostate, I still haven’t found anything informed and unbiased from apologists as to why that man named Jesus walked the Earth during the 1st cent CE. Also, what is their response to Jesus’s absurd sayings and silliness?
Matt 10:21-23, Luke 14:26-27, Matt 10:34-39 He wants you to be a hateful vagabond and it is fine to kill your family because he brings a sword to the world
Matt 15:22-28 Jesus is a racist messiah
Luke 19:47-48 Beating up slaves is “a okay”
Matt 19:12 Men should be castrated to go to heaven
Matt 5:29-30 if you sin, cut off your arms, pluck out your eyes
Luke 19:27 He wants his enemies to be killed
Mark 16:16-18 I haven’t seen a devout Christian survive drinking poison unless they take activated charcoal. Nor do I haven’t seen a snake-charmer who didn’t get harmed unless brought to the hospital
Matt 27:51-53 No records of zombies rampaging Jerusalem had been written. Maybe because it is directly lifted from the Greek myth when Dionysus died.
Reading mythicist books made me realize that many things in the Bible should not be taken literally. Apologists would say they same thing but it is them taking it literally or sugar coating its flaws. Again, READ!
Thanks, Jon, for stepping in and for being such a great student of mythicism! You make excellent points, as usual.
I wouldn’t recommend the Ehrman rebuttal book for a newbie, however, as it is a bit arcane, unless he’s already Ehrman’s trashy and libelous screed.
Anyone who wants to start studying mythicism is welcome to read my articles:
http://truthbeknown.com
http://stellarhousepublishing.com
http://freethoughtnation.com
Those interested in the history of mythicism might want to read these articles:
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/mythicist.html
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/mythicism.html
Also, if there’s one other site that contains great info on this subject for the masses, it’s that of my buddy Ken Humphreys:
http://jesusneverexisted.com
I like to phrase the debate differently than “Jesus never existed,” because there were plenty of Jesuses in antiquity. Instead, I like to say that the “Jesus Christ” of the New Testament is a fictional compilation of characters, not a single historical individual. A compilation of multiple “people” is no one. When the mythological and midrashic layers are removed, there remains no historical core to the onion.
Many people find the understanding of Jesus as a myth and subsequently what that myth actually means to be quite freeing and empowering.
To me, every religion is a common sense thing now. They are all inspired by nature then it evolved as anthropomorphized deities then historicized by people who have so much attachment to it. But as history as shown, religious dogma has become so pathogenic lately. They are insisting that faith should not be put to scrutiny by science. They are mistreating gays like me, killing and torturing because of apostasy, and throttles science. And the worst of all, they are going to yell “racism” and/or “satanist/Islamophobia/enemy of the church” to silence anyone who lifts the embargo on religious doctrines.
Religious fanaticism cannot free societies because it is a form of slavery. It demands not only submission but to also protect the belief which is ironic considering how powerful the god of the cosmos is according to religionists, can’t he just smite HIS enemies instantly or why didn’t he revealed himself as the true religion way back in hunters and gatherers era?
Yes I’ve seen “Jesus never existed” site. It’s interesting also. I used some stuff from there before.
I remember this from your video “Great minds think alike”
“Jesus Christ” of the New Testament is a fictional compilation of characters, not a single historical individual. A compilation of multiple “people” is no one. When the mythological and midrashic layers are removed, there remains no historical core to the onion.”
Are you going to make more vids like that? Maybe more specifically on a certain area of mythicism. You did seem to cover alot. Just thought you may do more because so much to say in one video.
Hey, can you verify the legitimacy of this link that someone sent me?
http://www.sitehighway.com/gods-name-yhwh-in-hebrew-egyptian-gnostic-solar-icon/
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2010/03/08/The-Name-Yahweh-in-Egyptian-Hieroglyphic-Texts.aspx.
You should know that’s Glenn Miller, a fervent Christian apologist who does everything he can to uphold Christian doctrine. That being said, he includes some sound research that actually proves the correspondence in antiquity between Yahweh and IAO, including the solar association. Hence, all one need to say is that Yahweh does indeed equal IAO and that the latter was considered in antiquity to be a solar deity, as was Yahweh in significant part.
I write extensively about Yahweh-IAO and the solar connection in my books Suns of God and Did Moses Exist?
This one seems to be saying Mythicism is because of the translations etc…
http://av1611.com/kjbp/ridiculous-kjv-bible-corrections/Yahweh-Jehova-YHVH.html
I know you know alot about this, was wondering your take on it?
I doubt this Christian fanatic Hinton even knows what mythicism is, so he’s probably not addressing it directly. Anyone who speaks like this loses credibility: “This is not the only example of God’s name being perverted by modern atheist scholars.” No one is trying to “pervert” God’s name; nor are all of us “atheists.” That would be a very significant amount of atheists, if true. His article is marred by such snide and derisive comments, including calling people “Satanists.” Honestly, it’s hard to believe this guy is at Harvard. Yuck!
In any event, the Jewish tribal god Yahweh, Jehovah or whatever name one wishes to call him is largely solar in nature, as well as representing a storm god and so on, despite Hinton’s protestations and attempts at ridiculing more intelligent and less bigoted scholars into submission.
Thank you for the reply. I’m very interested in all this. I have so many Christians around me, some more knowledgeable than others & usually those ones more assertive with arguments.
I downloaded the Lockwood Buddhism relation to Christianity.
I’m waiting for a book of your authorship.
Thanks. If you keep listening to those fanatics, you’ll lose your mind, as they have theirs.
“If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane.”
Robert Green Ingersoll
I agree Jon I’m still learning. I have been reading. I used your comment as I thought to be helpful. I know a lot of Christians & my family mainly is too. I was strong into it before & now I walked away because of the numerous reasons we all mentioned. I was told that I wouldn’t go to my atheist friends & show them this stuff so I said I will but I don’t see the point. It was my own post that was seemingly antichristian, so people started commenting. I have been reading this site & other material. That’s why I’ve been dealing with the believers who are surprised I don’t feel the same as being so faithful to now not.
People send me these links where some I don’t have the answer to. Could be fake.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hxbc-Y9B7k0
I always struggled taking the Bible literally. I saw it as allegorical, metaphorical ways of life & explaining humanity’s artistic aspects of perception. I saw it as more a way to give hope. Unfortunately hope doesn’t always change facts. I actually did say there were many Jesus & The typical response was “that’s just another way to negate him.”
I thought to myself, when children die at younger innocent ages then they go to heaven with a free pass not knowing God, Jesus for acceptance but others actually have it worse to need to decide. To die young & innocent is better than to live longer to acknowledge sin etc…Animals have souls? Do they go to heaven? There’s many explanations on that. I would debate saying wouldn’t animals be just as important to God.
Questions like those & more I’ve asked ministers etc & no real good answers have I received so I started looking to answer my questions & see if could answer biblical contradictions. Found it was hard & I started to see it as a Myth of Motifs. I have been lately avoiding debates & studying.
I know how that feels. I was raised as a Roman Catholic and I went to Catholic schools in both elementary and high school as well as in a Catholic university so I’m quite cognizant of Christianity and the standard apologies. I remember in my senior year my theology teacher who is a priest said “After graduation, your faith will be challenged. Staying rooted to your Catholic faith will ensure eternal life.”
I am singing in a church choir and I was an altar boy for three years. In fact, I even considered going to priesthood when I was a kid. Good thing I pursued Science. When a friend sent me the link to Zeitgeist Part 1: The Greatest Story Ever Told, I was mad to whoever made that film because during those times I was a self-proclaimed apologist. The turning point of my life was when people would be willing to banish their gay children because the Bible says so or God says so. Also, the mere fact that there are around 33,000 different Christian denominations each one claiming to be the only path to salvation made me question why. So I the Bible cover to cover (NAB) and found anachronisms, contradictions, implausibilities, and absurd actions and repellant sayings. Then after reading Acharya S’s works and the works of others, I became an apostate.
Lol your funny JonM. The whole Bible passage linkage made me laugh. We’ll the drinking poison is a known later insertion. The cast the 1st stone of the adulteress was never in the original manuscripts. The zombie event may have been metaphorical from some say but that’s picking & Choosing the symbolical imagery. Lol its not recorded anywhere else.
I’m agreeing just was showing my struggles & I didn’t know enough about the historians as I should.
horus-ra-gesù il nemico di horus-ra-gesù era seth- SA-(E)TH-AN OVVERO SAT-AN RAPPRESENTANTE DELLA NOTTE-TENEBRE.NEI VANGELI CANONICI GESù SI DEFINISCE ,CON IL QUALE GLI ANTICHI EGIZI INDICAVANO UN UOMO EGIZIO, PER DISTINGUERLO DA UNO STRANIERO,il mito contiene sempre una base CONCRETA, sono gli eventi concreti ad essere poi mitizzati, come dalla concretezza nasce l’astrazione, gli dei antropomorfi egizi erano individui concreti venuti da altri pianeti.la tua ricerca dovrebbe tenere conto delle scoperte di sitchin, insomma ad acharya manca per essere completa, zecharia.
testi religiosi egizi-a cura di sergio donadoni
(CORANO)
riscrivo le frasi tagliate, gesù si definiva nei vangeli il figlio dell’uomo ecc.
le citazioni tagliate (erano tra virgolette)
e che egli è colui che ha creato i due generi,il maschio e la femmina, da una goccia di sperma quand’è eiaculata. e che è Lui il Signore di Sirio.(corano)
pra-harakte disse a khnum : costruisci una donna per bata perchè non sia solo, così khnum si mise a fargli una compagna, e il seme di ogni dio era in lei. Atum è quello che si manifestò in un atto onanistico a eliopoli. Egli mise il suo fallo nel suo pugno e ne ebbe voluttà, e generò due fratelli, S’ù e Tefnut.( testi religiosi egizi a cura di sergio donadoni)
Thank you, but my research does not need to take Sitchinism into account to be complete. I studied his work many year ago, when it first came out. He is simply wrong about the Anunnaki, Nibiru and ancient aliens.
http://truthbeknown.com/anunnaki.htm
Sitchin needed to take into account my work for his to be complete.
I hope you do research into Illuminati because it’s an everyday topic & scare to many. It’s supposedly a New world order & involves the Vatican & whatnot. It’s so much to it that it more than likely is blown out of proportion but people are buying into it because of the reinforcements like music pop artists with their music video imagery of death, sex,mocking Christianity etc…so this becomes another reinforcement for the Christian faith. The pope is said to be part of it with the symbolism of religious doctrines & the triangle all seeing eye. People are saying wars were influenced by this elite group. It in some ways reminds me of the other half of the Zeitgeist film with the combination of religion & government scandals & corruption.
I think with your expertise you would do an excellent book on it. It may not be of interest to you now but it is a big ordeal on the Internet & it’s difficult to decipher it as a whole because it’s a conspiracy theory about a secret occult but how secret if they aren’t hiding lol but many use this to say it’s Satanic & brainwashing the masses to get a control agenda for a New world order. Interesting yet crazy. Lol
Thanks. I’ve known about the Illuminati conspiracy theories for decades. They do not interest me so much, because they are highly unprovable and even if they were true, there is little we could do about them.
I do discuss the role of mystery schools, secret societies such as masonic, carpenter and smithy guilds and cults over the past several thousand years, however. I also touched upon the pope and secret societies in my first book The Christ Conspiracy. I don’t think there is anything to be added to the research of other writers on this subject, and it is simply not my passion.
Oh ok, thanks anyway for a reply to it.
About The Yamm notions, here is one of the many that suggests a strong link but more of a link to Baal. It’s a brief description.
http://www.ex-christian.net/blog/15/entry-276-the-evolution-of-yahweh/
Sure, insofar as Yahweh is supposedly “omnipotent” and has been syncretized to incorporate the attributes of many different deities, he would also be a sea god. Of course, the Israelites also worshiped “Baal,” a title that means “Lord” and was applied to Yahweh:
Hosea 2:16
I posted your Hosea verse & the same guy from last YHWH Talk Commented This :
“That text is a direct criticism of the worship of Ba’al. “You bozos are worshipping this Ba’al as a Lord, but I’m your only Lord. Not only that, but I treat you better than a brutish Lord, I treat you as a loved wife.” YHWH as a sea god, however, is ridiculous. YHWH is often portrayed as the defeater of the sea, the tamer of Yam, but not as a sea god himself. In fact YHWH traditionally was seen by other people’s as a God of the land, particularly mountains.”
The text is clear enough and doesn’t need his interpretation. If you want to know the origins of Yahweh and his relationship to the baalim and elohim of Canaan, again feel free to read Did Moses Exist? You will never get to the truth by listening to someone blindly believing in Iron Age fairytales as “history.”
I didn’t say that Yahweh was Yamm, so that’s not my debate. That being said, traditionally when a god defeats another, he takes on at least some of his attributes. In any event, the calming or controlling of the sea and water by the deity was repeated in the New Testament with the mythical tale about Jesus doing the same. It’s an old mythical motif dating back thousands of years, not history. Nor does this motif prove that one god – in this case Yahweh – is real and superior to the rest.
I replied
“The text of criticism is taken either or, both ways because you would have to line up what proves either side of that argument. To me it’s a weaker argument compared to the many other ones but Yahweh would be have to be God of all if was the one true God but it’s origins are not of Judaism. They always meshed gods characteristics back then & obviously he would not solely be a sea god yet more since that was what the Israelites strived to do. Mountains,yes I can see that since Mount Sinai & the sun& moon contrasting cults that were always mentioned in ancient times. Either way, way before that verse Yahweh points to evolving from Baal the competition.”
He then replies:
Your approach strains out tons of information that does not make sense in the favor of a few similarities. So an piece of imagery here looks similar, or a name there looks similar. But the Egyptian perspective on cosmology, sin, sacrifice, temple practice, the nature of divinity, death and afterlife, role of the king, etc. are all vastly different from Israel. For every little detail you are stretching to show connection, there are thousands that don’t line up. Its like eating pasta, sushi, and quesadillas and saying, “They all are salty, the chefs must have copied each other.”
He is simply babbling like someone lost and confused. Israel was not only in proximity to Egypt but Egyptians occupied the land several times before Israel was emerged as an ethnicity from the hills of Judea and Samaria. Egypt helped shape Israel in many ways. For the real, indepth scholarship about Israel and Egypt, see my book Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver. There is no way this person is as knowledgeable about these subjects as the erudition in my book. He simply does not know what he is talking about. Israel did not live in some pristine vacuum of theological correctness above and apart from its neighbors. That’s blind-believing and simpleminded nonsense.
You are wasting your time with this individual and his views.
See its stuff like this that people are talking about & linking it to illuminati. Similarly to zeitgeist stuff. I know you studied alot on history with wars & presidents etc…this being “free thought nation” website I figured you may have input on this, especially since they are saying Luciferian cults are the ones behind Banking systems & wars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfEBupAeo4
Was Moses a Lunar cult Deity?
http://youtu.be/HMJkcPNYD_U
He had some lunar elements, but he was also significantly solar. Again, take a look at my book Did Moses Exist? The question shows the correct line of thinking, that Moses was not a real person but is a rehash of a mythical god. In reality, he appears to be a syncretized compilation of a sun, moon, wine and serpent god.
Thanks. Ok I think that’s the next book I’ll get into. This reply will answer for the others. I understand what your saying & don’t object just I’m thrown loops to jump through. It’s clear to me they worshipped Ba’al but maybe the Hosea verse isn’t good enough for the obvious reason he & others would dispute. It’s figurative anyway so it of course can be twisted either direction but as you & I know there more references that prove it & of course external Non-Biblical texts show it as well.
The Hosea verse is just fine, especially if one knows that the Israelites emerged from the Canaanites and Babylonians, and that Yahweh is part of the same pantheon of elohim and baalim. This Christian apology is simply weak and can be ignored.
When you read Did Moses Exist?, you will be introduced to the Ugaritic texts, which reveal much about pre-Israelite religion and its precedents.
I tell people you are great scholar material but they ignore it. This was said to me:
“Mythicism is not scholarship. There is no field of mythicism. You can’t get a degree in mythicism. It’s just a word that some guy made up to get people to listen to his ranting. I’m talking about studying archaeology, anthropology, sociology, religion, and other real fields with real traditions and real degrees and real publications. Carrier is a historian, but even then one with an exceedingly eccentric and minority opinion which the vast majority of historians would call rubbish.”
I gave an example of R.carrier being not as in depth as you & no wonder why, because it’s mind boggling trying to answer people & you seem to do it very well but I do must say it’s difficult for people to wrap their preconceived beliefs around the many similarities. Meaning you have so many comparisons that they think your just trying to manipulate & lie, making up stuff. Do you have a main article to cover the historical facts like The early church cover ups & Constantine? Because then this is asked:
“Just because people disagree with something doesn’t mean there is any doubt about its truth. I can find someone who would disagree with anything. The fact that a dude named Jesus existed in the first century, for example, is a clear historical fact. Sure some extremists will challenge it, but we can’t listen to everyone that says anything.
That’s a far question. For me we have to ask, “How did Christianity start?” If the stories were all fictitious, how did people in Judah and Gaililee ever believe them? They knew this guy! The people had met him and saw him live. Yet thousands signed on for a religion that soon was heavily persecuted. Why would anyone do that? How does Christianity ever grow among a population that could easily falsify the information? They could have gone to the former lepers and blind people, etc. and asked if the stories were true. It should have been easy to debunk.”
Of course, I’ve heard all kinds of derogatory trash from utter ignoramuses, and what you’ve quoted above is just more of the same. Those comments sounds like they’re coming from someone with a very average IQ of 100 or so. This person also reveals he has not studied the subject of mythicism AT ALL and is therefore not an expert on it and can be ignored. “Mythicism” is a word to describe the acceptance of biblical fabulous fairytales as MYTHS, which they clearly are. Mythicism incorporates the sciences of archaeology, history, astronomy, mythology, languages and others in order to determine and explain these myths. Studying myths or mythology assuredly is part of a liberal arts curriculum, so he’s just being ridiculous, as we would expect from a fanatic.
This is all the logical fallacy of credentialism. The fact is that many of the leading institutions in the “West,” including Australia, were founded as Christian seminaries. They have worked hard to keep mythicism out of the picture, because it destroys their fallacious perspective and lucrative business model.
You are correct that Carrier’s work is shallow and simply scratches the surface. He is not a historian of Jesus mythicism, so his opinions are not relevant either, as far as I am concerned.
This is where the mediocre intelligence shines forth. There were probably several “dudes named Jesus” in the first century, since Joshua/Jesus was a common name, and we find mention of some 20 Jesuses in Josephus. But it is none of their stories being told in the New Testament, which is clearly based on ancient myths from around the Mediterranean.
The comment below shows how far gone is this believer – he’s totally out to lunch on early Christian history. All he does is repeat the mindless propaganda of the Bible.
Not true at all. There is not a shred of evidence that anyone during the early first century had ever heard of this wonderworking Jesus of Nazareth. The entire historical and archaeological record is devoid of such an individual. What we do have, however, are all the myths that have the same basic framework of the gospel tale.
The true history of Christianity did not begin until the second century, when the story was backdated and placed into a historical framework.
If this person were really an expert on mythicism as he pretends to be, he would know all of the rebuttals to these silly beginner’s questions. They are merely the first step in the long path of Jesus mythicist studies. If he wishes to sound credible, intelligent and educated, he will need actually to study the subject rather than making childishly dismissive comments and logical fallacies.
I won’t keep going with it since it gets no where but here’s the argument he holds to seem legit over mine.
“To summarize my point, you keep taking small side issues where we see similarities, and making that the core of your argument. The big picture story, however, of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, etc. are all very different. They answer the big questions (Who are we? Why are we here? What is the problem of our world? What is the solution?) VERY differently. To suggest they are all cut from the same cloth is to disregard their own teachings and make them say what you WANT them to say or what you ASSUME them to say. I have various presuppositions I work off of, we all do, but I don’t use those presuppositions to change the content of what someone else says.”
The problem is you are fighting straw men. El in the word Israel or as a name for God means precisely nothing. Its a generic Semitic word for God. Its like suggesting that a Muslim talking about God and a Hindu talking about the gods are talking about the same religion because they use the same words. Linguistic connections prove exactly nothing. I’m all for learning, but what you are getting is not actual information from scholarly reputable sources. Blogs and youtube are a free for all with no systems for verifying the truth of an idea.”
I replied :
So do you think Egypt had no huge influence on IsarELites? actually there’s strong similarities on some of them. It’s like saying all restaurants don’t have the same outlined ideas. The names may be different & foods but the idea of it is very similarly done. Not everyone preaches the same yet its still the same idea. No one wants to say they are cut from the same cloth unless they like what it is. If everyone came from Adam & Eve in which the names weren’t originally there but that’s irrelevance to this, but if we came from them then we are of the same cloth. Humanity is of the same with different cultures & practices that boil down to your “what is the problem of our world? Why are we here?” Etc…maybe it’s just intelligence of the evolution process? It’s not changing them what WANT them to be if you are repeating what it says or if some is the same meanings in different words, slang etc… plus assumptions are from the very interpretations in itself saying what one possibly meant, no? For years there’s been different translations on things because people ASSUME. If the government is not what people like & things look bad then that may reinforce evil schemes in religious & even non-religious notions, is it assuming or is it a plausible observation? There’s now science ok disorders, is it demons or am I assuming either or? Obviously it depends on the spectrum for most of this hasn’t been narrowed down so it becomes self conviction from whatever perspective holds. Look at Ninja Turtles, They Now Look More Ancient Like Tribal warriors. That may sound silly but there was changes to a more serious look. The appeal of everything shifts whether one is paying attention or not. Alot points to Constantine days too. He knew of alot of different deities, especially Mithra which early Church father Justin Martyr says demons knew Christianity was being formed since Mithraism predates it.
I agree with parts of The El comment but it is in scholarly reputable sources & your right it proves the lesser of the over all picture. There’s many other things to discuss but EL is used for both sides of the argument. Not true about not getting from Scholar sources? Why would you say that, what’s your sources that are?
He’s in denial, and – again – you’re wasting your time with him. If he’s writing on a blog or doing Youtube videos, he’s shooting himself in the foot by appealing to the source fallacy.
Agree but he’s saying that about me too because I don’t know everything but he also assumes what I may or may not know.
“How do you know Enoch was in the canon? Do you event understand how canonization took place? Have you ever read a single church father from cover to cover? And which church father connects Judaism with lunar deities? Where in the Bible does it say the world is flat? What about the passages that call the world a sphere? Are you aware of the vast ancient iconography that is ALL aware of a round earth? Are you aware the Belle and the Dragon is canonical for Catholics? Do you know why Catholic and Protestant canons differ? Name one detail of the Sinai account that has jack squat to do with a lunar deity. Has anyone in the history of the planet worshipped Moses at all, much less as a lunar deity? You are making yourself look stupid by talking about all sorts of things you don’t understand. You are not doing your intellect any justice by allowing yourself to get yanked around by every quack on the internet that is trying to brainwash you with this poorly researched, ignorant bullcrap. I really love you searching, but man you are moving increasingly away from legitimate intellectual challenges into a lala land of nut jobs.”
I’ve replied with the bible verse of where it says it’s clear they meant flat & tried to answer the rest as best as I could. I just try to help the ones who do believe, especially since they commented on my Facebook initially saying I’m wrong. One of them isn’t worth posting the comments. Simply ridiculous & it’s lesser of the arguments this one makes because he’s gone to school for it & ministers so I figured I’d debate with more knowledgeable than ones who don’t get it at all. Like no nothing but scripture & even that they just know the main key contents that are used for sermons.
This person is talking to himself. His questions reveal his ignorance. He takes things literally when it suits his own views and then claims biblical concepts are not to be taken literally when it suits his fancy.
He sounds like a cult leader who is trying to coerce you into following him. Definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed. I’ll put my 150+ IQ and 40 years of erudition up against his any day. I would walk away at this point. He’s got nothing to offer you except the same old dumb biblical junk that’s been refuted endlessly over the centuries.
Yea your right, I kind of just gave up. Only reasons I kept going is to try to educate & because he commented 1st on my original post & asked questions. That was funny, about went to lunch on Early Christian history. I posted The Jesus’s & Their Stories. He asked me how do I know the book of Enoch was originally I’m the Canon & how do I know how the Canonization took place, etc.etc…
If it’s supposed to be all The word of God then why fight about what goes In & why leave out stories like book of Enoch that Judaism treasured & apparently Job thought much of him. Enoch & Revelation imagery resembles Egypts book of the dead. If “4 corners of the earth” doesn’t mean flat then what does it mean because north, south, west & east don’t align as a box shape & have no real boundaries besides what Humans put it as.
Why does R.carrier bash you so much? Is he Jealous?
When the Same Christian said this in a previous comment I posted way above, ” William Dever’s “Who are the ancient Israelites and Where did they come from?” He will argue Israel did not spend time in Egypt, but thus also there is no way that YHWH is an Egyptian deity.” I thought was interesting how The author William actually argues Exodus happening but is a fervent Christian. Maybe to try & prove YHWH is original in Judaism lol
Seems like it to me. He’s got a chip on his shoulder, and he’s admitted he is no expert on the history of Jesus mythicism, which I am. Let us also not forget that misogyny and sexism are still alive and well within academia.
You should check the forum post “Stupid things Richard Carrier has said and done”. http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4771#p4771
All he does is bludgeon, verbally attack, and insult people whether that person is a mythicist or apologist. For a person who has read three of his books, he does only scratch the surface which can be blamed for his idea that pre-1950 scholarship should be ignored. Not to mention he cusses like a sailor. Exampe of which is his rebuttal book against J.P. Holding namely “Not The Impossible Faith”, while Carrier’s points are mostly correct he often misses the big picture like when Holding said “no one would worship a crucified god except Christians”. Carrier said, the Babylonians do like the goddess Inana/Ishtar who is crucified, died, and rose again after three days. He’s right, but Carrier failed to mention what drives the ancients to believe in the crucifixion which by reading Suns of God and Christ In Egypt, it is the solstices and equinoxes. Take it from me, I got college professors that got PhD but are actually crappy teachers. While certainly credentials are useful, it can sometimes lead to stifling of critical thinking and knowledge because that degree confines you to that given axiom. Example, I will never get surgery from a med school drop out but to say a med school fresh grad is wrong about prescribing tylenol for headache is bullcrap.
Jon I agree. Actually most of my debate was saying just because someone has a PhD doesn’t mean they are always right. One mentioned Doctors to me with analogies of how to treat an injury properly like instead of applying a bandaid, use peroxide, Neosporin. I laughed because I wasn’t sure if they were saying my research is just applying peroxide without further seeing into the cut & the science of the body’s reaction & infection. They were trying to compare pasta & shrimp & quesadilla into a plate metaphor for saying I’m meshing things with no thorough research yet it doesn’t mirror comparative religion. Quesadilla is still cheese & chicken, beef within bread & macaroni is still pasta no matter the alterations like adding shrimp to pasta. It’s still a seafood dish. A Baptism is still a Baptism even if the practice was different. Crucifixion is a crucifixion even if one wasn’t nailed but tied up somehow. This may sound silly but Ninja Turtles now look more serious, are they different? Not really since they still are teenage ninja turtles. Michelangelo is still goofy, Raphael is still the stubborn independent aggressor, Donatello is still the brains,technology geek, Leonardo is still the honorable leader no matter how much the look of them or the themes change, they are the same concept that emerged into ancient like warriors, samurai type concepts & are still Turtles. All named after Italian Renaissance artists.
“These are all famous artists from that era. You may remember Leonardo da Vinci as the artist who painted the Last Supper, and the Mona Lisa. Michelangelo painted the Sistine chapel, including the depiction of Genesis with God reaching out to Adam on the ceiling. Donatello was a famous sculptor. Many of Raphael\’s paintings can be found in the Vatican”
That may sound silly but I think you get my point & I’m throw dumb examples so I literally will debate every little thing of opinion when it’s said I’m assuming but Like Murdock said they “are talking to/about their selves.” I don’t know the exact wording for quoting her & don’t want to scroll to look but yes your right about the profession talk & Carrier probably just doesn’t care to look into what he doesn’t understand or because he has enough to know it’s a myth & just figures to use the easier more common approach but Murdock definitely put her work in, I must say. Oh then there’s the obvious where a nonbeliever just doesn’t dig further into myths because it’s not an interest to them but it’s good we have a thorough one.
I apologize for the typos. I type fast & the phone tries to wrong me not auto correct it lol. Now Biblehub.com has “Duck commander” “Duck Dynasty Bible”???
Another big repeated question is “why is Christianity persecuted & unlike Buddhism Christians are persecuted” etc…then some how that reinforces the belief that ties in with scripture saying you will be & hold on to & have faith, don’t let the devil lead you astray type ordeal.
I completely agree with this:
“While certainly credentials are useful, it can sometimes lead to stifling of critical thinking and knowledge because that degree confines you to that given axiom.”
Everything you said about him not knowing Mythicism, I said that too. I like that we both had similar replies.
I want to get into Mythicism more. Is there classes?
You would need to read my books, because there is no such course that I know of. There are, however, relatively tame and shallow comparative religion and mythology courses one can take. We’ve spoken about setting a curriculum many times, but I personally do not have the time or wherewithal to do all the work it requires. It would be nice if I weren’t so bound by economic restraints, or I could do much more.
What’s your take on this:
“Modern people use the phrase “corner of the earth.” It doesn’t mean that they believe the world is flat. It’s and idiom. Again “ends of the earth” is an idiom, not an expression of cosmological understanding. And almost every one of those texts are highly figurative visions. Daniel doesn’t believe that any tree could be high enough to be seen from the entire earth. It’s poetic license. It’s like reading love poetry and taking it literally.”
My take is that if it’s the same person who is haranguing you over mythicism, and now he’s admitting the Bible contains non-literal allegory, he’s quite confused, to say the least.
Many know me as a Christian & with or without it I’ve been considered a credible debater, not because I just look to do so but because I use logic within my beliefs that are at the same time indeed abstract as one would say about my writings of poetry & Rhymes & other work. They look at it like I fell off the boat or missed it.
Pantheism actually seems more plausible then most religious notions. If I were God, I’d make a universe & play init. Einstein was seemingly a Pantheist yet his last letter said he was holding to a Agnostic view.
Him- “Modern people use the phrase “corner of the earth.” It doesn’t mean that they believe the world is flat. It’s and idiom. Again “ends of the earth” is an idiom, not an expression of cosmological understanding. And almost every one of those texts are highly figurative visions. Daniel doesn’t believe that any tree could be high enough to be seen from the entire earth. It’s poetic license. It’s like reading love poetry and taking it literally.”
Me- I must say though the idiom is used several times though & other notions point to not just Biblical texts but others who thought it was flat but that’s land. The sphere can be the obvious look when look above at how we seem to be in a bubble shape. 4 corners could have related to north, east, south, west but that’s an assumption too because that’s usually a cross looking directory. They did use a lot of cosmological writings too so I mean I guess it’s up to the interpreter to take it for what it is but there are no Ends of the earth either. Obviously you can’t see all the kingdoms from a mountain unless it’s referring to just those near by areas. Either way that’s not God’s word is it? Just poetry.
So when they all use the same description it’s talked about, or they copy from previous texts? Since there’s different authors for the different books. Did they copy it because Revelation being later than most as far as old testament goes. Matthew saying the devil take Jesus to a high mountain to show him what he already knows? What’s the purpose to show the kingdoms, as a bribe, like Jesus can’t do it himself without the devil & surely can get the kingdoms without too so I find the whole desert story interesting since no one else was there, so who told Matthew? Trying to understand why they all repeat the same idioms as if they just are reiterating what was read before.
Him- “Idioms are necessarily a repetition. It became an idiom because people used it over and over. Jesus apparently tells his followers about the temptation, since he was the only one present, and they shared the story. As to why Satan shows Jesus the kingdoms, my take on the whole temptation narrative is that Jesus at that point is still figuring out who he is. Satan is trying to get him to doubt this feeling in his stomach that he might be the Lord’s anointed. He’s also trying to tempt him into using power and force to bring change, not love and sacrifice.”
Me- Idioms can be used as a repetitious cliché but are not necessarily redundant. Clearly it was because like anything it’s a subconscious choice of words to express the situation. Like “don’t break up with me, I love you from the bottom of my heart, my love is deeper than the ocean & I put nothing above you standing on a mountain top. ” your take on the Jesus thing is nice, it really only leaves that assumption but that doesn’t mean it is that. You say Idiom, I say Motif which continues the themes of a literary composition. Saying it’s an idiom can be the same as metaphorical. It’s patterning concepts of tradition & using real emotions as poetry would do. The question is did the earliest of Christians take that as a Idiom for that is a modern view. They took it literal or not? Even if it’s a metaphoric expression than what is meant by “ends of the world” if there isn’t & “4 corners” as of its a rectangular shape or square.
What about Jesus in The Garden when he prays & they are all sleeping? How does anyone know? Assuming Jesus told them when it would have said “Jesus then told me or us” because it does for many other things within old & new testament stating what one says. It’s written in 3rd person like most ancient stories. The narrator always knows where their characters are & what they said. If I’m wrong then I apologize but it’s very sensible to claim this view & there’s nothing I have yet to hear or read to prove otherwise.
Him- ” Yes I agree completely with that last comment which also works the other way where one who believes it happening can’t view any mythic views to it since it’s a opposition contrasting. There is still points to ask because not all stories are completely false either. That’s One Way to See It as, after the Resurrection But is that Within the context? Couldn’t he have told them when they woke up & he was still alive? Although it doesn’t say that & even then many wouldn’t believe if it said that with no other proof but the Gospels in themselves. I’m not sure about to say impossible, although that is easier to assume & have more inclination to truth if no one ever has rose from the dead but I guess that can go deep into is Egyptians right about their resurrections & reincarnations & other cultures who has these views. If they are right then the plausibility of Jesus would be more. I didn’t start with the thinking of “resurrection is impossible”, I started seeing into details & definition conflicts & contradictions. I questioned why this & that & why other cultures have predating resurrections. Yea anyone can copy something & still be true even if not original but I guess that depends what it is. When a better quarterback than most is labeled the best or most popular, it may be true on many levels of “Why” is he the best. Still there were many other quarterbacks before him. Maybe he passes better than all & has more agility & speed. While one before could throw further than any other but lacked everything else. Analogies only go so far but even if one thought it didn’t happen that doesn’t mean they can’t change their mind if the evidences or plausibility weighs in. Still The Garden part may only be believed if the resurrection was but if one believes then there’s only a few assumptions to say what happened.
No one jotted it down right away so it could have been forgotten how it happened but the prayer is in a common theme of 3 times. We’re only Peter & the 2 sons of zebedee there? Then they fall asleep as we’re to watch, so what’s the proximity & clearly the 3rd time he left them since they were tired. Awake then not. Did he talk to himself while they slept still as yelling at sleeping people? Did they hear part of the prayer then fell asleep. was It Just assumed as Maybe a Common prayer? How do they know he said the same thing each time, 3 times if they were sleeping & the 3rd time he left them to pray for certain & said the same repetitious prayer. It’s as if the author wants the reader to know not that Jesus would have to literally repeat himself to God. Plus since I’m taking about Matthew 26:36-46 then Matthew heard from Jesus or the disciples or maybe just none of this matters if you believe in the very end of the story. I just think one would want to know.
Him-” You bring up Egypt, but this comes back to one of my main points with you. Egypt’s afterlife and Israel’s are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. There is almost ZERO similarity. The comparison, for example, of Jesus and Osiris is a classic mistake. To do so shows that one has spent inadequate time with Jesus stories, Osiris stories, or both. Its a face value comparison that makes sense, which falls apart if you actually understand the two.”
Please see the last comment on Egypt.
His assessment of Egyptian religion and claims to distinguish it from Judaism and Christianity are transparently false and part of the same Judeo-Christian supremacist effort at disparaging paganism while essentially stealing its common doctrines. This person’s opinions on Egyptian religion and myth are WORTHLESS. The comparisons between Jesus and Osiris were made in antiquity by numerous individuals, including the bulk of Coptic Christians. This sort of denialism is a mental illness, not a sign of integrity. It is he who has not spent enough time with the Egyptian religion and myths, because he clearly does not know what he is talking about. Christians are told not to study the “filthy paganism,” and he fits right in with this ignorance. I grow weary of his opinions, frankly, as they are utterly dismissible.
Yea I figured as much, it’s nice to hear it in different words & I agree it’s them not making the connection but they think I’m just mixing stuff in a pool without jumping in & diving to see what sank but is part of what floats. It’s like I’m going to the deep end so the shallow perceptions of it conflict with what they can’t see because they don’t swim away from standing in the shallow side & then say I’m drowning yet they afraid to get their heads wet. I went to a theological open debate & was some intense opinions thrown in too. The point of the chat was the focus on “Resurrection” & if it’s not believed then what’s the back side up to it worth. Basically say why care on historicity if don’t see The paul point on 1st Colossians. Christianity resets on the resurrection. It was like 4 hrs or more. Of course people drifted off the main topic but nearly everyone did to reinforce their points. My why did Josephus mention John the Baptist death as a different account than the gospels was quickly ignored with “were not talking about that but about this” & was because of a different character was mentioned at the same time & a few seconds of silence made me ask. Anyway I was basically the black sheep & some were happy I went because it kept a neutrality rather than swing one way. I was told I had good points, even on a broad opinion that talked about religions in general & I’m very detailed in most conversations. I probably think too fast which can lead to abstract projections. In any case, they understood my main arguments & they agreed on the contradictions & that when I pointed out Mark being copied off of & his ends at 16:8 & the later insertions etc…I then said even if Peter told Mark this testimony as the church tries to uphold then we merely are going on hearsay, not eye witness accounts. Peter would have received the message from Mary Magdalene in John’s Gospel or the other ones with whatever Women were there & then their message from an Angel, 2 Angels or a Man in white. They were trying to say why can’t different people have different accounts like would happen today if there were testimonies to an event. They said if was a cover up, what’s the motive & it’s very sloppy to be considered as. Basically saying it’s not trying to hide errors. Then they said why use women to be witnesses when they didn’t hold validity as a male would. They acknowledged political powers & reasoning of religions in general but that the Romans were good at killing & didn’t want any up rising threat to be followed etc…they obviously see no fictional characters so that becomes the main road block. I respectively insinuated clearly my belief was what if it was a Motif since was in times of them & how come other mythical stories were believed & tried to answer the why Jews were timid to now crazy over this uprising. They say it doesn’t make sense for Jesus to be every Mythical Messiah & they can see similarities but there’s major differences & one did mention the Osiris connection saying that Osiris never leaves the underworld or something, I’m not sure I don’t remember some of the statements if was weaker of the latter. That’s why I want to know more on the comparative religions.$ is tight right now but I’ll be looking into your books for sure. I can’t ignore someone like you who put just as much effort into your arguments. I need to review both. They were telling me to read “the resurrection of the son of God” by N.T Wright. I figured you would know of his work. At one point it was said people approach God wrong saying how he should be instead of finding what God is like & that if God doesn’t suit our liking then slowly it goes in reverse of getting to know God. They also said Judaism goes one direction in time with no cycle like Buddhism & said “well time is an illusion anyway so the perceiving mind has to grasp a sense of it to know direction like right & left. If you went one direction eventually you get back to the same spot. Obviously aging reflects a time that’s difficult to dispute where physicality reveals certain truths the mind can play with but not the eye.” I was told if you want more proof & focus on Jesys hours like one example I gave that i felt was weaker than most my statements was where it states “there will be no sign to this generation” then another Gospel says “one sign” then another “many signs” then Jesus saying will be like Jonah 3 days & 3 nights in the belly of the earth instead. I said “wasn’t Jesus dead for 2 full days & no 3rd night, not even another full day?” One said time was different then & the day & night didn’t matter & something about taking certain words out of context such as “coming soon” where one can say soon is a few hours to a few days. Because I said paul sounds different & in time changed his mind on things. They said yes it seems that way & agreed but with other mentioning I don’t recall because it didn’t seem that much of a point. One example they gave was slang & how things aren’t always literal where one can say to a “you coming soon?” “Soon, I’m already there.” Even though not there…clearly that the end result was basically people are afraid of death, there’s corruption, what’s the point being here as in Life’s purpose & no one wants to die to possibly go to Hell etc…those were the reinforcements I told them would be there & necessary for a direction. Many things I’ve heard before but people put in different words, when one said “there’s only so much the mouth can make for sounds. So there will be similar pronunciations & have different meanings.” My point was everything, including language starts from one origin & it’s nearly impossible to travel & not be influenced. Basically The Egyptian origin of Satan wasn’t impressive to some because they say not all same sounding words mean the same thing nor mean they came from another. I was like then how do you know what Religion is saying what & know meanings behind a word? I went on saying many cultures have those similar beliefs but some differences & maybe ancient times were trying to explain why we are here & using uncertain beliefs as a comfort. I tried saying why is one religion better than another & that went into detailed opinions. Why is God’s message so conflicting & so many other religions think their the right way & some don’t know of each other. Basically it came down to faith, hope even if there’s not much evidence.
Is this guy N.T Wright really considered in the top 5 Historians/theologians like some say? Seems like just another fervent apologist to me.
The egyptian creator god Ptah created everything in the universe through words just as the god of The Bible created through words.