Kirk Cameron’s absurdly ignorant Christmas message

Kirk Cameron saves ChristmasOne of the world’s most famous Christian apologists, Hollywood actor Kirk Cameron, steps into the Christmas fray with nonsensical declarations that this time of the year – the winter solstice – has nothing to do with paganism and everything to do with Jesus Christ. This claim is patently absurd and easily disproved.

Here’s an excerpt of a long discussion of December 25/winter solstice in my book Christ in Egypt: The “Calendar of Antiochus” refers to that of a resident of Athens about 200 AD/CE in which December 25th is named as the “sun’s birthday” or the “birthday of Helios.” In this regard, Dr. Stefan Weinstock states:

…In Egypt and in Greece the terms of human life were applied to the Sun. It was thought to be a child at its rise in the morning, an adult at its culmination and an old man at its setting. The same view was applied to its annual course: child at the winter solstice, youth in the spring, adult in the summer, and old man in the autumn. Thus the course of the Sun in its lifetime, and we should expect that states of this “life” were marked in the calendars, from the time that they became solar calendars. Yet in Greek calendars, corresponding entries were missing until Boll published in 1910 the Calendar of Antiochus which contains the entry to 25th December Ήλίου γενέθλιον· αυξει φως [Birth of the Sun: the light increases], and lends strong support to the famous entry of Philocalus…: “N(atalis) Invicti.” This emergence of the “birthday” of the Sun caused much sensation and some controversy because of its obvious relevance to the Christian tradition concerning Christmas and Epiphany.

Concerning the “birthday of the Sun on 25th December,” Weinstock continues:

In the preceding night the Egyptians carried from a sanctuary the image of a new-born child, the Sun, and shouted that “the Virgin has born,” and that the light is increasing… “

Not only do we have ancient texts indicating the origins of Christmas as having to do with ancient winter solstice celebrations such as the birth of “Sol Invictus,” the Roman sun god, but we also have numerous ruins worldwide aligned archaeoastronomically to the sunrise at the winter solstice, as part of ancient sun worship. These many ruins – some of which date back thousands of years before Christ’s alleged advent – are highlighted in our Astrotheology Calendar series.

It is blatantly clear why Christ’s birthday was placed at this time: Because the winter solstice was one of the most important holidays in antiquity, especially in regions above the equator that experienced a great deal of darkness.

The holiday is placed at midnight on December 24th or the morning of December 25th because the ancients observed the sun’s “stutter step” at sunrise on December 21st, the shortest day of the year, for three days afterwards, until it made a clear movement back north. This is why this period is called “solstice,” which means “sun stands still.” Here is why a number of gods, goddesses and other solar figures were said to be “born” around the winter solstice. In reality, the month of December – and two weeks in November and January – are full of winter light celebrations, as illustrated in my 2010 Astrotheology Calendar:

December light celebrations - CLICK TO ENLARGEAs I have stated previously, Jesus represents the sun from the winter to summer solstice, while John the Baptist, said biblically to have been born six months earlier than Jesus, is the sun from the summer to winter solstice.

Whether or not Cameron or other Christians wish to be honest about the holiday, “Christmas” was originally pagan through and through, and was taken over by Christianity.

Further Reading

New research exposes hidden relationship between Jesus and John the Baptist

When Was the First Christmas?

Kirk Cameron Hopes Audiences ‘Throw Both Arms Around Their Christmas Tree’ After Watching ‘Saving Christmas;’ Challenges Pagan Ownership of Holiday

Kirk Cameron Says Pagans Stole Christmas From Christians

Kirk Cameron: Don’t drink the pagan ‘Kool-Aid’ about Christmas, historians ‘don’t know this stuff’

The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is NOT the “Reason for the Season”

Was Horus Born on December 25h of a Virgin?

Dionysus Born on December 25th of a Virgin

Attis Born on December 25th of a Virgin

Mithra the Pagan Christ Born on December 25th

The Truth History of Christmas

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  1. LOL, I can see Kirk Cameron and other Christians following in the foot steps of their climate change deniers who say “I’m not a scientist…” by saying “I’m not a historian ….”

    They are nothing but revisionists creating a biased and bigoted false history. That’s what Christians specialize in more than just about anything else.

  2. So he’s engaging a straw man argument for saying that Christmas had nothing to do with pagans. He seem to forget that the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that Christmas was based on the birth of Sol Invictus and even Mithra. He is also ignorant of the astronomical events during December 22.

    Furthermore, even Plutarch made a commentary that the sun god Horus (Harpocrates) was born in the winter solstice, infant-like and unfinished.

  3. Why was Jesus/Christianity “invented” when there were apparently already plenty of other gods/reliigions to believe in at the time?

    1. Thanks for the query. As I explain in my books, Christianity was created in order to unify the diverse religions, sects and cults of the Roman Empire under one state religion. The first efforts were made to unify the warring factions in Egypt of the Egyptians, Greeks and Jews. During the first centuries surrounding the common era, the hybrid god Serapis was created specifically for that purpose. Evidently it wasn’t strongly Jewish enough, so the Jesus figure was created to incorporate that faction, which was quite populous and powerful at Alexandria, where much of the Christian effort was committed.

    2. Because Christianity is a government project

  4. Gerald Massey – ” It has often been a matter of wonderment why the birthday of the Son of God on earth should be celebrated as a festival of unlimited gorging and guzzling. The explanation is that the feast of Christmas Day is a survival of the ancient Uaka festival, with which the rebirth of the Nilotic year was celebrated with uproarious revellings and rejoicings, as the festival of returning food and drink. It was at once the natal-day of the Nile, and of the Messu or Messianic child under his various names. It is called the birthday of Osiris in the Ritual (ch. 130). Osiris, or the young god Horus, came to earth as lord of wine, and is said to be “full of wine” at the fair Uaka festival. The rubric to chapter 130 states that “bread, beer, wine, and all good things” are to be offered to the manes upon the birthday of Osiris, which, in the course of time, became equivalent to our New Year’s festival, or Christmas Day. The grapes were ripe in Egypt at the time the imagery was given its starry setting. This offers a datum as determinative of time and season. The times might change in heaven’s “enormous year”; other doctrines be developed under other names; the grapes be turned to raisins. But the old Festival of Intoxication still lived on when celebrated in the name of Christ. The babe that is born on Christmas Day in the morning is Horus of the inundation still.”

  5. I had an interesting conversation with a Christian fundie last night. He’s a member of a Christian denomination here in the Philippines who they call themselves “Church of Christ” and they claim that they are restoring the church built by Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church is the “whore of Babylon” according to Revelation 17:5.

    This cult he belongs tries to distance itself from the rest of the Christian denominations by claiming everything outside of them is pagan and evil. This cult of his do not celebrate Christmas or Easter because they believe it is so pagan and evil. For example, Christmas: he was right that Christians lifted it from the cult of Sol Invictus but I explained to him that in the book of Matthew and Luke, all of those Nativity scenes predate pagan worship before Jesus is even born like:

    1. Born by a virgin/maiden
    2. A star in the east signaling the birth followed by three kings/magi
    3. Crucified, died, and rose again after three days, etc.

    I even showed him the birth cycles inscription in Luxor. I asked him if everything pagan is evil, that means Christianity is also evil. I even quoted verbatim the Justin Martyr apology. I also showed him that contrary to the standard apologies that the cross is a symbol of punishment, it is actually a symbol of eternal life and pagans have been aware of that. The Babylonian goddess Inana/Ishtar is also crucified, died, and rose again after three days. Then of course, his response to me is that the devil is working hand in hand with me and that I should stop. Too bad though this man can cite more Bible verses than I do.

  6. Wow, I just read a HuffPo article and this guy is also a dimwit (cough* Affleck). He was wrong. Even NT scholars and people with M.Div say that Christmas is an adaptation of the pagan ones.

    Long time ago in Egypt so the ancient texts do say
    Isis’s born child Horus was born on Solstice day
    Hark now hear the pagans sing
    A new sun is born today
    And people will live forever more
    Because of Solstice Day

    I remembered Acharya’s solstice song

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/12/kirk-cameron-christmas_n_6149592.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

    http://blogs.christianpost.com/bright-ideas/the-history-of-christmas-infographic-13464/

    1. Hey, I posted some of this on a blog & a friend said: “God tells all through His word not to celebrate nor have anything to do with them. And Gods holidays where to always be observed . And the Church that Christ established did not observe any such customs. ”

      They don’t seem to get the solstice aspects. They say the pagan festivals & celebrations has nothing to do with Jesus or that scripture doesn’t teach it or it wasn’t observed by Jesus or approved & God was against such practices. I put the 6 months John the Baptist before Jesus winter/summer solstice & part of the issue is they see the characters as non-fictional.

      1. Yes, we know that the blind believers stick their fingers in their ears and cover their eyes, and say, “Nyah, nyah, nyah!” There’s just no communicating with them over these issues. They remain incorrect in their perceptions nonetheless.

        1. Hey why do people insist on talking about Jesus b day not being xmas & that it would be sept, Oct ? I posted why the church picked Dec 25th because it was a common deity birthdate etc…then someone said:

          “Jesus never told us to celebrate his birthday but to remember his death at the Passover & He was not born in December . Jesus was born no later than the beginning of October .”

          I said- ” Yes your correct on that notion but since there’s absolutely no shred of Evidence at all. The church knew they had to pick a date. With the rise of so much religion there needed a political movement to integrate the pagans too. They picked the most popular but not only that but based on solstice aspects of seasons. They took paganism & historical figures & meshed it. There’s more evidence to support this than for an actual historicity.”

          He said- ” That is a nice opinion , but it’s not scriptural . The Church never celebrated what we call Christmas because they that such things were pagan . CHRIST told us to celebrate his death , not his birth . We are not to celebrate a His b- day no matter what day it is . It is a Babylonian pagan day that Holy Roman Empire with Constantine adopted to pervert true Christianity .”

          I replied- a lot of teachings aren’t actually scriptural. No one knows his b day because look at the Gospels. They are not real stories. There’s not even proof of the disciples which represents the zodiac that transformed numerous times like many relics & concepts. Not everyone agrees with the astrotheological aspects of this but many can denounce the historicity. Richard Carrier & D.M Murdock despise each other but Carrier doesn’t care to know the depth of it all. He may be a smart historian but he lacks in the field of mythicism.

          1. Once again these fundies you’re arguing with are raising a strawman. Where in the NT it says that the Jewish Messiah was born on October? Where in the scriptures it says that we should celebrate his death not his birth? None! We are discussing mythical motifs here that predates antiquity and later stitched together in the gospels/epistles for political hegemony and it worked.

            Easter: Christian or Pagan? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N706g2MspH0
            page 60 of Suns of God http://goo.gl/YQspLm

            And if they’re going to quote Ephesians 4:17, then they’re quite bigoted. Honestly, you’re wasting your time with these blind and deaf fundies.

  7. I tried to comment on “Jesus is a Mythical Character” but there was no “add comment” or any comment specifications. One different post said “comments closed”???

    AS my fave to read on lol & yes it’s the annoying Rapture that is said to come lol just joking.

    I have a question on the Marks feeding stories with Bread & fish. Since Mark is the earliest of the Gospels I review the comparisons.

    “And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all. And they did all eat, and were filled. And they took up twelve baskets full of the fragments, and of the fishes. And they that did eat of the loaves were about five thousand men.”

    “And he commanded the people to sit down on the ground: and he took the seven loaves, and gave thanks, and brake, and gave to his disciples to set before them; and they did set them before the people. And they had a few small fishes: and he blessed, and commanded to set them also before them. So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets. And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away.”

    {Mark 6.41,44:}  {Mark 8.6,9}

    Are they 2 separate accounts of the same story (1 event) or are they entirely 2 different events? Ken Humphrey has it as saying: “which (if either!) is correct, for example, in the fishy bread story?”

    Also With the Jesus or Shamash pic image under the “Jesus is a Mythical figure” post, I looked at the verse (Mal 4:2) Can you give a little detail break down of that verse or even all of Malachi 4 since it’s not long & merely a paragraph or so? I see your point in relation of Jesus to Shamash but just wanted further clarification because obviously the study Bible I’ve had has cliff/side notes saying “Sun of righteousness” is for the coming Messiah Jesus.

    Then it states that Elijah was not needed to come back as In Matthew Jesus states John The Baptist fulfilled that place for Jesus entrance. Which I thought was funny because it’s NT telling what OT meant even if it didn’t mean that & seemed kind of like a reincarnation statement.

  8. With regards to the sun of righteousness in Malachi 4:2, obviously you cannot find it because both of our Bibles are English. However, Strong’s Concordance (H8122), שמש/shemesh is the Hebrew word for sun. Oddly enough, in pre-Christian Levant they worship a sun god named “Shamash”. (see Jesus as the Sun throughout history)

    And for the people who keeps denying the pagan parallels, just quote verbatim Justin Martyr’s apology and it will cause them shock and denial.

    “And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.”

    1. Thanks Jon. Always good to hear from you. I heard the Justin quote before but I’m going to use it now

    2. You may be right, I’m wasting my time but I’m trying to get knowledgeable enough to make a change. I don’t believe what they say. I post the truth & they question me. I want to confidently answer them. Plus I want to try & help them. That’s why I asked Murdock for her motive since Christians love to know everyone’s back ground so they can be more biased in their preconceived beliefs. They want to know what’s the point in debunking Christianity & I gave a few several obvious reasons but I can’t speak for all. They did have me in circles a few times but I can now say with confidence that it’s a myth in which of course they don’t like. I even try to relate saying I wish there was truth to being saved because it’s a peace of mind, comfort for death aside from scare tactics like hell & the madness in scripture.

    3. Oh & yes I agree with where does it say that in scripture for a Birth date but I suppose they are trying to decipher the date by Passover implications & festivals, Lord’s supper feast & something about grazing the sheep to say spring time. It gets redundant & ridiculous that no one knows his actual birthdate & where the tomb is/was. There was an veneration to the empty tomb until Eusebius & Constantine fabricated it with lies. There’s 2 places to visit where the supposed tomb was & funny how later many others were found too. Then there’s the calvary/Golgotha nonsense. Lol

      Anyway I think maybe this covers the assumptions of an actual Birthdate:

      http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Jesus

      Read it all, few areas I know you will laugh at.

      1. “There wasn’t any Veneration for hundreds of years for the empty tomb” was what I meant. Phone always trying to auto correct me but makes more typos than a Christian apologist,typists with broken fingers & watching the boo tube while typing & thinking which Gospel to go with for a come back.

    4. I’m reading the page 60 Sun Gods now.

      I found this there on Google. A reader who says:

      “What I would like to ask the author is if she intends to answer the request of the website kingdavid8.com, asking for her original source materials (according to the author of this website, Acharya S has not responded). If original source materials can’t be provided, then her claims aren’t much more than speculation or leaps to conclusion. Also, I’m wondering if she has submitted her work for a peer-review, and if so, when/where? And if not, why not?”

      1. Thanks. Of course, I’m well aware of all the dumb crap online from incompetent ne’er-do-wells who lie and spew forth. We have debated the sociopathic “King David” many times, so this comment is just more of the same mendacious rubbish. Anyone who actually knows my work also knows that I have provided heaps of primary sources backing up my claims, so this ignoramus isn’t an expert on my work, quite obviously.

        There’s no need to be bringing up every sleazy Christian apologist lie on my blog, as we’ve addressed pretty much of them in books, articles and on my forum. Feel free to do a search on this very website, http://FreethoughtNation.com or directly on the forums at http://freethoughtnation.com/forums

        Here’s a massive KD8 thread on my forum:

        http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3206

        1. Ok, I’ll check it out. Thanks AS. I am in full agreement with you. Just trying to get my own answers to put forth my efforts on Mythicism truths over exaggerations & fabrications.

          1. Good. The bulk of the exaggerations and fabrications have been on the part of Bible-thumpers.

        2. I was debating about the Gospel accounts events & how could so much happen within 40 days etc & the response was:

          “I have no problems with the chronology.

          1). Joseph and Mary live in Nazareth.

          2). They go to Joseph’s ancestoral home to be counted in the census. They might in fact plan to stay there to avoid the scorn of Mary as an unwed mother in Nazareth.

          3). Jesus is born and the shepherds come.

          4). Jesus at 40 days goes to Jerusalem.

          5). Magi come and locate Jesus. There is no time parameters. It appears they take as many as two years, because Herod has all the kids 2 and under killed. He likely took the date they saw the star and killed every kid born then or after. Mary and Joseph when the magi appear are in a house, not in a stable. They likely had moved into Bethlehem as Jesus home for his infant years.

          6). Mary and Joseph flee to Egypt.

          7). Herod dies.

          8). They return to Nazareth. Why back to Nazareth now after time in Bethlehem? After Herod’s death Galilee has a more stable Herodian leader. There has been some years since Mary’s scandalous pregnancy.

          All the data fits fine. Matthew includes the Herod and Egypt bits because he cares about making Jesus echo Moses. Luke cares about Jerusalem because it is part of his theological program, making Jerusalem more central to his version than Matthew or Mark. He also highlights shepherds due to his interest in social class and has Anna and Simeon due to his attention on gender. All the events could easily have happened, they just have different reasons they include different parts. There are no contradictions.”

          I said- Woman can’t pass on seed but the male does & her baby can be implied as seed but “Seed” in Greek is “Sperma”. The Woman’s egg was discovered in 1827. Ancient times believed the woman’s womb was the soil in which the seed was planted. Just as there were barren soil that could not produce crops, also Barren Wombs could not produce Children. We went off topic of the 3 Magi & the star in the east but Matthew 2:1 says Jesus was born during the reign of Herod The Great. Luke 2:2 says Jesus was born during the 1st census in Israel while Quirinius was Governor of Syria. Problem is Herod died March 4 BC & The census took place in 6&7 AD about 10 years after Herod’s death. Quirinius did not become Governor of Syria until after Herod’s death.

          Jesus was born where? Matthew &Luke say Bethlehem while Matthew quotes Micah 5:2 but the comparison of Matthew 2:6 is a small misquote so who cares I guess. Luke has Mary & Joseph traveling from their home in Nazareth in Galilee to Bethlehem in Judea for the birth, Luke 2:4. But Matthew says that it was only after the birth of Jesus that Mary & Joseph lived in Nazareth & they were afraid to return to Judea (Matthew 2:21-23) then Luke says that everyone had to go to the city of their birth to register for the censuses. I thought the purpose of the Roman Census was for taxation & being interested in where people lived & worked, Not where they were born? Matthew has Joseph, Mary & Baby Jesys fleeing to Egypt but how did 40 days of the purification period after Jesus was born & his parents bringing him to the temple making the sacrifice & return to Nazareth in Luke cover All the events of Slaughter of innocents of Herod’s command & flight to Egypt then back in 40 days? Matthew has Magi visit Jesus in Bethlehem before the slaughter of innocents?

          Also the person posted this link to the Roman Census

          On the census issue. http://www.comereason.org/roman-census.asp

    5. I read the page 60, which was interesting even though I got that from her other materials but I want to read it as a whole.

      I looked up Ephesians 4:17 & not sure what that could prove for Christians? “So I tell you this & insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.”

      Other Than Become A New you as It Basically Insinuates Then Does State To “Put Off Your Old self”. I read around it, before & after & the cliff note, commentaries say nothing effusive to a prolific claim on their end for a Birthdate or celebration.

      Not sure what quoting that does for them in an argument other than the norm they already use & it would just be Paul’s opinion anyway since he never met Jesus & to my knowledge neither of the disciples either. Clearly insertions were made within Acts etc…

  9. AS, Jon- What Do You Think On This:

    “The importance of the symbolism is expressed by occultist Manly Palmer Hall in his book The Secret Teachings of All Ages:

    In the World of Assiah are to be found the demons and tempters. These are likewise reflections of the ten great globes of Atziluth, but because of the distortion of the images resulting from the base substances of the World of Assiah upon which they are reflected, they become evil creatures, called shells by Qabbalists. There are ten hierarchies of these demons to correlate with the ten hierarchies of good spirits composing the Yetziratic World. There are also ten Archdemons, corresponding to the ten Archangels of Briah. The black magicians use these inverted spirits in their efforts to attain their nefarious ends, but in time the demon destroys those who bind themselves to it. The ten orders of demons and the ten Archdemons of the World of Assiah are as follows:

    D1, the evil Crown; the hierarchy is called Thaumiel, the doubles of God, the Two-head; the Archdemons are Satan and Moloch.

     

     

     

    Additional ideas behind the horns of Moloch would be the astrological basis of the various ages we’ve gone through. The Age of Taurus; the bull, is one in which the worship of Moloch is based and took place around 4000-2000 BC. This corresponds to what you can read in the Bible with Moses talking about the worship of the golden calf and the people sacrificing babies to the bull god Moloch in exchange for mercy and prosperity. The next astrological after that was the Age of Aries; the lamb, or ram from about 2000 BC to 1 AD. So we can see two consecutive ages where the symbol of two horns atop the head played an important part of culture and society. The Illuminati roots into the worship of these older polytheistic traditions and you can see it prevalent in tons of entertainment symbolism.”

    The site I found this on is Illuminati watchers & it was talking about the Disney movie Maleficent with occult symbolism.

    1. Ugh! Even if there’s such a thing called “Illuminati”, does it even matter? People can associate anything to weird symbols and throw vile and libelous epithets. I have not read any Manly Palmer Hall’s book but it seems to me its more fringe cultish shenanigans that induces fear to people just like when Harold Camping said that the world is going to end in 2011 (correct me if I’m wrong but I’m not gonna comment on his book). Satan, devil, and all that darkness shebang are myths that predate antiquity. That is just a mere anthropomorphization of darkness/night as evil. Example, Dr. E.A. Wallis Budge translated the Papyrus of Nu which states,

      “I am the Serpent Sata whose years are many. I die and I am born again each day. I am the serpent Sata which dwelleth in the unttermost parts of the Earth. I die, and I am born again, and I can renew myself, and I grow young each day.” – page 74, Christ In Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection

      Sata is the representation of the dark or night whereas his archnemesis is Ra-Horakhty, the syncretism of Ra and Horus is the rising sun. As far as Revelation 17:5, the whore of Babylon is not the Roman Catholic Church nor the United States but rather, a representation of the Babylonian goddess Ishtar/Inana (See “The Meaning of Revelation” in The Christ Conspiracy). The great civil war in heaven as depicted in Isaiah 14:12-14, it is not a fallen angel but rather a mythological representation of the planet Venus appearing as a star during dawn. (see page 251 of Who Was Jesus: Fingerprints of the Christ) Besides, the civil war in heaven is a boring story anyway. I think Captain America: Civil War is much better.

      So for those authors who keep instilling fear to people especially children by talking creepy symbols of the devil or those who brings up end times, they make way more harm than good for one thing, they cloud the consciousness by bringing an “us against them” mentality. The Revelation is not a prophetic work unique to Christianity. It predates pre-Christian mythologies (see page 22, The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ . The gospels and the epistles are not true representations of morality because it is ridden with repugnant deeds, absurdities, and errors which makes it not the true word of God of the cosmos. The gospels and epistles are anonymous and didn’t appear to history till mid to last quarter of the second century.

      “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”-Voltaire (1694-1778)

      1. Thanks again Jon. Yea, I know what you mean with Light & darkness since dawn of time & words being expressed of all that Natural phenomena that isn’t more than anything we hear about because these myths are imaginatively expansions of these concepts. I’ve heard that Voltaire quote before but I didn’t know Much about Sata. How do I prove Satan came from that by the word? I ask because the concept predating I can easily explain but the sounds of words don’t necessarily have to be similar to be in direct correlation of the transitional process of influence, although obviously everything originates from one area, in which Egypt is the earliest known civilization right? I brought up Sat before but someone was saying how do I know for sure it is the same as Satan & users English slang that would be proven my point of why there’s so many definitions to common used words but he said Egyptian dialect is different & you can’t say Sun & Son are from each other even if you reassemble words. Something like that lol. Anyway I saw a very poorly done argument against AS that said all she does is use Cock to explain Rock. Lol I was laughing so hard.

      2. Jon- I posted the Sata serpent of Egypt within The Book Of The Dead & put links as well & someone commented (below). I can only answer parts of it because I’m not sure on the English language question & the link to Sata to Satan & how the languages would prove anything since we’re using English & I don’t know Egyptian or Hebrew.

        “Here’s another translation ” I am the serpent Sa-en-ta, the dweller in the uttermost parts of the earth. I lie down in death. I am born, I become new, I renew my youth every day.” Ok so we have an arguably weaker translation of the book of the dead saying there is a serpent named Sata. Ok cool. Now what about that exactly means the Hebrew Satan (The accuser or adversary) is the same thing or was even influenced by the Egyptian book of the dead? How is that conclusion drawn exactly? The English translation of ancient languages sounding similar? And then Isaiah, who is arguably one of the strongest Jewish prophets is actually taking from pagan religions which he himself is simultaneously denouncing? Why? What is the motive and what is the source that helps draw this conclusion?”

  10. http://illuminatiwatcher.com/illuminati-occult-symbolism-in-maleficent-disneys-sleeping-beauty-tale/

    That’s the link. Much of it is laughable but I found it interesting it speaks of astrotheological aspects.

    “The innocence of the Unicorn is signified, not only by its clean, white coat, but by its single, uncloven, horn. One horn suggests unity,  it  cannot be entered, it wards off intrusion. Dual horns, in this context, suggest that that which was whole is now split. The possessor of two horns lives in the world of opposites, of two sexes, and therefore is concerned with procreation. That which is split then seeks reunion through the birth of the third, mirror image of itself, and so the regenerative cycle goes on.

    That is why the Unicorn can only be tamed by a virgin, for the Virgin is undefiled, unitary, and protected. The Men of the World cannot open the Unicorn’s body unless he lies in the lap of the Virgin who comes forward voluntarily with an aura of sacrifice. The symbolism of the single fertilizing horn in a Virgin’s lap is clear. In the case of the Unicorn, there is a divine fertilization. Only when the Soul, (the Virgin) is torn away from her union with the Divine, can she be joined with man. Therefore the men, who seek to re-discover lost innocence, and because they are of the World, cannot value purity as inner possession only, and kill the Virgin’s Divine connection so she will be available for them in the world of duality.

    This interpretation suggests that there is an alternate allegory to that of the passion of Christ possible here, something to do with the Virgin as World Soul in union with the Divine, and the Unicorn as the mystic seeking return to the source.It is also a Creation myth that shows the Fall into duality without which earthly life would not be possible.”

  11. http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/02/22/idol-worship-ancient-egypt-to-modern-day/

    It’s sites like this but millions of them that are saying Egyptian influence is even in Hollywood & they link it to so much that it has to be partially fabricated & these exaggerations are reinforcing Dogmatic religious beliefs since they think there’s a big evil conspiracy. All you have to do is type illuminati industry exposed or anything to that effect & get some truths but I’m not sure what symbolical celebrity performances have to do with scripture. I can see people doing a trend & liking the Egyptian ways & occultism to be Cool but how does this prove scripture to be real? Lol it’s like all these fanatics who claim war proves prophecies when I have yet to see anything proven. War is an easy predicament & observation since history seems to repeat itself with humanities prideful ways of establishing power & war just proves madness. You even now got this silly video going viral about a flying dark horse & people buy into this?

    http://youtu.be/RvI3UPwGUGA

    https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&ei=VcSEVIy5FoH4yQTg_4GwBw&q=maleficent+esoteric+meaning&oq=maleficient+eso&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.0i13l2.1832.10432.0.13470.13.11.2.1.1.0.1806.6775.2-4j3j7-1j2.10.0.msedr…0…1c.1.58.mobile-gws-hp..2.11.6193.3.BZDZ9WSA3Ag#q=youtube+black+flying+horse

  12. Lol Richard Dawkins at the end of it

    http://youtu.be/I96-Wvc5ays

  13. AS, Jon, I know one of you can tackle this because This Site tries using Egyptian mystery symbolism as Satanic.

    This is the stuff Christians are scaring people with to convert under the influence of what looks like occultist in a rise to take them out & corrupt the world.

    http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/symbols_prove.htm

  14. I posted about the star in the east with the wise men of your Truthbeknown.com & this was commented:

    “Egyptian theology is totally different than Christian theology. If they have similar imagery its just a coincidence. Its like comparing a Mustang and a minivan because they are both red. But if you guys can read this bologna and it sounds good, not sure I can help.
    You realize the Bible never gives us “three” wise men. The number is never specified. This entire connection is based on later traditions that aren’t even in the text!”

  15. Sorry I bombarded your page but what’s your thoughts on this link as well as the person who commented? Bare in mind I never said Nazareth didn’t exist but that it was after 70 AD or so.

    “At this point you have gone to totally spurious, ridiculous sources. I don’t know what conspiracy theorist site this crap comes from, but its just hogwash. There is ZERO real scholarly debate about the inhabitation of either Nazareth or Bethlehem.

    The most significant argument is this. If Nazareth did not exist, when the Gospels were written sometime between 60-80 CE, NO ONE WOULD HAVE READ OR BELIEVED THEM? How do explain thousands of Galileean and Judean Christians that wrote and believed this stuff? Were they too stupid to realize that those towns didn’t exist? Furthermore, why would Biblical authors who had been to these places made up fictional places?
    My sources are not Christian. This is something people don’t understand. Biblical scholarship is filled, in fact dominated, by non-believing people. Atheists are some of the most prevelant scholars in the Biblicial Studies. I have shelves full of high quality research written by people with no faith in Christ. What you are presenting is not that. In fact, most of it is supplied by heavily anti-Christian sources. Athesits scholars, real scholars, don’t doubt Nazareth and Bethlehem as real inhabited cities in Jesus days, because they acutally understand archaeology and the danger of arguing silence. You are going to websites and sources that are anti-Christian. The bias is on your side, not mine. You quote poorly researched non-scholarly info from atheistic or pantheistic extremists, in order to try to disprove data from atheistic, Jewish, and Christians scholars.
    Aaron Bridges, the “revision” of Scripture is really a poor thing to lean on. Scripture doesn’t move much. A century ago we only had like 900AD copies of the Old Testament. Doubters constantly said, “We can’t trust the OT. It was obviously messed with over the centuries.” Then we discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls, and copies that were 1,000 years older than our previous oldest copies. Guess what we found out? They hadn’t changed! There were some spelling differences, but the vast majority of the text, and all the major theological points, were unchanged. Don’t allow people to see you the lie that the books of the Bible were totally fudged over the ages, particularly when we have fragments and quotations coming as much as a few decades after the original copies.”

    1. On that Illuminati and symbols thing, see above comment. Those solar symbols are NOT satanic but a representation of the ancients adoration to the sun as the savior. Even if it such symbols are used in Satanism, it’s in vain because Satan is also a myth.

      On Christianity being a 100% rip off from Egyptian tales, that’s erroneous. Jesus Christ is a compilation of mythical god men prior to the common era that is stitched together. There is NO historical core no matter how you peel the onion. It is multiple mythologies combine to one. One should understand that the pagan parallels to Christianity is not as linear as the gospel tales. The gospel writers aren’t so dumb to do so as they will be accused of plagiarism. The hellenized Egyptian god Serapis was not enough to unite the empire so they made a new sun god that encompasses majority of the cultures and it worked, we have Jesus of Nazareth.

      On gospel dates and Nazareth existence:
      Despite the tortured attempts to place the gospels in the 1st century by apologists, the canonical gospels didn’t appear to the historical record until the last quarter of the second century. The gospels are written by anonymous authors and the authorship according to the evangelists was first told by Iraneus during year 175-180 CE. The gospels are not biographies of the jewish messiah because the earliest manuscripts of the gospels are ridden in errors, it is filled with anachronisms and contradictions despite textual harmonization. There is no secular records of his life and teachings. The gospels we have are in Greek, not in Hebrew or Aramaic. Majority of the gospel writers are diasporic Jews who are cognizant of Greek and lived in Alexandria, Egypt who have used the Greek OT as blueprint for the NT (yes Jews live in Egypt, example of which is Philo of Alexandria). We don’t even have records of these apostles’ life and teachings. Now, with the Nazareth thing, the word “Nazareth” is never mentioned in the Old Testament which should make you wonder why, not even Josephus mentions a town named Nazareth. In Jewish records, the only time Nazareth appeared is not later than 9th century CE. The town of Bethlehem is a reference to the constellation virgo which means house of bread. It didn’t appear in history until somewhere 7 to 4 BCE. (See WWJ, ZG Sourcebook page 58, and Was there a historical ‘Jesus of Nazareth?’)

  16. Thanks, very informative. I’ve heard different dates on the actual “Nazareth”? I’ve heard after 70 CE? I knew it didn’t/doesn’t mention it in the OT & I heard it was a pile of rocks before actually made into something. I heard it was destroyed then rebuilt but never was a Nazareth in Jesus’s alleged days. Just look at these. Ken Humphreys as well. View the top 3. https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&ei=QWmLVMSPI47HsQSA44C4DA&q=was+there+a+nazareth&oq=was+there+a+naza&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.0j0i22i30l4.2616.12580.0.17761.18.17.1.2.2.0.239.2490.0j15j1.16.0.msedr…0…1c.1.60.mobile-gws-hp..2.16.2045.3.10MjGyXn3nA

    I know some are Christian sites who say there was by archaeological findings, supposedly. So why is this? Even if found a place it doesn’t prove anything else. Anyway there’s much debate on it still & supposedly most scholars agree that there was a Nazareth But I’m not Sure Where They Are Getting This Info from other than huffing posts etc… http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2013/06/nazareth-in-the-first-century.html

    Do you mean why wasn’t it in The Jewish records before the 9th century CE ?

    everything else you Said is clear to me.

    Are you the one who runs the Facebook page called “Truth about Religion & Myth” ? Because the photos used are similar to here & the background wall is Stellar House books. If so, cool but was just curious. I view the page here & there.

    1. Interesting – “The negative references to Nazareth in the Gospel of John suggest that ancient Jews did not connect the town’s name to prophecy.”

      http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth

  17. I posted Justin Martyr quotes & this was a comment in which I replied back.

    “As to the website you sent me, those quotes from justin maryter are all real but they are taken completely out of any context at all. Half of what he actually is expressing is the differences between Christians and pagans. When he says if we believe the same things why are we persecuted and hated? That’s a big deal. I would try and avoid websites like this one. It’s more conspiracy theory stuff than actual educational scholarship.”

    Me- Yea I’ve seen what u said from apologist as far as Justin Martyr goes But He was An Example & Is Lesser of the latter. That’s one way to view his journals but he says a lot like Mithraism being it was before Christianity because devils knew Christianity would be coming. He was trying to keep a neutrality but was not a good idea to compare it so much because there’s parts where he expresses the differences but then says it’s basically the same. They propose nothing different. He was saying that our god is ours, yours is yours but we have all the same common grounds for our beliefs so why persecute? There’s more than just his words. The Catholic Encyclopedia has a lot.

    1. The “out of context” shrieking is fallacious. Justin Martyr is quite clearly comparing – and contrasting – the Christian tale with pre-Christian gods in order to make his own cult look better. These apologists will squirm until the end of time with all kinds of fallacies. It makes them feel better.

  18. New person with the one above & now this.

    “”In fact, most scholars have come to doubt whether, properly speaking, there really were any myths of dying and rising gods at all! In the Osiris myth, one of the best known symbolic seasonal myths, Osiris does not really come back to life but simply continues to exist in the nether realm of the departed. In a recent review of the evidence, T. N. D. Mettinger reports: “From the 1930s. . . a consensus has developed to the effect that the ‘dying and rising gods’ died but did not return or rise to live again. . . Those who still think differently are looked upon as residual members of an almost extinct species” (Tryggve N. D. Mettinger, The Riddle of Resurrection: “Dying and Rising Gods” in the Ancient Near East [Stockholm, Sweden: Almquist & Wiksell International, 2001], pp. 4, 7).

    Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/jesus-and-pagan-mythology#ixzz3M0be28zb

    1. Mettinger’s work actually supports the mythicist position, so claims to the contrary are simply WRONG. I used Mettinger’s work in Christ in Egypt, so you can take a look at how it supports mythicism.

      Please feel free to search our forums for discussions of all these false apologies and much more. You will find that we have already addressed much of what you are bringing up here, including Mettinger and dying/rising gods. In fact, that’s really the place for you to be posting these questions and comments, so feel free to join. If you have difficulty, just let me know, and I’ll contact my mod.

      1. Thanks AS. Your not that mean. Lol. I understand you dealt with this time & time again. Is it easy to join? Also what are the comments about here? New questions? I downloaded you Ebook ‘was there a Historical Jesus of Nazareth?’

  19. This is part of Justin Martyr & Mithraism talk. Was asking me which exact Mithraism.

    “There was a Mithras in Babylonian religions and then one in Rome. The roman Mithras had very little in common with Babylon. Justin’s ideas here are to explain to the romans that christians were not atheists, so comparing rituals and spirituality. However the Mithraism practiced by the Romans came two centuries after christianity. So the Mithras justin is speaking to here is one thT came up after Christianity even though there was a Babylonian version. Saying things like, well there’s community meals in Mithraism and christianity means Christianity copies Mithra therefore Christianity is false, is very intellectually irresponsible. It’s like saying, hey Islam has prayer and so does Christianity I guess Christianity copied Islam. The ‘similarities’ between the two are just not significant enough to make any real sense with scholars. Conspiracy theorist? Yes. But real scholarship? No. I’m curious what are the actual first hand references and work on the jesus myths? Do you know? Any peer reviewed scholars?”

    1. This person is ignorant, as we already knew. The Mithra of “Rome” is DERIVED from the older Indo-Perso-Babylonian Mithra and has a GREAT DEAL in common with his older edition. Mithraism flourished in the very area where Paul was raised, Tarsus, and it was NOT “Roman” Mithraism.

      For more on Mithraism, including what the Church fathers said about it, see: http://truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm and here: http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithraism.html

      As they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and this shallowly educated individual proves that point.

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