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 Post subject: Justin the Martyr
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:27 am 
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Long time member here, though rarely seen.

I need some verification regarding Justin the Martyr. I've read that he does not quote the canonical gospels, yet find evidence to the contrary.

I would like to believe that he only quotes a few lines. Acharya lists many authors that state this, and then claim that he doesn't actually quote the NT when evidence shows otherwise. Can someone clear this up for me? thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:08 am 
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Christian apologists like to claim: "Justin Martyr quotes the Gospels."

No, the memoirs are not the same as the canonical gospels, and the mention of & quotation from Justin Martyr's book doesn't serve as evidence of the existence of the gospels as he never mentions them by name nor shows any awareness of them"

"Justin's book was different from our Gospels"
- Keeler 21-22

"Justin's version of the gospel tale & church history contradicts the NT"
- Cassles 249

- "Suns of God" 419-20

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:11 pm 
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Thanks for the response Freethinka. I've read all of those before and have made those arguments. but it appears that he does indeed allude to the gospels in the face of those facts. Do you have something I haven't seen before? Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:28 pm 
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Show me the argument they're trying to make. Re-read pages 419-420 - Justin does not allude to The Gospels upon closer inspection.

Quote:
"As proof of the existence of the gospels prior to the end of the second century, it is claimed that Church father Justin included 268 "quotations of the New Testament" in his writings, an extraordinary figure from a chart in Josh McDowell's book New Evidence that Demands a Verdict. However, the various assertions regarding "quotes" from biblical texts in early Christian writings rank as highly misleading. In the first place, there appears nothing prior to Justin Martyr (c. 150 AD/CE) that we can point to as real evidence of the existence of the canonical gospels, which is why Justin Martyr heads the chart in McDowell's book. In fact, virtually all of the numerous quotes purportedly from the New Testament listed in the Catholic Encyclopedia, for example, as found in earlier Christian writings constitute sayings that may have been transmitted orally or in other source texts such as the Aramaic Gospel of Matthew or Q. Next, upon close inspection, the material from Justin Martyr—such as the "Memoirs of the Apostles"—does not correspond well enough to that found in the canonical gospels and is likely from another common source text or texts. Indeed, renowned biblical scholar Tischendorf only managed to find two pertinent quotations in Justin Martyr's works that could possibly come from the gospel of Matthew, for example.3 Again, these miniscule passages could very well come from a shared source text."

- Who Was Jesus? 67-68

Quote:
The "Historical" Jesus?

"A number of the passages in Justin that purportedly correspond to New Testament scriptures come from a text called "Memoirs of the Apostles," which, Cassels shows, is a book by that title, not a reference to several "memoirs" or apostolic gospels. The "Memoirs," in other words," constitutes a single text like the "Acts of the Apostles." Upon examination, the quotes Justin uses from the Memoirs "differ more or less widely" from parallel scriptures in the synoptics, Matthew, Mark and Luke . As confirmed by Tischendorf, only a couple of short exceptions are sufficiently similar to warrant comparison with the synoptic gospels. These various passages from the Memoirs or "Memorabilia" are repeated often enough that it is clear Justin is quoting them verbatim, rather than paraphrasing; yet, they are not identical to gospel scriptures, differing enough that they could not have come from those books. "There is almost invariably some difference," says Keeler "either in sense or construction, showing that Justin 's book was different from our Gospels." Also, several of the Memoirs scriptures do not appear in any form in the canonical gospels. Moreover, Justin 's version of the gospel tale and the Church history in its details is different from and contradictory to that found in the New Testament..."

SNIP

"...In actuality, the word "Gospels" appears only once in all of Justin 's extant works, found in The First Apology (ch. LXVI), where the phrase occurs "which are called Gospels." This phrase is evidently an interpolation, of which, it must be recalled, there were many in the works of not only Justin Martyr but also practically every ancient author. The phrase is extraneous and gratuitous to the subject matter of the rest of the paragraph. To repeat, it is also the only instance the term "Gospels" is found in Justin 's entire works. Martyr does use the word "Gospel" thrice in his Dialogue, but the term there refers not to the Memoirs or other texts but to the Gospel, i.e. the "Good News" of Jesus Christ. He also refers to the Gospel in one of the fragments of his lost work on the Resurrection, but these few are the only times the word appears in Justin's known writings."

"Concerning the early use of the word "Gospel," Ellegard evinces that it referred to the "florilegia, anthologies of Biblical passages, which were evidently popular reading among the Saints," i.e., the Jewish Messianic Hagioi who made up the elders of the pre-Christian churches of God found scattered throughout the empire. The Hagioi, Johnson avers, are tangential to the Hosioi, who likewise morphed into Christians...."

http://www.truthbeknown.com/historicaljc.htm

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:52 pm 
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Again, thanks for the info Freethinka. I believe I conveyed my point to the person I was arguing with. He's an ordained Minister I believe and aside from being intelligent, he's steadfast in his convictions. I pointed to the gospels as memoirs and the fact that they may have been the inspiration for the gospels, but as such not the gospels. The banter came from the fact that I said jesus never even existed. His arguement was that a man named jesus must have lived 2000 yrs ago, given the laws of probabilty. As this may be true I said it was not the same thing. Sorta the gist of the conversation.... again thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:47 pm 
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"His arguement was that a man named jesus must have lived 2000 yrs ago"

Yes, we know that Josephus mentioned around 20 different Jesus's but none have ever been demonstrated to be THE biblical Jesus. Even Christian apologist Gary Habermas admits that Jesus and Mary were some of the most popular names during that era:

Quote:
"The Names "Joseph" and "Jesus" were very popular in the 1st century. "Jesus" appears in at least 99 tombs and on 22 ossuaries. "Joseph" appears on 45 ossuaries. "Mary" is the most common female name in the ancient Jewish world."

- Dr. Habermas, "Who Was Jesus?" (107)


So nobody argues that there wasn't a Jesus but, the burden of proof is upon them to substantiate THE biblical Jesus separate and apart from all the other ordinary Jesus's.

Throughout "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ" Murdock provides commentary from a wide variety of biblical and New Testament scholars that suggests even they are skeptical of "evidence" for a historical Jesus:

Quote:
"The Gospels are neither histories nor biographies, even within the ancient tolerances for those genres."

- Dr. John Dominic Crossan

- WWJ (24)


Quote:
"Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent upon these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic"

- F.F. Bruce, a founder of the modern evangelical movement

- WWJ page 84


Quote:
"...there are very few sources for knowledge of the historical Jesus beyond the four canonical Gospels. Paul and Josephus offer little more than tidbits. Claims that later apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material supply independent and reliable historical information about Jesus are largely fantasy. In the end, the historian is left with the difficult task of sifting through the Four Gospels for historical tradition."

- John P. Meier, "A Marginal Jew," vol. II, 5.

- Who Was Jesus? page 86

* Dr. Meier is a Catholic University New Testament professor, Catholic priest and monsignor


Quote:
"...Christian scholars over the centuries have admitted that ... "there are parallels between the Mysteries and Christianity"1 and that "the miracle stories of the Gospels do in fact parallel literary forms found in pagan and Jewish miracle stories,"2

..."According to Form Criticism the Gospels are more like folklore and myth than historical fact."3

1. Metzger, HLS, 8.

2. Meier, II, 536.

3. Geisler, CA, 320.

- WWJ (259)


Quote:
Dr. Craig L. Blomberg, "the gospels are in fact anonymous"
- WWJ (60)


Quote:
"But how many serious blunders does a scholar have to make before his reputation is tarnished? If a scientist or even a historian made as many fanciful suggestions in his field that were as devoid of support as those of some of the theologians we have noticed, or if he begged as many crucial questions, his reputation would surely suffer. But sometimes in theology, it appears, the reverse often holds. I am not sure that this speaks well for theology and biblical studies as intellectual disciplines."

- Ronald Nash, WWJ (260-1)


Quote:
"The only definite account of his life and teachings is contained in the four Gospels of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All other historical records of the time are silent about him. The brief mentions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have been generally regarded as not genuine and as Christian interpolations; in Jewish writings there is no report about Jesus that has historical value. Some scholars have even gone so far as to hold that the entire Jesus story is a myth…"

- The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (v.6,83)
- "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ" (WWJ) 84


Quote:
"One would naturally expect that the Lord Jesus Christ would be sufficiently important to receive ample notice in the literature of his time, and that extensive biographical material would be available. He was observed by multitudes of people, and his own followers numbered into the hundreds (1 Cor. 15:6), whose witness was still living in the middle of the first century. As a matter of fact, the amount of information concerning him is comparatively meager. Aside from the four Gospels, and a few scattered allusions in the epistles, contemporary history is almost silent concerning him."

- Merrill C. Tenney, "New Testament Survey," p. 203.

- "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ" (WWJ) 85-86

* Dr. Tenney is a conservative evangelical Christian who was a professor of Theological Studies and the dean of the school of Theology at Wheaton College. Tenney was also one of the original translators of the NASB and NIV editions of the Bible.


I'm sharing this next quote borrowed from the forum section titled "Extrabiblical Texts" under the thread "The Jesus Forgery: Josephus Untangled" because it sums it up quite perfectly
viewtopic.php?p=16003#p16003

Quote:
Jewish scholar Solomon Zeitlin, who wrote the foreword in 1969 to a new edition of Gerald Friedlander's The Jewish Sources of the Sermon on the Mount. On p. xi, Zeitlin remarks:

"...In sum, the evidence for the historical evidence for Jesus is non-existent:

1) There are no proven, legitimate references to the existence of Jesus in any contemporary source outside of the New Testament.

2) The New Testament accounts do not provide a real 'biography' for Jesus. The early writings imply only that he was a divine figure and consistently fail to locate Jesus in any chronological setting; they also fail to cite those sayings attributed to him in the (later) Gospels, even when they are wholly applicable.

3) The existence of Jesus is not necessary to explain the origin or growth of Christianity."

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 Post subject: Re: Justin the Martyr
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:56 pm 
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This seems like a decent thread to post the info regarding Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with the Jew Tryphon."

Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with the Jew Tryphon" around 150 CE with Tryphon essentially declaring that Jesus is a Christian invention as no evidence for Jesus existed even back then:

Quote:
"But Christ if he is come, and is anywhere, is unknown... But you, having got an idle story by the end, do form yourself an imaginary Christ, and for his sake you foolishly and inconsiderately rush headlong into dangers... "

viewtopic.php?p=10179#p10179

Herb Cutner on Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with the Jew Tryphon" starting on page 88

Quote:
Trypho: "But Christ—if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere—is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing."

- Catholic Enc., Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with the Jew Tryphon" Chapter 8
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01281.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Justin the Martyr
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Here is a new film by Scott Burdick, mostly about the "Reason" rally, but he includes a clip from me:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Bm8MLYoeg#t=15m01s

I appear at 15:01 for a few seconds. It's been suggested that people are calling me a "liar" because of Ehrman. Charming - the man libels me and others repeatedly, and the ne'er-do-wells just can't find out the story themselves but rely on calumny and vitriol.

See this comment on the video:

"DM Murdock is a conniving liar. Almost no historians or scholars think her work is credible, some of her statements are wrong and deceiving at best. Other than that this was an awesome movie!"

This person just HAD to zero in on me for mendacious HATE SPEECH - please provide ONE example. Scott Burdick's response was good, but he provides NO specifics of where I "speculate."

PLEASE feel free to address this person, who himself is a LIAR and libeler of my person, probably also a misogynist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Bm8ML ... 2vxtbzlc0k

I can't go in there and get into a flame war, so I rely on my friends and supporters to do it for me. Unfortunately, few people are doing it.

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