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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:14 pm 
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Liberals (and freethinkers) need to stop respecting Islam!! (Sam Harris video)

"Sam Harris nails it in this video. The problem with so many liberals is that they get so tied up in opposing Christianity and oppression in America, that they actually start to defend Islam and oppression in the middle east (which are actually a lot worse). These liberals need to rise above this dichotomy though and oppose both Christianity AND Islam, and western oppression AND middle eastern oppression.

I've made this plea to fellow atheists before, and I'll make it again. You've managed to avoid being suckered in by other types of harmful ideals., So please don't be suckered into political correctness and respecting religions that are actually much worse than Christianity just because you have the misguided notion that foreign cultures are quaint and should be preserved or that backward countries should have the right to govern their countries however they see fit. The truth of the matter is, Islam is a bigger threat to rationality than Christianity is, and countries like Iraq and Iran are far more oppressive than America is. So wake up, atheists, and stop sticking up the bad guys."


"Sam Harris on Tucker" VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBOGQckaF0U

"The End of Liberalism?" -

Head-in-the-Sand Liberals: Western civilization really is at risk from Muslim extremists.
By Sam Harris
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text ... iberalism/

* This comes from a person on myspace named "crocoduck" http://www.myspace.com/crocoduck

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:49 pm 
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Location: Madison, WI
I think Sam Harris is underestimating the brain power of the liberals in this country. There are a great deal of liberals who see islamic terrorists as a great threat, but there are those that also know that trying to weed out and shooting at a small percentage of islamics is not the correct course of action - especially if we can not teach the non-violent muslims that there are other, more acceptable lifestyles that exist in the world.

After all, since religious faith can not be qualified or quantified, its the mainstream, non-violent theists who enable the violent extremists, in any country, by establishing, promoting and maintaining the social dependency on religious faith and all things faithful to religion.

However, as I said, violence is not the way to create massive cultural changes. Killing men only leads to widows and fatherless children who will most likely never understand why their father was a threat to civilized society and other family members who will also be out for their own definition of justice. The only way to do it with violence is to engage in genocide - killing the men so they can't fight, killing the women so they can't teach and killing the children so they can't take up the cause in the next generation. If we want quick, stupid and easy, this is the way to do it. Drop a few nukes in the heavily populated regions, carpet bomb the smaller regions, drive tanks over the small villages.. and then hope the neighboring regions don't use the ensuing chaos and survivors to strengthen their own power structure (kinda like what Iran is doing now).

Meaningful cultural change needs to start out smaller - like it did with slavery. We need to be able to take the middle-easterners who are not violent and not abusive towards women and move them to safer locations. An underground railroad for the freethinkers so to speak. We also need to distribute information out there and not the holy biblical crap that our armies are spewing now. That craps just exchanging one spiritual dependency for another. We need to get it through their thick skulls that engaging social application directly from spiritual conjecture is not acceptable on any level.

The real plan should be the establishment of distribution of accessible information. We have to challenge their faith on every level. The government structure we leave behind is irrelevant because as long as the extremists are armed and it isn't demanded by the will of the people, the people there will never respect a secular democracy and the entire government structure will be reduced to rubble within a couple of months.

As for where to put the refugees... A few islands in the south pacific, perhaps?

But until that plan is enacted (and its not going to be accepted by the neocons, I can tell you that right now), the only realistic plan is a complete and total withdrawal. Because right now, without a real plan of attack, we're just making matters worse over there.

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