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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:47 pm 
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We all know the source cited in CIE proving Isis is a virgin, Botterweck in the Theological Dictionary of the O.T., and that there are three words which can mean virgin- "dd.t, rnn.t, and especially hwn.t".
Botterweck then goes on to cite Calverley's plate 9. Well, I'm looking at that right now, and I'm looking at a few simple Egyptian alphabet charts I found on google images, and just going by those, I can't find any of these words for virgin in this pic.
I assumed "dd.t" would just be two hands and the loaf. Turns out, it is actually the cobra, and then a hand, and then a loaf.

So, inspite of my omniscience, how was I supposed to know that? Since these laymen charts have the cobra listed as "J".

So my question is, what else am I spelling wrong?

How are "rnn.t" and "hwn.t" or "hwn.t wr.t" written?

Or is this passage using another word altogether that Botterweck failed to mention? How can I find "I am the great virgin" here in plate 9?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:20 pm 
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Okay, I THINK I might have found it, but I need 2nd & 3rd opinions, etc.

There is a section here at the bottom left of Plate 9 that is a flax, then a hare & water, and below that, a loaf. According to wikipedia, the hare & water together can also transliterate as "wn" or "un". So altogether, that should form "hwnt", correct?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:46 pm 
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This is another one for Acharya. Are you getting the primary source in order for a new video?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:06 pm 
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^Yep! Gotta pick up the pace since I said I'd start in October, some of my subscribers are bitching at how I haven't uploaded anything yet.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:29 am 
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You can shoot her a PM and alert her about this thread. I don't think she's seen it yet.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:30 pm 
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Are you saying that you have a copy of Calverley's book on Abydos, vol. 1, in front of you?

Here's the original in Botterweck about that plate:

In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I

Here he cites, "Calverley, Abydos, I, Plate 9." As far as I can tell, he's referring to the book by Amice M. Calverley:

The Temple of King Sethos I at Abydos, Volume 1

Botterweck doesn't say whether or not the original word is hwn.t, but from the text around his comment it looks like it could be. By the way, Botterweck is a well-respected scholar whose book was published by a well-respected Christian publisher, just so you know.

Did you do a search for these hieroglyphs? I easily found the hieroglyphs for renen-t in Budge's Hieroglyphic Dictionary.

This book, Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, by the same publisher as Botterweck also says:

Quote:
In Egypt the epithets 'dd.t, rnn.t and hwn.t, 'girl; young woman; virgin', are applied to many goddesses--e.g.->Hathor and ->Isis--who had not yet had sexual intercourse...

I can't easily find the hieroglyphs for hwn.t, unfortunately. You may want ask an Egyptologist but you may have to go through a few to find one who is knowledgeable on this specific issue.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Ah, thanks for the link to Budge.

Yeah, I do have a copy of the book here, via interlibrary loan with Emory University in Atlanta, the only place in the tristate area that had it.

I sent Acharya a PM earlier today about this thread and the other one, just waiting for her reply. I've been looking through two other books by Budge- First Steps in Egyptian Hieroglyphs, and The Gods of the Egyptians, and both have been helpful, and I really think this passage I'm looking at might be it. It is preceded above by a pot and basket, which Budge says is a form of "anuk", one of the words for "I am". And then the passage ends that column, but the beginning of the very next column is the bird and lips which Budge translates as "great"("ur").
So if I am reading this right, it goes "I am virgin(hwnt) great". And elsewhere in Budge's books I've seen "great" follow the noun it describes instead of preceding it, i.e., a passage where Ra says "I am the god great".

So I'm keeping my fingers crossed. The passage is next to a large picture of a kneeling woman wearing Isis's trademark throne shaped crown, and holding a tray of ankhs. If it is Isis, then it all fits together perfectly.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:40 pm 
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Can you scan the relevant page(s) from Calverley's book and post it here? Would love to have a pic of plate 9 and Calverley's commentary on it.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:54 pm 
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Acharya replied. Seems you took the words right out of her mouth. So it looks like we may have hit a plateau for now. I'll have to email some more folks and get their comments on it. Yeah, I'll see what I can do about scanning it. I'll need to anyway to put it in a video. But there's no commentary, it's all just pictures. Calverley is just the photographer.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:22 pm 
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BINGO! Thank you again for the link to Budge's dictionary Free! For it indeed confirms on p.471 that the flax-hare-water-loaf combination is indeed one of the ways to write "hwn.t"(he had it as "hun-t", but he made it clear that it is the same word at the end when he says "girl, maiden").
And it confirms the other two words as well.

And my youtube friend Chelevsara just PM'd me saying all his resources confirm this as well.

So it seems the passage does go "anuk hwn.t ur"/"I am virgin great".

Now to find a scanner. I'll PM you with the links to the scans after I upload them.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:50 pm 
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Well done! 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:00 pm 
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Good job indeed. I look forward to seeing how you're going to work the primary source material into the next video series.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:32 pm 
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I just wanted to re-post some images GA had posted elsewhere in the forum:

Pyramid Texts: "Great Virgin"

Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, Volume 2, pg.338-339:

"The Pyramid Texts speak of "the great virgin" (Hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a..."

* Pyramid Texts are 4,400 years old

"The Egyptian goddess who was equally 'the Great Virgin' (hwnt) and 'Mother of the God' was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus]."
- Dr. Witt, an Egyptologist, Christ in Egypt, 120

Image

Image

Plate 9 "In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: "I am the great virgin"

- Christ in Egypt, page 152

from this post

Image

Image

Image

The glyph translations were taken from Budge's dictionary.

GA's original post

Maiden, Damsel, Pure, Chaste = synonyms for VIRGIN

Image

Image

GA: "Maiden in Faulkner's Pyramid Texts DOES necessarily mean virgin, as this maiden cannot copulate and only got pregnant through non-sexual supernatural means."

From GA's original post

Virgin - What does it mean? Hebrew definition and scriptures

ISIS IS A VIRGIN MOTHER!!!

Neith, Virgin Mother of the World

For what it's worth, here are some images for Isis-Meri

Image

Image

Image

Image

From here and here.

Other images here.

Below is a video clip of modern Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov admitting parallels between Osiris &/or Horus with Jesus. And, at 5:30 you'll see a stone carving of Isis as she hovers over Osiris in the form of a bird to receive the divine seed (notice there's no 'member') of Osiris. Mojsov then says, "It's a miraculous birth of the savior child."

Image
'Osiris...begetting a son by Isis, who hovers over him in the form of a hawk.'
(Budge, On the Future Life: Egyptian Religion, 80)



Quote:
"...Horus was not the only sun-god recognised by the Egyptians. His own father Osiris, the Savior (of whom Horus was a re-incarnation), was born—also at the winter solstice—of an immaculate virgin, the goddess Neith, who, like Isis, the mother of Horus, was known by the titles of Mother of God, Immaculate Virgin, Queen of Heaven, Star of the Sea, The Morning Star, The Intercessor."

- William Williamson, The Great Law: A Study of Religious Origins, 26

Quote:
"The miraculous birth of Jesus could be viewed as analogous to that of Horus, whom Isis conceived posthumously from Osiris, and Mary was closely connected with Isis by many other shared characteristics."

- Dr. Erik Hornung, The Secret Lore of Egypt, 75

Quote:
"The Egyptian goddess who was equally ‘the Great Virgin’ (hwnt) and ‘Mother of the God’ was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus]."

- Dr. R.E. Witt, Isis in the Ancient World, 273

Quote:
"...the resemblances between Isis and the Virgin Mary are far too close and numerous to be accidental. There can, in fact, be no question that the Isiac cult was a profound influence on other religions, not least Christianity ... [Isis] was the sacred embodiment of motherhood, yet was known as the Great Virgin, an apparent contradiction that will be familiar to Christians."

- Dr. James Curl, The Egyptian Revival, 12-13

- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, page 120

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:10 am 
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After much search, I found a French website that has pictures of all the walls of the Temple of Seti I at Abydos, Osiris chapel, west wall door. Click on the first 'd' from the left, you'll find the picture of Isis with the accompanying hieroglyphs to the right declaring herself the great virgin.

http://www.abydossethy.net/templesethy/septchapelles/osiris/murOuest/porteOuest.html

Image

Image

3.ink mw.t nt @r, ink sn nTr, ink nHmy.t, ink Hwn.t
4.wr.t, ii.n=i it=i sDm iw irf aHA n m

3.je suis la mère d'Horus, je suis la sœur du dieu, je suis celle qui secours,je suis celle qui rajeunit,
4.la Grande qui est venue, Ô mon père qui écoute, je combat dans

Notice how the French translated it referring to Isis, ”je suis celle qui rajeunit,”, in English “I'm the one that rejuvenates” in other words, I'm a damsel again, an eternal damsel, or in today's terms, an ETERNAL VIRGIN. Next sentence “la Grande qui est venue”, in English “The Great (feminine form in French) that has arrived”. The two sentences are next to each other making it I'M THE GREAT VIRGIN. It did help that French is my first language.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Excellent find!


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