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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:20 am 
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At the Jesus Mysteries group, Earl Doherty recently made the following comments in a thread on the Cosmological Christ

"Acharya has that aspect of things sewn up!"

Earl Doherty wrote:
Jake and Robert,

I have no objection to postulating a 'prehistoric' (i.e., prior to our earliest horizon on Christianity) phase to the heavenly Christ cult in which observations of the heavens helped shaped the Christ myth. I think that by the time we reach the thought of Paul (the first century authentic one who may be somewhat obscured), that such an astrological genesis is probably lost sight of as a conscious element of the faith's background.
Any allusions to the stars are pretty much that: allusive.

The one spot I can think of where we can see an astrological dimension to the myth is in Ignatius' Ephesians 19: "How then was he manifested to the world? A star shone in heaven beyond all the stars, and its light was unspeakable, and its newness caused astonishment, and all the other stars, with the sun and moon, gathered in chorus round this star, and it far exceeded them all in its light..."

I rather think that by now (early 2nd c.) such astrological imagery was regarded as simply poetic, though still speaking of a mythical Christ (Ignatius now giving it an historical overlay and understanding), but its roots may well go back to an actual interpretation of the heavens. We might also interpret remarks like 1 Peter 3:18's "in the spirit he was brought to life" and similar references as in 1 Timothy 3:16 as originally based on readings of the spirit world in the heavens.

I don't focus on this dimension since it is rather hard to demonstrate it from the texts themselves, and anyway Acharya has that aspect of things sewn up!

Earl


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:53 am 
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Here is the previous post from me, in which I responded to the opening post from Jake

Quote:
Jake wrote:
> Hi Robert, You have set up an interesting contrast of what a Celestial Christ would be compared to the Christ Myth of Earl Doherty. Did Jesus perform his wonderous deeds in the a) invisible world of myth > b) the primodorial past > c) or in the visible heavens of the night sky?
> Earl, I would like to bounce the question to you. Do you see any direct origin of the Christ myth from observation of the visible heavens? Or, is it possible that Jesus of the epistles is a cosmological principle hidden within the teachings of a mystery cult? I am reminded that (according to 2 Peter) after a night long hill top ritual "until day dawns and the morning star rises." Christ was manifested to the Epoptai in majestic glory "as to a lamp shining in a dark place." Thus, the risen/transfigured Christ was the rising of the planet Venus.
>
> Jake
>

Hi Jake, thanks for these great questions. For a start I can't resist your wonderful malapropism "primodorial" to which the obvious answer must be "In the beginning, God said let there be smell." I don't want to make much ado about nothing, although Dogberry did say in that play that comparisons are odorous." :)

Jokes aside, my view is that Earl's discussion in JNGNM of the descent of Christ through the lower heavens can be made more precise and meaningful if we interpret it against the real optical cosmology that informed the ancient seers. If we interpret all discussion of heaven as originating in observation of the sky, then we find that Christianity contains a powerful and exact match to the symbolism of the real slow movement observable to the ancients in precession, as the basis of the Ages.

Galileo said `but it moves', to indicate the shift from the geocentric vision. We can now say `but it wobbles' as a basis to return cosmology to a study of the universe from a human perspective, looking at how we connect to the universe through myth.

The deeds of Christ are fictional. Deeds are temporal, within time, but Christ the Logos is eternal and unchangingly the same, outside time. This is why Colossians 1:17 says Christ "is before all things, and by him all things consist" and why Hebrews 3:3 says Christ "was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who built the house has more honour than the house."

The eternal Logos does not perform deeds. The Logos is the imagined rational order of gracious love in the universe, conceived as the Christ of Faith, an eternal passive identity connecting us to the ultimate transcendence of God. Transforming the Logos of eternal reason into Jesus of Nazareth, an intentional being who performs deeds, a temporal active man in history, began as a pure work of imagination that started from the cosmic vision. This imagination of the presence of the eternal Christ in history was originally an enlightening allegory, a parable for the cosmic vision of the turning of the Ages. The parable was carnalized through misinterpretation, as the church forgot the original fiction and with malice aforethought usurped the vision of cosmic understanding, replacing the vision with a political desire to use Jesus as an instrument of social control.

What was the vision of understanding conceived as the eternal Logos? In philosophy, Logos was the reason that drove the stars in their courses, the ordinances of heaven that Job 38:32-33 suggests set dominion in the earth and bring forth the zodiac in its season.

Going back to your questions, you might say that Jesus rose from the dead "in the invisible world of myth", but this is just like saying Luke Skywalker fought Darth Vader in the world of myth. Star Wars is pure invention, and so is Jesus. Once we say their deeds occurred in an invisible realm, we are on the slippery slope to reifying the myth.

Considering Christ as `the primordial past', John said `In the beginning was the Word', using Logos to mean the rational order of love, as a structure of nature that remains in place now from the beginning, visible in the orderly movement of the stars. This rational order is manifest in the visible heavens as the structured relations of the observed movement of the cosmos, the divine order whereby everything is connected to form the eternal whole of being, understood as God.

The eternity of the stars as the basis of reason is an idea going back at least to Plato, with his idea in Timaeus of the visible X formed by the galaxy and zodiac as the connecting point of eternity and time. This Platonic X in the sky became the Chi Rho cross, with Jesus Christ symbolising the connection between the eternal Christ (reason) and the temporal Jesus (history).

In the ancient world, Egypt and Babylon had long observed the precession. Indeed, as the great scientist Norman Lockyer observes, Herodotus explains the nightly vigil awaiting the heliacal rising of stars as key to Phoenician and Egyptian religion, so much so that they demolished and rebuilt their temples to retain their stellar alignments over millennial time frames.

In the Roman epoch, precession moved the spring point from the ram to the fishes at the time of Christ. So it seems plausible that for example, this was the basis of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks, using days as analogy to years. This idea that the start of the new age would be the time of the Son of Man is based on a correct structure of time that Daniel and Ezekiel learnt from the Chaldeans, with the correct optical cosmology of 'wheels within wheels' describing the zodiac precessing around the galaxy.

The visible stars of the night sky formed the basis for the ancient concept of heaven in a way that we have often forgotten, with the dominant Christian insistence on alienation between nature and spirit. (Doris Lessing mocks this Christian attitude in her Canopus in Argos series).

An example of the ancient natural concept of heaven is in the work of Proclus, the late Neoplatonist. Commenting on Plato's Timaeus, Proclus expressed the unity of heaven and earth: "if we divide the universe into the celestial and sublunary regions, we must say that the polity is assimilated to the celestial order, for Socrates says that the paradigm of society is established in the heavens." Proclus went on to explain Plato's observation of precession, saying "recapitulation … pertains to physical things … and the circular return to the same form;… Through this cause, the heavens are perpetually moved, and evolving many periods, return to the same life."

Robert Tulip


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:02 pm 
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And my reply to Earl
Quote:
Earl Doherty said "I have no objection to postulating a 'prehistoric' (i.e., prior to our earliest horizon on Christianity) phase to the heavenly Christ cult in which observations of the heavens helped shaped the Christ myth."

Hi Earl, I appreciate your effort to comment on this thread, so I will go through your statements one by one.

Your use of `prehistoric' here could be contested, given that there are so many mentions of the words translated Jesus and Christ in the Old Testament as preparing the archetype of an incarnate Anointed Saviour. Acharya argues that the Egyptian word KRST (anointed) shows very early use of the Christ idea in a cosmic framework. It is clear that Deus Pater goes back etymologically to the Indian Dyaus Pita, and seems equally plausible that the idea of Christ is linked to the Indian Krishna.

Using your thorough analysis of the impossibility of literal origin in a historical Christ as a starting point, my question here seeks to take the question further by asking what is a real possible starting point for the emergence of Christianity. What did the mystery groups around the empire share that made them so receptive to the ideas of Jesus Christ as Alpha and Omega, Incarnate Son of God, the BC/AD Turning Point of Time and Anointed Saviour? An obvious starting point is that they all shared the ability to see the one heaven, which the Sermon on the Mount says brings sunlight and rain equally on the just and unjust, and which is rationally ordered by the observable movement of the stars. Our modern alienated concept of heaven as supernatural afterlife has blinded much modern discussion to this simple natural framework.

My view is that the prophetic tradition was closely linked in to astronomy, especially in Ezekiel and Daniel, but the Deuteronomic tradition contested this natural vision, so the cosmological basis was hidden and suppressed. A good example to illustrate this suppression is Amos 5:26 (just after the famous `let justice roll' line at v24) which blames the captivity of the Jews on worship of Jupiter and Saturn. Amos 5:26-27 says "ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the Lord." Moloch is Jupiter and Chiun is Saturn. Here we find a cosmic prefiguring of the Jesus story, in the periods of the main outer planets. Jupiter (Moloch) has a cycle of 12 years, while Saturn (Chiun) has a cycle of 30 years, indicating how entities with natural periods of twelve and thirty years were central to the Jewish tabernacle. It is highly plausible that these 12 and 30 year natural cycles became central to messianic temporal concepts at the basis of the myth of the life of Jesus.

Focus on these entities with natural cycles of 12 and 30 years is what Amos says is the cause of the captivity in Babylon, illustrating how the ethical prophetic vision with its prefigurement of Christ as the archetypal priest-prophet-king was in conflict with its own roots in natural cosmic observation. This is just an example, like my earlier comment on the 70 weeks in Daniel, of how themes in the Jesus story have a strong reflection in the observational framework that informed ancient geocentric cosmology. There are many more.

This Amos example indicates, by my reading, that the ethical justice movement among the prophets was in conflict with the more astrological tradition of Judaism which Josephus and Philo attest in their mention of the zodiac on the high priest's breastplate. As a result of this socio-religious conflict, all explicit positive mention of stellar ideas was systematically suppressed. The problem for us now in reconstructing the evolution of the Christ myth, in my view, is that this optical cosmic framework was at the causal basis of the messianic concept, so suppressing it created a deep confusion, with the false fantasy taking hold that a supernatural God entity had intervened in the world.

Earl: "by the time we reach the thought of Paul (the first century authentic one who may be somewhat obscured), that such an astrological genesis is probably lost sight of as a conscious element of the faith's background."

But your "probably" here indicates that we don't know how extensively the secret mystery traditions were suppressed. Elaine Pagels suggests in The Gnostic Paul that the mystery movement was more powerful at the time of Paul than you imply. David Ulansey shows how astronomy was at the centre of the mysteries, at least for Mithraism. Debate about the role of cosmology in Gnosis ought to be taken far more seriously, instead of just still getting suppressed by all sides, whether scientific, Christian or pagan, in a tired continuation of old fashioned witch burning attitudes.

As far as I can recall the Epistles do largely avoid cosmology, except for the deutero-mentions of pre-existence such as 1 Colossians. But, we then get the later traditions of the Gospels and the Apocalypse where concealed stellar mentions are very prominent. Notably, the New Testament parabolises the Alpha and Omega as the precessional position of Christ, the loaves and fishes as the shift of the equinoxes into the New Age, the Nativity story with its links to the star worship traditions of Babylon and Egypt, and abundant mentions in the Apocalypse indicating an accurate understanding of the slow sweep of time as marked by the movement of the heavens, illustrating Christian dependence on Chaldean cosmology.

Earl: "Any allusions to the stars are pretty much that: allusive."

Allusive means having reference to something implied or inferred. So recognising that the Gospels allude to the stars is actually a significant point, indicating that the symbolic language of the parables, the miracles and the passion implies a hidden natural observational meaning. I have debated with Christians who obtusely reject any allegorical allusions in the Gospels. The attitude among historicist Christians tends to be that any effort to find meaning in cosmic cycles is unchristian. This old prejudice is baleful, because it closes people's minds to an objective analysis of the texts, and the allusions elude them.

Earl: "The one spot I can think of where we can see an astrological dimension to the myth is in Ignatius' Ephesians 19: "How then was he manifested to the world? A star shone in heaven beyond all the stars, and its light was unspeakable, and its newness caused astonishment, and all the other stars, with the sun and moon, gathered in chorus round this star, and it far exceeded them all in its light...""

I'm surprised you can only think of this one spot Earl, since there are so many, including those I just mentioned. Let me give you another example. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... tholic.gif shows the traditional Catholic symbol of the alpha and omega against the Chi Rho Cross. Here we see the astrological symbolism of the beginning and end of the Age of Pisces and the Great Year (alpha and omega) against the cosmic wheels within wheels (Chi X as zodiac and galaxy, Rho as Celestial Equator), in the dominant central symbolic motif of the Roman Catholic Church. The meaning is that the observed slow shift of the position of the galaxy against the seasons due to precession indicates the vision of the messianic promise of eventual redemption from the historic fall from grace. This natural stellar temporal meaning has been suppressed, but provides the real subconscious power of the symbols. The cosmic Christ symbolism was well understood in the Middle Ages, for example in the stained glass windows of the great cathedrals of France.

Earl: "I rather think that by now (early 2nd c.) such astrological imagery was regarded as simply poetic, though still speaking of a mythical Christ (Ignatius now giving it an historical overlay and understanding), but its roots may well go back to an actual interpretation of the heavens."

The question here is what the ancients meant by the Mysteries. The Gnostics took cosmic imagery more seriously. Looking again at the 4th century Neoplatonist Proclus, he comments on Plato's Parmenides that enlightened thought has to be concealed from the masses: "it is unbecoming to speak of the most divine of dogmas before the multitude, Plato himself asserting that all these are ridiculous to the many, but in an admirable manner are esteemed by the wise. Thus also, the Pythagoreans said, that of discourses, some are mystical, but others adapted to be delivered openly. With the Peripatetics likewise, some are esoteric, and others exoteric; and Parmenides himself, wrote some things conformable to truth, but others to opinion."

The continual problem is that it appears that astronomy was viewed as esoteric in the ancient world, a secret topic confined to mystery schools such as the Pythagoreans. If the Christ myth emerged as the synthesis view from the esoteric ancient tradition, it is conceivable that this origin was suppressed because it was inconvenient to the mass faith.

If I could mention one other example of this secret Pythagorean mysticism in Christianity, in John 21 Jesus says the disciples will catch 153 fish without breaking the net. As Freke and Gandy point out in The Jesus Mysteries, 153 is the Archimedean width of the Christian Ichthys fish, in a blatant, although lightly concealed from the ignorant, Gospel reference to the esoteric mathematical basis of mystical thought.

Earl: "I don't focus on this dimension since it is rather hard to demonstrate it from the texts themselves,"

The role of cosmology in theology is a key question to understand the historical origins of Christianity. A plausible conceptual framework for the origin of the Christ myth must recognise that the originators shared the ancient religious obsession with the heavens, and wished to formulate a narrative of how what they observed happening in the heavens was reflected on the earth, as required in the Lord's Prayer.

Earl: "and anyway Acharya has that aspect of things sewn up!"

I'm sure Ms Murdock would be grateful that you recognise her work on cosmology. Unfortunately, natural cosmology in the Bible is a taboo topic. It seems only pariah pioneers discuss the natural scientific origins of Christianity. Everyone else either fails to understand it or fears their reputation will be shot if they treat astrotheology as a normal scientific scholarly field of investigation.

Jake said: "My apologies. Will not happen again,"

Hi Jake, I hope I didn't upset you about the primodorial typo. I just thought it was amusing as a slip. Heraclitus, whose fragments on the Logos are often cited as primordial, had some comments about smell as primordial, a bit like other Greek comments deriving everything from water etc. He said "the psyche is a smoke-like substance of finest particles", "If all things were turned to smoke, the nostrils would distinguish them", and "in Hades, souls perceive each other by smell alone."

Robert Tulip


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Thanks, Robert!

It's great to see that little nod from Earl. It's been a hard-fought battle to demonstrate the blatant ancient astrotheological motifs in our "modern" religions.

If I could get Earl to read it, I'd send him a copy of Jesus as the Sun throughout History.

There was so much material, I could easily have made a lengthy book out of it, and I would, but the interest wasn't there - at least, not yet.

Do you have a copy? I'll send you one - PM me.

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As always, keep up the great work! You are definitely breaking through some thick barriers. I should add, in this regard, that the "mysteries" of the Jesus Mysteries group could have been solved long ago, if the participants there hadn't been so hostile to my research. The "mystery" behind Jesus is the SUN. If others would take a long hard look at all the solar/celestial imagery of the Gnostics, for example, much enlightenment would be had there as well.

I've never been one to spin wheels, so I just move along when encountering such irrational and unscientific resistance.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:39 pm 
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Acharya wrote:
Thanks, Robert!

It's great to see that little nod from Earl. It's been a hard-fought battle to demonstrate the blatant ancient astrotheological motifs in our "modern" religions.

If I could get Earl to read it, I'd send him a copy of Jesus as the Sun throughout History.
Thanks Acharya - Jesus as the Sun was in your recent $5 pdf compendium, and with your reminder now I have just read it. I will send a copy to Earl and encourage him to read it. It is brilliant!

I am continually amazed at how much more there is to find out about these enormous topics. I was particularly interested in your references to books about Christian sun imagery in the middle ages especially The Secret Zodiac: The Hidden Art in Mediaeval Astrology, published by Routledge, in discussing an image of the zodiac from the 10th century with the sun god at the center, by English college professor Fred Gettings.

You might recall my thread on the zodiac in Leonardo's Last Supper. I had not realised that you researched related topics in such depth, which provides an important further point for me to explain how and why Leonardo encoded the sidereal zodiac in the twelve disciples of The Last Supper, with Jesus as Pisces. Gettings discusses this inlaid marble floor with zodiac motifs from the 13th century, in S. Miniato al Monte, Florence, which Leonardo must have known.

Looking at this material led me to the website of April DeConick who you would find interesting, eg this blog on The Forbidden Gospels.
Quote:
There was so much material, I could easily have made a lengthy book out of it, and I would, but the interest wasn't there - at least, not yet.

As always, keep up the great work! You are definitely breaking through some thick barriers. I should add, in this regard, that the "mysteries" of the Jesus Mysteries group could have been solved long ago, if the participants there hadn't been so hostile to my research. The "mystery" behind Jesus is the SUN. If others would take a long hard look at all the solar/celestial imagery of the Gnostics, for example, much enlightenment would be had there as well.

I've never been one to spin wheels, so I just move along when encountering such irrational and unscientific resistance.

All these problems about discussing the natural origins of religious ideation get back to big assumptions and errors about the nature of cultural evolution. There is a massive prejudice which holds that the shift from solar worship to the Judaic idea of God as beyond the universe represented progress. What I find so interesting is the element of truth in this view which makes it so seductive, namely that by desacralising nature, western religion enabled the rise of technology and economic growth. The dominant idea is that we are 'sojourners', that this earth is somehow not our home, that alienation from and superiority to nature is a higher ethical position than recognition of our identity as part of nature. Actually this dominant Christian supernatural view with its opposition to the older divinisation of nature is sick and evil, leading humanity on a path to extinction as we foul our nest with CO2, defended by rampant delusory denial of reality.

Until we recognise that nature is sacred we have no hope to escape the impending destruction of human planetary civilization. The alienated materialist view of modern culture has its roots in a false JudeoChristian dominion theology. That view, with its YECist Genesis origin, regards acceptance of the sanctity of nature as a path of stagnation and poverty, but does not recognise how nature is the basis of all life. It is a simple fact that the sun is the source of all light and life for the earth. The sun contains 99.86% of all the mass of the solar system, with all the planets together making up the remaining 1/700th. The sun weighs 330,000 times as much as the earth. Life has travelled more than a dozen times around the galaxy with the sun, so the sun truly is our home.

The alienated supernatural view of God was deeply entrenched in the Deuteronomic tradition, as I mentioned above in citing Amos. But the natural cosmic view was in contest against supernaturalism, and was able to insert natural cosmic ideas in coded form into the Bible, in the hope that one day the world would change so that people would understand them....

I fear that Earl is intimidated by your bigoted critics into avoiding discussion of the cosmic meaning of the Gospels. He seems to enter an uneasy halfway zone with his ideas of mythical heavenly descent of Christ, rather than exploring how Jesus is allegory for the sun in its observed natural passage through the stars. His nod to you is a signal to the bigots that they disgrace themselves by criticising your scholarship without studying it.

Precession of the equinox shows that from our terrestrial viewpoint it is the sun that precesses, that the position of the sun as our main focus of reality and marker of time shifted from the background stars of Aries to Pisces at the time of Christ. This shift is entirely reflected as a main cause of the mythology of the Gospels. It is actually fairly simple when you study it and think about it, but it is very hard for people to clear away all the encrusted underbrush of traditional thought patterns.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:42 pm 
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Quote:
I fear that Earl is intimidated by your bigoted critics into avoiding discussion of the cosmic meaning of the Gospels. He seems to enter an uneasy halfway zone with his ideas of mythical heavenly descent of Christ, rather than exploring how Jesus is allegory for the sun in its observed natural passage through the stars. His nod to you is a signal to the bigots that they disgrace themselves by criticising your scholarship without studying it.

I think you really nailed it here, Robert. To be in Earl's shoes he must feel like he's between a rock and a hard place when it comes to discussing Acharya's work on astrotheology. There are so few who actually study astrotheology that it's inconvenient to even bring it up in most cases as the critics are like a pack of hyenas waiting to pounce.

I'm reminded of the WWJ review by David Mills:

Quote:
"... D.M. Murdock/Acharya S, like all authors on controversial subjects, has many critics. But they all share one commonality: They don't know what they're talking about. Murdock understands many languages and has a breadth of knowledge her critics cannot match. This fact irks the uninformed. Having given a fair hearing to some of her online detractors and their "rebuttal" videos, I have detected not only a lack of knowledge on the part of her critics, but also, in some cases, a thinly disguised misogyny ...."

- David Mills, author of Atheist Universe, quote from his review of Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ

Earl Doherty defers to Acharya for the subject of astrotheology:

Quote:
"A heavenly location for the actions of the savior gods, including the death of Christ, would also have been influenced by most religions' ultimate derivation from astrotheology, as in the worship of the sun and moon. For this dimension of more remote Christian roots, see the books of Acharya S, especially 'Suns of God."

- Earl Doherty, Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus (2009) page 153

Earl Doherty makes mention of these many times: "celestial Jesus" "celestial Christ" "Cosmic Christ" "heavenly Christ"

And remember, as Acharya points out, that the last book in the Old Testament is Malachi and at 4:2 it tells us:

"The sun of righteousness shall rise, with healing in his wings"

Acharya says: "This scripture, which is in the last chapter before the Gospel of Matthew, sounds much like the winged solar disc of Babylon and Egypt. This scripture in Malachi is perceived as a reference to the coming messiah, Jesus Christ. In this regard, this clearly solar appellation "Sun of Righteousness" is repeated many times by early Church fathers as being applicable to Christ."

Jesus as the Sun throughout History

When and if the day ever comes when Richard Carrier ever actually reads Acharya's work in astrotheology he will learn that she's already far ahead of him on the case for mythicism. While Carrier is still stuck narrowly focusing on the New Testament, Acharya has already covered that and much, much more.

Quote:
"I have no objection to postulating a 'prehistoric' (i.e., prior to our earliest horizon on Christianity) phase to the heavenly Christ cult in which observations of the heavens helped shaped the Christ myth." "Acharya has that aspect of things sewn up!"
- Earl Doherty

Earl Doherty wrote a review of Acharya's Christ Conspiracy:

Quote:
"Acharya S has done a superb job in bringing together this rich panoply of ancient world mythology and culture, and presenting it in a comprehensive and compelling fashion." "We sorely need a new History of Religions School for the 21st century, to apply modern techniques to this important ancient material. Perhaps this book will help bring that about."

- Earl Doherty

Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/review/R2QE1LGGUK ... eknownfoun

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/BkrvTCC.htm

Earl Doherty's Review of 'Christ Conspiracy'

Quote:
"Personally, I was fascinated by the window she provided onto the old History of Religions school of the 19th century, something we've largely lost sight of since mainstream academia circled its wagons in the early 20th century and drove them into eclipse. I think Acharya has done invaluable work in bringing them back into the light, as she has the unduly neglected field of astrotheology."

- Earl Doherty

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:50 am 
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Acharya wrote:
Jesus as the Sun throughout History. ... The "mystery" behind Jesus is the SUN. If others would take a long hard look at all the solar/celestial imagery of the Gnostics, for example, much enlightenment would be had there as well.


Here is a version I just made, showing the Chi Rho cross as the zodiac and galaxy

Attachment:
Jesus as the Sun.gif
Jesus as the Sun.gif [ 172.9 KiB | Viewed 14700 times ]


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:14 pm 
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We here at Freethought Nation already know that Richard Carrier has adopted Earl Doherty's "Celestial Jesus" claiming it is the "most plausible Mythicist Theory."

Below is the debate: Crook vs Carrier

Jesus of Nazareth: Man or myth? Debate Zeba Crook vs Richard Carrier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgmHqjblsPw

Carrier discusses Doherty's celestial Christ several times so, I thought I'd post this here in this thread.

at 33 minutes:

Carrier's Alternative Theory

- Jesus began as a celestial being (archangel), revealing truths to followers via revelations and hidden messages in scripture
- Christianity began when this "being" revealed that he had tricked the Devil by becoming incarnate and being crucified by the Devil (in the region of heavens ruled by Devil).
- Thereby atoning for all humanity's sins, so the End of the World could begin.
- Because they say this promised in the scripture: Daniel 9, Jeremiah 23 & 25, Isaiah 53, Zechariah 3 & 6.

---

TRENDS

37:55 Carrier discusses a variety of "TRENDS" such as dying and rising Gods etc.

- Romulus: Roman state god, his death and resurrection celebrated in annual plays
- Osiris: Egyptian god, those baptized into his death and resurrection are saved in the afterlife
- Zalmoxis: Thracian god, his death and resurrection assures followers of eternal life

Carrier: "So Christianity looks like the Jews wanted themselves one of these and so they actually created one that's a Jewish sense of this. So all the differences between Jesus and these others gods are the deliberate result of making these things acceptable to the Jewish."

Carrier: "Another piece of evidence that's important is Philo of Alexandria writing in the 20's to 40's AD. He tells us that there was in fact a pre-Xian belief Jewish belief in a celestial being actually named Jesus."

38:40 Philo's pre-Xian "celestial Jesus" "Confusion of Tongues 62-63, 146-7; On Dreams 1.215 etc.

- Firstborn son of god: Romans 8:29
- The celestial image of god: 2 Corinthians 4:4
- God's agent of creation: 1 Corithians 8:6
- God's celestial high priest: Hebrews 2:17, 4:14

Carrier: "So we have here evidence of either a tremendous coincidence that the Jews, uh, a separate Jewish theologian came up with a Jesus with all these attributes or that the Christians did. Or, there was a pre-Christian Jewish theological belief in a celestial Jesus."

At 40 minutes Carrier discusses what he calls the "most plausible Mythicist Theory" of Jesus's incarnation, death and burial taking place in outer space "just below the moon" and then, goes on to discuss that parallel with Osiris saying: "The same was taught of Osiris. This is actually a TREND."

---

41 The Ascension of Isaiah

45:15 Paul's authentic letters

104:20 Paul's reborn of the celestial woman

105:30 Brothers of the Lord

107:10 James the Apostle?

108:30 Assumptions

142:30 Arabic texts are proved to be a derivation of the Syriac texts of Eusebius so that we can trace it back to the original = not an earlier version of Josephus.

---

Carrier just could not stop himself from making another dumb comment

Carrier's dumb comment at 119:45: "But obviously there's a zillion more threads to follow on this so I highly recommend that you explore it more thoroughly but, I do recommend not trusting amateur writers unless you hear an expert author tell you to trust them or tell you to look at them. What you want to look for is not websites that talk about how many parallels there are between Jesus and Horus - that's generally crap. What you want to look for are good scholarly arguments that are being published from peer reviewed books. Right now, my next book coming up is the one to look at (Crowd laughs)."

* Carrier makes arguments for a variety of "trends" starting at around 38 minutes and explains those "trends" as having influence or essentially, syncreticism. But later, at 119:45, Carrier turns right around to make an obvious jab at Acharya telling the crowd not to listen to other authors and that the Horus-Jesus parallels are "crap." So, he comes off basically saying that the parallels are correct, but only when Carrier says it. When Acharya basically says the same thing, "it's crap" according to Carrier, same as he has done many times before.

Never mind the fact that we have a video clip of modern Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov admitting parallels between Osiris &/or Horus with Jesus.



---

Carrier on syncreticism

From my previous post on Carrier & syncretism
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums ... 775#p27775

Quote:
Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist: A Historian Explains the Evidence That Changed His Mind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUZOZN-9dc

Carrier makes many excellent points regarding the "celestial Jesus" and syncretism, however, Carrier really just flat out drops the ball on the topic of Dec 25th and the 12 disciples at 20 minutes after, mind you, having just discussed syncretism previously (shakes head with total amazement :shock: ). It's like he's soooo afraid of those parallels that he's afraid to even discuss them beyond hand-waving dismissals (parallelophobia). Sad, very sad. I'm reminded of Carrier's own comments several years ago:

Quote:
"...consider his [Kersey Graves] emphasis on the December 25 birth date as a common feature. This is one of the things he [Kersey Graves] gets right, at least regarding Greco-Roman religion: all gods associated with the sun shared the sun's 'birthday,' erroneously identified as December 25..."

- From here

Carrier discusses syncretism starting at around 13 minutes.

Just prior to 58 minutes Carrier says: "But they are all different from each other. The differences are not the issue. Their similarities are what identify them as a trend." ... "The differences are part of the syncretism."

At 25 minutes, Carrier says Osiris' & Jesus' death and resurrection are a clear parallel, which he pointed out years ago in an article about a book published in 2005 and I posted it here. So, it's just flat out bizarre that Carrier would argue against Egyptian influence.

Otherwise, very informative. Of course, Carrier doesn't really say anything Acharya hasn't already said in her own way. So, it really makes no sense that Carrier is incapable of acknowledging that Acharya may be correct about anything at all. He's obviously jealous of her and prejudice against her.

Richard Carrier works himself into a pretzel just to avoid any potential agreement with Acharya like the plague.

P.S. I decided to go ahead and re-post this at 'On the Historicity of Jesus' by Dick Carrier

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