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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:54 pm 
Hello there everyone, two days ago I got into an argument with a Zeitgeist Debunker (he is an Atheist by the way) over in Stickam. When I mentioned some of the evidence that supports Zeitgeist basically what he just got hung up over is about the whole 12 Disciples. I won't even go into assessment about the Djed Pillar and how he showed his ignorace of Egyptian Iconography and it's significance on Egyptian Mythology.

Image

This was the image that I had shown to him to support the notion that Horus had 12 Disciples. After which he kept trying to state that there is no indication that these are the 12 Disciples of Horus. I was going to pull out Christ in Egypt when he decidedly made an assessment about Murdock being fringe, etc...

After that I decided to tell him I would e-mail the British Museum for information on this and the image. The interesting thing about this is though I got a response I didn't expect:

Quote:
What you have here is the sun god, Re, who is melded with Horus to become Re-Horakti, (Re -Horus of the Horizon), in his journey through the hours of the night. At night, time was told by the stars, and before the seated Re you have 12 male and 12 female (your picture is cut off, but there are 12 female figures with stars on their heads in the full image), who are the stars for telling the 12 hours of the night. They are guarding Re and also helping to illuminate his way through the underworld, The Egyptians divided the night into 12 hours and as different stars and associated constellations rose, they could determine how much time had passed. These stars were not disciples and different numbers of them can be found on various underworld depictions with and without Re.
Hope this clarifies things for you.
Renee Friedman, Assistant Keeper (Curator) of the Department of Ancient Egypt and Sudan


I was curious if anyone could give any assessment about this at all and if anything to have Ms. Murdock respond.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:40 pm 
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Thanks for posting that. While the comments by the curator are interesting it appears that the curator is confused about the image being cut-off. The image comes from a book by highly respected modern Egyptologist Erik Hornung who says:

"Horus enthroned before the Twelve, Seventh Hour of the Amduat.
(Erik Hornung, The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife, 48)"

There's a 20 page chapter on that subject in Christ in Egypt starting at the bottom of page 269. Here's an image from Egyptologist Eric Hornung's book on the 12 at Acharya's description page for CIE for all to see. There are many more images of "the twelve" in the book.

Image
Quote:
Horus enthroned before the Twelve, Seventh Hour of the Amduat.
(Erik Hornung, The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife, 48)

Horus and the Twelve (12)

Here is what Acharya has said:

Quote:
The image is from p. 48 of Dr. Erik Hornung's book The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife - it has not been cut off. The original depiction is in the tomb of Tuthmosis III, as found on p. 39 of Hornung's book, in which the other figures are not only separated from the 12 in front of the seated god but they are also facing the other direction. Clearly the artist meant them to be in groups of TWELVE. Moreover, Hornung describes this scene as "the sun god...enthroned as 'Horus of the netherworld.'" (Hornung, AEBA, 39) This book can be viewed online using Amazon's "Look Inside" feature. As I explain in my book in the many pages of "The Twelve Followers" chapter, these "stars" are personified as human beings, just as the sun has been. They are also considered "helpers" or "assistants" of Horus, Ra or Osiris. The word "disciple" is used in order to illustrate a point - no one has said that the Greek word, which simply means "learner" or "pupil," is found on the walls of the Egyptian tombs. The point is that there certainly DOES exist a common and popular motif of a god with 12 "helpers" - by whatever name - in pre-Christian Egyptian religion, as elsewhere. This motif was fervently denied until I brought forth this evidence, and now that it can't be denied it is being dismissed with ultimately meaningless nitpicking. Nevertheless, the fact will remain that long before Jesus and the 12 supposedly existed, there were Amun and the 12, Osiris and the 12, Ra and the 12, and Horus and the 12, again among others. (See my "ZEITGEIST Sourcebook" for a thorough list of "the 12" motif in pre-Christian and biblical mythology/religion.)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:33 pm 
Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Thanks for posting that. While the comments by the curator are interesting it appears that the curator is confused about the image being cut-off. The image comes from a book by highly respected modern Egyptologist Erik Hornung who says:

"Horus enthroned before the Twelve, Seventh Hour of the Amduat.
(Erik Hornung, The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife, 48)"

There's a 20 page chapter on that subject in Christ in Egypt starting at the bottom of page 269. Here's an image from Egyptologist Eric Hornung's book on the 12 at Acharya's description page for CIE for all to see. There are many more images of "the twelve" in the book.

Image
Quote:
Horus enthroned before the Twelve, Seventh Hour of the Amduat.
(Erik Hornung, The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife, 48)

Horus and the Twelve (12)

Here is what Acharya has said:

Quote:
The image is from p. 48 of Dr. Erik Hornung's book The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife - it has not been cut off. The original depiction is in the tomb of Tuthmosis III, as found on p. 39 of Hornung's book, in which the other figures are not only separated from the 12 in front of the seated god but they are also facing the other direction. Clearly the artist meant them to be in groups of TWELVE. Moreover, Hornung describes this scene as "the sun god...enthroned as 'Horus of the netherworld.'" (Hornung, AEBA, 39) This book can be viewed online using Amazon's "Look Inside" feature. As I explain in my book in the many pages of "The Twelve Followers" chapter, these "stars" are personified as human beings, just as the sun has been. They are also considered "helpers" or "assistants" of Horus, Ra or Osiris. The word "disciple" is used in order to illustrate a point - no one has said that the Greek word, which simply means "learner" or "pupil," is found on the walls of the Egyptian tombs. The point is that there certainly DOES exist a common and popular motif of a god with 12 "helpers" - by whatever name - in pre-Christian Egyptian religion, as elsewhere. This motif was fervently denied until I brought forth this evidence, and now that it can't be denied it is being dismissed with ultimately meaningless nitpicking. Nevertheless, the fact will remain that long before Jesus and the 12 supposedly existed, there were Amun and the 12, Osiris and the 12, Ra and the 12, and Horus and the 12, again among others. (See my "ZEITGEIST Sourcebook" for a thorough list of "the 12" motif in pre-Christian and biblical mythology/religion.)


Thanks for the information.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Hey, VOR, we actually had this same argument on one of Chelevsara's videos in response to the youtuber "daddox". The curator is misrepresenting things a little bit. The image is not "cut off", in that anything relevant to Horus is missing. The full pic is actually 12 males facing Horus, and then 12 females facing a crocodile which is obviously either Set, who often takes on crocodile form in depictions where he is in conflict with Horus, sometimes a full croc, other times just a croc head on a humanoid body, or it may also be Sobek. These clearly represent the 12 hours of day with Horus and 12 hours of night with the crocodile. So the curator was spot on there, just, as I said, a little misrepresenting of things, since only the 12 males concern Horus.

I also find her statement "These stars were not disciples and different numbers of them can be found..." to be a bit curious, since she just previously conceded that these represent the hours of day and night, and well, unless you live in someplace like Alaska(which of course, the Egyptians did not), then there are always approximately 12 hours of day & night, so why in the hell would there ever be various numbers? Sounds to me like she may be making false equivocations. Moreover, we are not cherry picking disparate motifs here, as though we sifted through all the pictures of gods with various numbered groups until we just happened to find one that had exactly 12.

No. There are so many depictions in the Amduat hours depicting Ra and Osiris with various groups of twelve.

Also, I think the curator, and this zeitgeist antagonist, are getting too hung up on the word "disciple". It doesn't need to be a disciple, it just needs to be a close affiliation with the number 12 in order to be a conspicuous source of influence. Afterall, the tribes of Israel, which ANYONE will admit is another source of influence on xtianity, were not 12 "disciples". They're basically 12 races, or sub-races(or whatever). Even the book of Revelation, verse 21:14, symbolizes the 12 apostles with 12 foundations of a city, and the 12 tribes with 12 pearly gates. See, this goes back around to the argument I made in my videos debunking the "differences outweigh the similarities" excuse.

If the BIBLE ITSELF admits that 12 building foundations can be a parallel to 12 people, then why the hell would 12 PEOPLE not also parallel 12 people?

See, a double standard. Debunkers never think these things through nor apply consistent logic.

Image
Image

How many groupings of twelve can you count here in the following links?

http://www.egiptologia.org/textos/amduat/09/amduat09.jpg

http://www.egiptologia.org/textos/amduat/12/amduat12.jpg

http://www.egiptologia.org/textos/amduat/01/amduat01.jpg


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:49 pm 
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This is a great post!

I think Renee Friedman, who seems helpful, should be contacted again. Perhaps she would like to comment further on the additional comments to the original post?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:14 am 
vega wrote:
This is a great post!

I think Renee Friedman, who seems helpful, should be contacted again. Perhaps she would like to comment further on the additional comments to the original post?


I am actually awaiting her response at the moment. I did send the person an e-mail back and he responded, this is what he said.

Quote:
Interesting.

So it's not Horus per se (but Re-Horakti), and they are not disciples at all in any meaningfull sense of the word.

They represent stars (remember, I pointed that out) which symbolize the 12 hours. The other twelve (not shown) represent the other 12 hours.

Other similar depictions have different roles and different numbers, as I pointed out to you.

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Jesus and his disciples!

Thanks for conceding the point.


This statement was given after he had read the e-mail on the forum and did not bother to read down any further. Here is what I said to him:

[You apparently do not even get the argument to begin with. I NEVER said that his "disciples" (a loose word to use when referring to these numbers) were even in any way shape or form related to Jesus in regards to teaching, performing miracles, etc...

I doubt you even bothered to read the response and some of the other threads in it as well.

Quote:
The image is from p. 48 of Dr. Erik Hornung's book The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife - it has not been cut off. The original depiction is in the tomb of Tuthmosis III, as found on p. 39 of Hornung's book, in which the other figures are not only separated from the 12 in front of the seated god but they are also facing the other direction. Clearly the artist meant them to be in groups of TWELVE. Moreover, Hornung describes this scene as "the sun god...enthroned as 'Horus of the netherworld.'" (Hornung, AEBA, 39) This book can be viewed online using Amazon's "Look Inside" feature. As I explain in my book in the many pages of "The Twelve Followers" chapter, these "stars" are personified as human beings, just as the sun has been. They are also considered "helpers" or "assistants" of Horus, Ra or Osiris. The word "disciple" is used in order to illustrate a point - no one has said that the Greek word, which simply means "learner" or "pupil," is found on the walls of the Egyptian tombs. The point is that there certainly DOES exist a common and popular motif of a god with 12 "helpers" - by whatever name - in pre-Christian Egyptian religion, as elsewhere. This motif was fervently denied until I brought forth this evidence, and now that it can't be denied it is being dismissed with ultimately meaningless nitpicking. Nevertheless, the fact will remain that long before Jesus and the 12 supposedly existed, there were Amun and the 12, Osiris and the 12, Ra and the 12, and Horus and the 12, again among others. - Acharya S


Also do you not understand again, the fact that these god's were interchangeable, as in their epithets, names, roles and even the god's (goddesses) themselves would change and be conflated with one another. In other words, the roles and deities were very flexible in Egyptian Mythology. I told you this before and you are ignoring it yet again, remember when I said that the Djed Pillar, the Sun he was holding up and Osiris being presented with the arms holding the Sun can all be considered Horus/Osiris/Re? I mean geez are you this dense?

Also another user pointed out the following the forum.

Quote:
"We actually had this same argument on one of Chelevsara's videos in response to the youtuber "daddox". The curator is misrepresenting things a little bit. The image is not "cut off", in that anything relevant to Horus is missing. The full pic is actually 12 males facing Horus, and then 12 females facing a crocodile which is obviously Set, who often takes on crocodile form in depictions where he is in conflict with Horus. Sometimes a full croc, other times just a croc head on a humanoid body. These clearly represent the 12 hours of day with Horus and 12 hours of night with Set. So the curator was spot on there, just, as I said, a little misrepresenting of things, since only the 12 males concern Horus.

I also find her statement "These stars were not disciples and different numbers of them can be found..." to be a bit curious, since she just previously conceded that these represent the hours of day and night, and well, unless you live in someplace like Alaska(which of course, the Egyptians did not), then there are always approximately 12 hours of day & night, so why in the hell would there ever be various numbers? Sounds to me like she may be making false equivocations. Moreover, we are not cherry picking disparate motifs here, as though we sifted through all the pictures of gods with various numbered groups until we just happened to find one that had exactly 12.

No. There are so many depictions in the Amduat hours depicting Ra and Osiris with various groups of twelve.

Also, I think the curator, and this zeitgeist antagonist, are getting too hung up on the word "disciple". It doesn't need to be a disciple, it just needs to be a close affiliation with the number 12 in order to be a conspicuous source of influence. Afterall, the tribes of Israel, which ANYONE will admit is another source of influence on xtianity, were not 12 "disciples". They're basically 12 races, or sub-races(or whatever). Even the book of Revelation, verse 21:14, symbolizes the 12 apostles with 12 foundations of a city, and the 12 tribes with 12 pearly gates. See, this goes back around to the argument I made in my videos debunking the "differences outweigh the similarities" excuse.

If the BIBLE ITSELF admits that 12 building foundations can be a parallel to 12 people, then why the hell would 12 PEOPLE not also parallel 12 people?

See, a double standard. Debunkers never think these things through nor apply consistent logic. - GodAlmighty


I asked you before many times a very simple question, do you understand typology? Do you accept that the new testament writers based their story, themes, sayings, etc... on the old testament? If so, how is that any different from Zeitgeist's argument?

I get the feeling you didn't even bother reading anything else other than what you wanted to read. You have selective hearing, you select what you want to read that observes your own biases, you have basically shown a huge amount of ignorance of a claim that "I have studied it" even when asked if you even read Massey when you admitted you didn't. I am convinced that you are like every single Zeitgeist "debunker" I have ever ran into. You make the presupposed statement that some how Zeitgeist is full of shit, so you read articles and claim that it has been debunked without trying to verify whether or not these are strawman statements, reducteo ad absurdum fallacies, ad hominem attacks, and so on, and you promulgate these argument as if it is anything new.

Unless you can provide me reasons to believe that you are not the typical Zeitgeist "debunker" then I am forced to believe other wise.]

The message is in the brackets, let me know what yah guys think. I would also like anyone else to comment on this statement.

Image

This picture is to all the Zeitgeist Debunkers out there.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:57 am 
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So he keeps dodging the issue of typology, eh?
I wouldn't expect anything more than the same old shit if there's even a reply. Unfortunately, it's rare to ever hear them say at least "hmmm... interesting, I'll have to research this further" or something to that effect, let alone admit that you're right.
After Chelev handed out similar pwnage that daddox kid, he just disappeared and never replied again.

And that pic is spot on. Did you make it?

And BTW, you said this was on Stickam, did you happen to record any of it?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:20 pm 
GodAlmighty wrote:
So he keeps dodging the issue of typology, eh?
I wouldn't expect anything more than the same old shit if there's even a reply. Unfortunately, it's rare to ever hear them say at least "hmmm... interesting, I'll have to research this further" or something to that effect, let alone admit that you're right.
After Chelev handed out similar pwnage that daddox kid, he just disappeared and never replied again.

And that pic is spot on. Did you make it?

And BTW, you said this was on Stickam, did you happen to record any of it?


The reply I got from the curator is that it is a policy not get involved in online discussions at this point so we won't be able to hear any of her comments. She does say though that the number is not 12 but it is 24... that is all I got from her and I'll respect the policies of the company she puts forth.

Quote:
Anyways this is the reply I got:

Hey man, I don't mean to be rude, but you are wasting my time with this.

You're moving the goal post.

I might come back to it, but right now I'd rather be spending my time working on something else.

Good luck, though.

No hard feelings.


By the way no, I didn't record it but I think I will do that from now on when discussing these things so people can get an actual idea of what is going on here.

As far as the pic, yah I made it actually. I thought the omniscient and omnipotent god would know that.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:07 pm 
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Very interesting and good work you're doing here.

Adding to my comments above, and in response to the latest from the British Museum, I quote the author of the book from which the images above are garnered, Dr. Erik Hornung, a well-respected Swiss Egyptologist, in The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife:

Quote:
As an individual Book of the Netherworld, the Amduat bears an original title, namely, Book of the Hidden Chamber... Its division into twelve sections corresponds to the twelve hours of the night.... (32)

The book describes the journey of the sun god through the twelve hours of the night, from his setting to his rising in the morning. (33-34)

Yes, there are 24 star-gods in the full image, representing the night and the day hours. However, here and elsewhere we are ONLY talking about the twelve who are with Horus, as he leads them through the night, described by Dr. Hornung.

The other, parallel but separate scene of Set and the 12 is likewise interesting, important and entirely relevant to the mythical motif of the god or godman with the 12.

Another of these underworld books is the Spell of the Twelve Caves, which is based on spell 168 of the Book of the Dead (Hornung, 21). In this spell, the deceased ("N") travels through the 12 "caves" of the underworld, which represent the hours of the night. (Hornung, 54ff)

Hornung also discusses the 12 star-goddesses who likewise personify the hours - note these are not just "stars" but personified goddesses. In any event, in the Egyptian religion appears an abundance of "the 12" motif. Be sure to check out the chapter in my book Christ in Egypt for more, including quotes from Herodotus and others about the Egyptian 12, which includes those lost souls shepherded by Horus into the afterlife. This theme of a divine being promising his immediate 12 followers eternal life should sound familiar.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:18 pm 
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Quote:
I thought the omniscient and omnipotent god would know that.


Right. Well, yahweh asked Adam were he was, and several other questions which no christian seems to see as contradictory, so...


Anyway, all due respect to the curator, but she is wrong, about a great many things.

First of all, I am looking at four different books right now, and a web page, and they ALL say TWELVE, and they ALL say HORUS, not Ra.

They don't even say Ra-Horakty. And rightly so, because that is not the name in the text. Budge has the text here in "Book of the Am-tuat: Chapter VII"-

Quote:
"1. The god HERU-HER-KHENT-F, seated on a throne, as his name implies. He is hawk-headed, and wears the solar disk encircled by a serpent; in his right hand is the symbol of life, and in his left a sceptre. The other forms of his name are ### and ###. Of this god it is said: "The work of this figure who is in this picture is in the Tuat, and it is for him to send the stars on their way, and to make the hours to go on their way in the Tuat." The stars are personified by gods, twelve in number, who stand each with a star on his head. Their names are:
1. UR-KERT.
2. KEKHERT (?).
3. NEB-KHERT-TA.
4. TUATI.
5. HIAT.
6. HI-KHU-.
7. EMTA-A.
8. TESER-A.
9. EMMA-A.
10. SEM-NES-F.
11. TESEM-EM-MAAT-F.
12. SEQER-TEPU.

The text relating to these gods reads: "The Majesty of Horus of the Tuat saith unto the starry gods:--O ye who are maat in your flesh, whose magical powers have come into being for you, who are united unto your stars and who yourselves rise up for Ra in the horizon which is in the Tuat each day, O be ye in his following, and let your stars guide his two hands so that he may journey through the Beautiful Ament in peace. And, O ye gods who stand up, who dwell in our land, light up ye your stars in the sky so that [i] may unite [myself] with the master of the horizon."


Quote:
2. The Twelve Goddesses of the Hours, who face to the right, having each a star on her head. Their names are:
1. HEKENNUTHETH.
2. NEBT-EN-.
3. NEBT-NEBT.
4. TUATHETH.
5. AMENTET-ERMEN.
6. [Name erased.]
7. ANITH.
8. AUNITH.
9. TAIT.
10. ARIT-KHU.
11. ARIT-ARU.
12. UAAT-TESTES.


And in his book "An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary", in the description of HERU-HER-KHENT-F, he writes "Horus, master of the stars and hours", NOT Horus of the two horizons.

Moreover, it makes little to no sense to assert Horus is merging with Ra here, because Ra had just merged with Osiris in the previous hour, at midnight.

Anyway, Budge further states in "The Egyptian Heaven and Hell Part" part 3, p.153-
Quote:
"On the right of the Boat of AFU-RA, and facing it, are Horus, and the twelve gods of the hours, who protect the tombs of Osiris, and assist RA in his journey; next come twelve goddesses of the hours, who face in the opposite direction, and are entreated to guide 'the god who is on the horizon to the beautiful Amentet in peace.' "


Karl Baedeker likewise says it is Horus and twelve, not Ra with twenty-four, here in "Egypt and the Sûdân: handbook for travellers"-
Quote:
"Horus, before whom are the TWELVE star-gods who conduct the sun at night; TWELVE star-goddesses approaching the grave of Osiris, upon which a crocodile rests."



And just in case the excuse of "outdated scholarship!" comes up-

The Quest for Immortality: Treasures of Ancient Egypt edited by Erik Hornung and Betsy Morrell Bryan
Quote:
In the lower register, the sun god is enthroned as "Horus of the Netherworld" in order to ensure the correct movement of the celestial bodies, the personification of which fill the rest of the register; twelve gods and twelve goddesses...


The Sungod's Journey Through the Netherworld By Andreas Schweizer(foreward by Erik Hornung), p.147-
Quote:
"The incipient renewal of life is beautifully illustrated in the lower register of the seventh nocturnal hour. It begins with an image of the falcon-headed Horus, who holds the was-scepter(symbolizing well-being and happiness) and the ankh-hieroglyph(symbolizing life) in his hands and bears a sun disk on his head. In this subterranean form, he watches over twelve male and twelve female deities, each of them carrying a star on his or her head. The accompanying texts reveal their meaning and function. Above Horus and the star gods, we read of their meaning: What he(Horus) has to do in the netherworld: To make the star gods move and to set the positions of the hours in the netherworld. And above the goddesses, we read of their function: These are the gods and goddesses who guide this great god to the mysterious path of this place. Clearly, the gods represent the totality of all the stars wandering over the night sky; they are, so to speak, an ordering principle of the world above. the goddesses, for their part, symbolize the twelve nocturnal hours and oversee the orderly continuation of the Sungod's journey through the netherworld."



The spanish website http://www.egiptologia.org/textos/amduat/07/ has the text translated as follows as per translate.google-

Quote:
Above representations:

This image is of Horus on His Throne. This image is so. What he has to do in the Duat is to put the stars in motion and produce the positions of the hours in the Duat (8). The majesty of Horus of the Duat speaks to the gods stars (9): Let your meat is, that your forms to life, so you can be at rest in (10) your star. You remain at this Ra Horizonte, which is in the Duat every day. You are at his entourage and your stars are in front of him to allow cross (11), through the beautiful West in peace. You are really those that abide in the land. Oh you, your stars me (?) Belong, I'm in heaven! Really pleased the Lord of the Horizon. The majesty of Horus of the Duat speaks to the hours that are in this city: Hours Oh come, Oh Hours starry Hours protect Oh Ra, who you are fighting on behalf of The Horizon. Take your forms, bring your images, lift up your heads, while you conduct yourselves in that Ra is on the horizon to the west in peace beautiful. These gods and goddesses in this Great God lead the way towards this mysterious city.

The god on the throne:

Horus in his Throne.

The twelve gods with stars:

The Lower Grande Region.
The Lord of the Lower Region.
The Lord of the provisions of the Earth.
The of the Duat.
Star Hy (Hy-sbAw).
The Spirits Hy (Hy-AXW).
He who raises his arm.
The holy arm.
The powerful arm.
The knife in your language.
The knife in your eye.
Which allows the head to breathe.

The twelve goddesses stars:

I adored her.
The Lady of the Earth.
The Lady of the Ladies.
That of the Duat.
The Right Hand.
The Driving.
The one who brings.
The one that opens.
The Weaver.
The illuminating.
That makes the forms.
The evil presented.

Text on the crocodile in your bank:

He is well on its sandbank. He keeps the image of this city. The moment he hears the voice of the crew of the boat of Ra, Eye leaves his spine. Then head out there on the bench. He swallows his image after this Great God has passed it. Anyone who knows this will be a ba which will never be swallowed by the crocodile Evil Lake.

Crocodile Name:

Wicked Lake, which is in the Duat.

Over the crocodile:

The Eye of Horus.

Below the head

The head of Osiris.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:23 pm 
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Damn, it appears I took too long. Sorry Acharya, I didn't mean to bury your post. :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:29 pm 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
Damn, it appears I took too long. Sorry Acharya, I didn't mean to bury your post. :oops:

No problem. I'm enjoying your posts very much. That's the sort of thing I love to see! It's very encouraging. Good job!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:26 pm 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
See, this goes back around to the argument I made in my videos debunking the "differences outweigh the similarities" excuse.

If the BIBLE ITSELF admits that 12 building foundations can be a parallel to 12 people, then why the hell would 12 PEOPLE not also parallel 12 people?

A good video series indeed!

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:49 am 
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Quote:
Interesting.

So it's not Horus per se (but Re-Horakti), and they are not disciples at all in any meaningfull sense of the word.

They represent stars (remember, I pointed that out) which symbolize the 12 hours. The other twelve (not shown) represent the other 12 hours.

Other similar depictions have different roles and different numbers, as I pointed out to you.

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Jesus and his disciples!

Thanks for conceding the point.

Now as for this response from the skeptic in question, he's grasping at straws. It has been pointed out time and again that the motif of the 12 includes reference to both the hours of day and night as well as the 12 signs of the zodiac / months of the year.
Quote:
The Twelve Followers

As is the case with other major characteristics of the Egyptian gods that have been associated with Jesus, the claim that Horus had 12 "disciples" cannot be found easily in modern encyclopedias or mainstream books. In reality, the association of the sun god with "the Twelve" in a number of other cultures, including the 12 Olympian gods of Greece, as well as those of the Romans, along with the 12 adventures of Gilgamesh, the 12 labors of Hercules and the 12 Tribes of Israel, all of which symbolize the months of the year and / or the zodiacal signs. (Jackson, MGC, 93; Frazer, FOTS, 50. See Exodus 39:9-14 "...they made the breast plate... And they set in it four rows of stones... And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve...according to the twelve tribes." As Josephus says (Antiquities, 3.8) : "And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of signs of that circle which the Greeks call the zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning." (Josephus/Whiston, 75.) Earlier than Josephus, Philo ("On the life of Moses," 12) had made the same comments regarding Moses: "Then the twelve stones on the breast, which are not like one another in colour, and which are divided into four rows of three stones in each, what else can they be emblems of, except of the circle of the zodiac?" (Philo/Duke, 99.)

The same can be said of the Christian Twelve, as apostles and disciples of Jesus, who also have been depicted as signs in the circle of the zodiac, including, as we have seen, by the Venerable Bede in the seventh century, with their zodiacal significance extending back much further, to as early as the second century. So too do we find "the Twelve" in Egypt in a variety of places, including groupings of gods and goddesses. Indeed, in addition to the commonly depicted groups of eight or nine Egyptian gods, the latter being styled "the Ennead," there were other companies of 12, as we have seen in the nativity scene and as is to be expected from a culture so focused on time and astronomy, since the number 12 generally symbolizes hours and months.
CiE p. 261- 262


Further, Jesus is used to personify the sun and it's movements. The myth covers the various aspects of time keeping and astronomy in that way. And just as Horus had 12 helpers that he traveled with through the day and night, so did Jesus have 12 helpers that he traveled around with through the day and night as well. The disciples took him around by boat and on foot and helped him along the way. The 12 helpers of Horus help the sun along on it's daily and annual journey. The 12 disciples are Jesus' 12 helpers that help him along on his journey around each of the signs of the zodiac throughout the year because he is a personification of the sun as well:



So how does he get off thinking that this has "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Jesus and his disciples"?

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:05 pm 
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^Indeed. And the author of the gospel of John seems to be dropping hints that such is the case-
Quote:
"Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him
." John 11:9-10


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