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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:47 pm 
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Yep, that's right Tat, Robert Eisenman should be on the list too.

Well, te, he ... I've stirred-up a monster (Happy Halloween!) I sent this list to Acharya and she's going to work on it - she already has 150+ and that's after removing some of the less prominent individuals. And, this list will be in her next book project.

I also just wanted to add here in this thread a new article by Earl Doherty (our friend & fellow mythicist) concerning "the Demise of The Jesus Project." I think it's an important read for all interested on the issues related to this thread. Earl says:
Quote:
"As it turned out, even before the opening meeting (delayed almost a year beyond the initially scheduled time) the possibility that Jesus’ existence would be questioned by the Project apparently created difficulties, leading to the refusal of some scholars to take part and to a degree of backtracking by those in charge, until it became reduced to little more than another “Quest for the Historical Jesus.” The only difference was that it was stated as part of its mandate that it would not assume the existence of an historical Jesus a priori, but adopt an “agnostic” stance on the question.

That opening meeting was devoted to a discussion of the methodologies that would be employed, but here again the same stumbling block arose. Since no scholars who were openly and actively mythicists were invited to take part, no methodologies applicable to the existence of Jesus question were presented for consideration. At the meeting itself, as I understand it from various reports, no objection was voiced to the missing dimension, but the question was raised on blogs and in subsequent discussion (not all of it entirely harmonious) by various people involved or on the sidelines, and it was clear that this was going to be a stickler in the future—an elephant in the room.... "
http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/JesusProject.htm

Keep in mind this blog by Dr. R. Joseph Hoffmann, Chair, CSER and co-Chair of The Jesus Project:
Quote:
The Jesus Project
June 15, 2007

"Dr. Hoffmann details a new project involving scholars from many disciplines that is trying to determine the likelihood of Jesus of Nazareth having ever existed. The goal of The Jesus Project, according to Dr. Hoffmann, is not to “prove” the non-existence of Jesus, but to take the theory as a “testable hypothesis” and use the best methods of critical inquiry to reach a probable conclusion."
http://www.pointofinquiry.org/r_joseph_ ... s_project/

Now, get a load of this:

Thirty Theses: Plausible Propositions for the Existence of a Historical Jesus by Hoffmann May 20, 2009
http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/20 ... cal-jesus/

In my own view, Hoffmann & some of the others party to The Jesus Project lost credibility. Those 30 Propositions for the Existence of a Historical Jesus" embarrassingly sound like they're coming from a Christian apologist. The Jesus Project, claiming to examine the mythicist case apparently had no intention of doing so at all. The Jesus Project turned out to be more an insult to mythicists than anything else. Not only were there no mythicists invited to take part but, they were purposely excluded!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:00 pm 
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I have taken this list and done extensive research, to come up with over 150 mythicists over the past couple of centuries. This list will be included in my upcoming project. It will probably be pared down to just "strong mythicists." There are those who continually raised the issue of whether or not Jesus existed but who were somewhat non-committal in their conclusions. Such as Dr. Albert Schweitzer. These folks would probably fit in best in the evemerist category, although many evemerists don't even realize that there is a debate about Christ's historicity, which is why some might be categorized as "weak mythicists."

Other "weak mythicists" may be those who say to the effect that it doesn't matter whether or not Jesus lived as a human being on earth, it's the spiritual concepts that are meaningful.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:36 pm 
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"The lost language of celestial allegory can now be restored, chiefly through the resurrection of ancient Egypt; the scriptures can be read as they were originally written, according to the secret wisdom, and we now know how history was first written as mythology."
- Gerald Massey

"Instead of mythology being a disease of language, it may be truly said that our theology is a disease of mythology"
- Gerald Massey

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:48 pm 
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I'm re-posting Acharya's quote originally from here by Dr. Christian Lindtner in what Acharya calls Lindtner's Challenge:
Quote:
"In her most recent essay, "The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus", the American scholar Acharya S /D.M.Murdock argues, forcefully and boldly, in favour of the thesis that Jesus was not at all a historical person, but rather - as so many other sons of God in those days of old - a personification of the Sun.

In support of this point of view - one that she is not the first to advocate, but for which she deserves credit in graciously attending the advocacy - she adduces Christian as well as non-Christian sources, primary as well as secondary. Unremittingly, she reminds her readers of the fact that nearly everything that is said or written about the Jesus called Christ, had already at an earlier date been reported about the Buddha - or the Buddhas (too many to count), about Krishna, about Horus, about Prometheus, and, indeed, about numerous other now less known mythical figures.

That this is actually the case, no scholar familiar with Hellenistic religion and syncretism will be able to deny. Should he venture to deny, as some still do, then his colleagues can only deplore his ignorance of the relevant sources. Should anyone, moreover, wish to claim that Jesus - as opposed to so many other sons of God - is a historical person, then that defender of the old faith has a very heavy burden of proof resting upon his shoulders.

Our theologians, as a rule, simply postulate that there is no reason to doubt that Jesus was or is a historical person. There may be doubt, they admit, about the nature of that person, about the credibility of the evangelists in certain details etc., but about his existence, no, no, there can be no doubt.

Such a stand is apologetic and anything but scientific. An appeal to mere faith is an appeal to sheer ignorance.

Under such circumstances, our professional historians of religion would be expected to raise a storm of protest. They do, as a rule, fail to protest, and their failure is nothing short of a disgrace. Educated historians ought to enlighten and warn the public that there is neither solid external or internal evidence in support of the claim that Jesus was in any way a historical person.

Did Jesus really exist? - the question is not a new one. The great German theologian, Adolf Harnack once (back in 1909, before he became von Harnack) called it "the embarrassing question", i.e. embarrassing for those who raised it (viz. Kalthoff, Jensen, Drews). We must now say that von Harnack got it wrong. The question is now embarrassing - and even more so now than then - for those who fail to account for the lack of external and internal evidence, and for the parallels that are now much more numerous and close than they were in 1909. (Adolf Harnack, "Hat Jesus gelebt?" in: Aus Wissenschaft und Leben, Zweiter Band, Giessen 1911, pp. 167-175.). Above all, new Buddhist sources, in Sanskrit, have provided numerous literal parallels, i.e. direct loans.

The reason for clinging to the myth of Jesus as a historical person is, I assume, double: First of all, it is not easy to rid oneself of old and inveterate misconceptions. Such struggle not only requires freedom of mind but also personal courage - both are rare at a time where a higher Classical education and civilization with emphasis on human character have been banned from our universities and now are but remnants of brighter days.

Then there is the fear of loss of livelihood. If the story of Jesus is merely a solar myth - then our priesthood will have lost all its credibility. Who can make a living by talking about the Sun?

The edifice of Christianity - in any form it may be - rests on a ground of nonsense neatly summarized in the Apostles' Creed - that the mother of Jesus, who went to hell, was a virgin etc. etc.

If the thesis that Jesus is a mere solar myth is correct - and who is there to rebuke its validity on solid scholarly grounds? - then this must have serious consequences not just for conscientious Christian individuals, but also for a society that considers itself to be Christian in this or that respect.

The Danish church - not unlike other Lutheran or reformed churches - considers itself to be fairly "open and broad, " I am told. But is it "open and broad" enough to give room for the view that Jesus never existed, and for infidels taking that stand?

In Denmark (and elsewhere) we recognize and allow other religions, provided they do not violate certain rules or standards of decency and decorum - reflecting a Classical, and not at all a Christian tradition, I may add. The concept of decency or decorum may not be altogether clear to a modern mind, but no matter how we agree about definitions, it would be hard to leave out honesty and truthfulness from that definition. How can we have decency without honesty?

If, thus, honesty and truthfulness be recognized as natural and essential parts of decency and decorum, it follows, surely, that our professional professors of theology, along with our bishops and our priests find themselves facing a difficult dilemma: Either they must, openly and boldly, step forward to defend their honour and refute the thesis that Jesus be merely a solar myth, or they must, should they choose to remain silent, fear the disgraceful charge that their lack of honesty - not to speak of "Lutheran boldness" - makes them violate the standards of decorum and decency.

In other words: If our professional theologians do not respond and come up with strong arguments against the thesis of Jesus as a solar myth, then they will, day by day, transform the church and Christian society that for centuries have provided them with even more than their daily bread into institutions the nature of which is increasingly infested by dishonesty and lack of decency - until the day of the final and total collapse of the ancient myth."

Christian Lindtner, PhD
November 22nd, 2009

Buddhist and Sanskrit scholar Dr. Christian Lindtner received his PhD in Buddhist Studies from the University of Copenhagen in 1982 and has been studying the ancient Sanskrit and Pali texts for some 30 years.

Quote:
"When the mythological layers of the gospel story are removed, there remains no core to the onion, no “real person” to point to as found in the evemerist position. To put it another way, a composite of 20 people, whether mythical, historical or both, is no one."

- Christ in Egypt, 12

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:54 pm 
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The Mythicist Challenge Petition [Draft]

Category: Human Rights

Region: Global

Target: Educational institutions, governments, parliaments, politicians: local, state, federal, national; media organizations; entertainment producers

Background/Preamble:

I am currently working on creating some sort of formal petition, in collaboration with D.M. Murdock. We are tired of hearing Christian apologists and even some atheists claim: "No REAL scholar questions the existence of Jesus."

How can scholars be considered credible if they fail to ask the most basic questions? We as mythicists notice how academia rigidly adheres to the a priori assumption that Jesus (and other Abrahamic religious characters) existed and work from there. The attempt is rarely made to establish a credible case for the existence of these characters as historical figures first, before proceeding with the assumption that they were real people. It's simply institutionalized bigotry.

We would like academia to be held accountable for the severe lack of consideration for the Mythicist Position. We would like respected, credentialed scholars, both theistic and atheistic, to endorse the petition. We also want relevant organizations and institutions to support it. We are fed-up with the discrimination and ridicule just because we question, based on the merits of the evidence, whether or not characters like Jesus Christ ever existed. We as mythicists feel very strongly that we have a mountain of credible evidence to demonstrate that Jesus is every bit as mythical as Hercules. We have a very strong case when you factor in the failure of theists to substantiate their claims with credible scientific evidence. The evidence and the history is on our side. Faith and euphoria should never be allowed to trump credible evidence that actually exists. We as mythicists are interested in intellectual honesty and scientific accuracy. We leave no stone unturned, so to speak.

I will post a new thread specifically for that topic at some point - when we're ready - with a link here too.

Here is a draft we created. Feedback is welcome:

Quote:
The Mythicist Challenge Petition

Created by FreethoughtNation.com and StellarHousePublishing.com

A) To whom is it directed?

Academia, universities, AAR, SBL, etc., theology and comparative religion courses, theistic and atheistic biblical and New Testament scholars, as well as governments, to acknowledge and recognize the Mythicist Position as a legitimate and valid perspective.

B) Who we are?

We are part of America's non-religious minority, which is nearly 20% of the population - the largest minority and most discriminated against. Rather than being "anti-religion," mythicists are fascinated by religious origins, history and evolution. We find the meanings behind the myths based on natural phenomena to be far more marvelous and colorful than what the dogma and doctrines of religion would lead us to believe. Mythicists base their views on the merits of the evidence founded upon scientific analysis and observation.

C) What is the Mythicist Position?

Quote:
The Mythicist Position "represents the perspective that many gods, goddesses and other heroes and legendary figures said to possess extraordinary and/or supernatural attributes are not "real people" but are in fact mythological characters. Along with this view comes the recognition that many of these figures personify or symbolize natural phenomena, such as the sun, moon, stars, planets, constellations, etc., constituting what is called 'astrotheology.'

As a major example of the mythicist position, various biblical characters such as Adam and Eve, Satan, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David, Solomon and Jesus Christ, among other figures, [may] in reality represent mythological characters along the same lines as the Egyptian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Indian, Greek, Roman and other godmen, who are all presently accepted as myths, rather than historical figures."

- Murdock, D.M. Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection. Seattle: Stellar House Publishing, 2009, p. 12.

Further Reading

What is a Mythicist?

Why I Am a Mythicist

D) What do we want?

    * We want the discrimination and ridicule to stop, simply because we question the credibility of the evidence and existence of major characters in the Abrahamic religious books.

    * We want the Mythicist Position to be considered as a possible alternative by the academic world and to be included in theology and comparative religion courses. In order to do that the mythicist position would have to be taken seriously.

    * We want the Mythicist Position to be included in encyclopedias and dictionaries, same as the terms "Euhemerist/Evemerist," "atheist" and "theist." We feel it is censorship to refuse to allow for a Mythicist Position option to be equally accessible and widely available. The censorship constitutes suppression of an entire view point or theory.

    * We want all people to have easy access to the information concerning the Mythicist Position and astrotheology. We would like to see astrotheology be taken into consideration as a legitimate scientific study - as it is closely related to archaeoastronomy, which has recently become a legitimate department and now includes courses in universities.

New Testament and Biblical scholars are mostly ignorant of the case for mythicism, because a study of it is not any sort of requirement in order to receive a PhD. It needs to be pointed out that scholars do not hesitate to claim that the religions and deities of the ancient Egyptians, Sumerians, Phoenicians, Indians, Greeks, Romans and others are mythical; yet, these same scholars refuse even to consider that the Abrahamic faiths are also largely based on mythology. Instead of honesty and objectivity we get an endless stream of special pleading for Abrahamic religions.

E) Who would be likely candidates to sign this petition?

Believers and non-religious (this means anyone) who feel that raising the question and making scientific inquiry into the subject of whether or not Jesus is a historical character have merit. The book Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ demonstrates a long list of Christian authorities, apologists and evangelicals, as well as New Testament scholars (with an almost all Christian authority bibliography), who admit that:

    "The Gospels are neither histories nor biographies, even within the ancient tolerances for those genres..."
    "The gospels are in fact anonymous..."
    The evidence for Jesus is "scanty and problematic..."
    and "scholars have even gone so far as to hold that the entire Jesus story is a myth."

We believe that such comments by well-respected scholars should serve as a starting point for biblical scholars and others interested in the history of Christianity.

F) Recent examples of discrimination and bigotry

1. Fired for Saying Adam and Eve Mythical? A news report about a professor at a community college in Iowa who claimed he was fired for stating in class that the biblical Adam and Eve were mythical.

2. Here is a recent example of what's wrong in academia still to this day. We have professional archaeologists publicly saying that other archaeologists are "bending science to prove a Biblical heritage" ... with "generous funding, from religious groups"

3. Religion Scholar Resigns After Endorsing Evolution

4. Christian scholar Mike Licona forced out of job for being skeptical

5. Father Tom Brodie removed from office at Dominican Biblical Institute for admitting Jesus never existed in controversial book

So here we go again, go against church doctrine and dogma and you can still lose your job even in 2010. I think it's time for a serious investigation into religious special interest groups and lobbyist influence on academia and government.

G) A brief history of discrimination against mythicists:

The History of Mythicism

We, the undersigned, call on academia, governments and industry to include the Mythicist Position in college, university and seminary classes and courses, as well as in public discourse and expressions, and to stop the discrimination against mythicists and non-believers.

The time has come for the cultural biases and prejudices to end, and the Mythicist Position to be considered as a viable option. Theists have failed in their responsibilities of 'Burden of Proof' to substantiate their claims with credible evidence. Throughout history, mythicists have been discriminated against, their views censored and/or suppressed, while special pleading for unsubstantiated religious claims continue to this day, completely unchallenged. It is time for mythicists to be allowed at least a seat at the table to present their case.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:14 pm 
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Someone on FB posted this old interview of mine in which I discuss being a believing Christian, as well as the mythicist and evemerist positions.

Quote:
Man’s Inhumanity to Man
An Interview with Acharya S

by Storm Fox

...SF: What led you to conclude that Jesus Christ was a purely mythical figure?

AS: For some time I was an "evemerist," which means that I believed there was a historical Jesus but that the supernatural tales associated with him were just fairytales added to his biography by enthusiastic followers. Or, perhaps, he was a yogi in the Eastern tradition who could do some sort of "magic" or siddhis, as these "tricks" are called in India. Because I had been studying Eastern religions intensely at the time, in my late 20's, the yogi perspective was the last I held before I came to the conclusion that Jesus Christ, as depicted in the biblical, gospel tale, was a myth through and through. I began to get an inkling of the "Mythicist School," as it is called, about that time. My recollection is that a book virtually jumped off the shelf and set me on the path: It was Forgery in Christianity by Joseph Wheless. From there, as they say, the rest is history - or mythology, as the case may be. I followed Wheless's clues and sources, and discovered a whole school of thought - a very intelligent and profound school of thought that essentially verified nagging doubts I'd had since I first heard about Jesus Christ. With my background in mythology, it was not very difficult to see through the historical pretense associated with Christianity. If one set of beliefs with incredible supernatural events is easily regarded as mythology, why not another?

SF: The arguments you give for mythicism in your books and articles are very powerful, and I find the astrotheological aspects of your books and articles to be especially fascinating. I'm curious as to when and under what circumstances you became aware of these patterns in myths and how ubiquitous they are.

AS: Naturally, the more time one spends on a subject the more one learns. I suppose that as I came to understand the awe with which the ancients viewed the cosmos, the natural world, the earth in general, I had "aha!" moments or epiphanies in connecting the gods with the planetary bodies and constellations, etc. In reality, it didn't take much, because I have always been awed by nature and spent most of my childhood romping and splashing through the woods, fields, streams and lakes. I imagine that the night sky appears a most amazing sight to anyone sitting under it away from an urban environment. The sun, of course, is a major reason we exist. Knowing these facts, it becomes quite comprehensible why the ancients - as well as a significant portion of the world to this day - would revere these natural objects and forces, attributing divine qualities to them. These aspects of the natural world are found globally, which is why they are ubiquitous in human mythologies. In the end, it all makes sense.

SF: There has been little written from the mythicist perspective in the past few decades, but at various periods in the past, there was a wealth of mythicist writing and research. To what social forces do you attribute this?

AS: At the end of the 18th century in Europe there seemed to be a shift in consciousness, away from the repressive mind-control of the Church, whether Protestant or Catholic. Some of this change appears to have come from the expansion of the British into India. I suppose people were utterly sick of the atrocities committed by Christian authorities, and no doubt the insidious mind-control and censorship had taken its toll on the erudite and intelligentsia. The 19th century experienced an explosion in brilliant thinking in countless subjects, not just religion and philosophy. The writing of the era - again, in numerous subjects - was superb, especially compared to that of today. In fact, one thing that has not improved with time and technology is the quality of writing. In the English language, little compares to what was produced during the 19th century.

The 20th century, on the other hand, experienced a profound dumbing-down, especially in the areas of freethought, philosophy and religion. There are many social forces I would attribute to this frightening and depressing dumbing-down of the masses. For sure, much of it has been deliberate, in order that the political and religious status quo could be maintained. After all, we can't have people thinking for themselves, can we? Religion and politics have been the main tools used to control the masses for the benefit of the elite. What we saw during the 18th and 19th centuries were members of the elite themselves coming forward and forcefully speaking the truth. I will say that, because of the Internet, many people are becoming more politically savvy - possibly more than before. And, perhaps, we will see an increase in people thinking for themselves about the important matters of religion and philosophy. They simply must, or the mass, herd mentality will destroy this planet....

SF: You seem to rail against evemerism about as strongly as you do against literalist interpretations of the Bible. What trouble do you think evemerism causes?

AS: Again, evemerism is the perspective that, behind all the fabulous fairytales, there was a "real person" named Jesus who lived about the same time as depicted in the gospel tale. But, according to evemerism, he didn't do much, because if you take away all the fairytales there isn't much left - at least nothing impressive. Some shaggy guy wearing a robe wandering around spouting platitudes and, maybe, doing a few parlor tricks. Gee, like that's never happened before - or since! Does anyone honestly believe that the Romans would overthrow their entire culture, with all its gods, including the Caesar himself, in order to worship a ragamuffin magician from the reviled backwaters of the Roman Empire? It's just incredible! No self-respecting, elitist Roman would consider the thought for a second. He would have laughed his head off at the very notion. There had to be some highly powerful motivation for the Romans to acquiesce to this fable that the God of the cosmos had appeared - completely unbeknownst to them - decades before in the outback, as a member of one of the most despised races of the empire.

The addition of fairytales would hardly have been enough to impress the Romans, even if there really had been "some guy there," as is believed within evemerism. Evemerism simply doesn't go far enough in an honest investigation. It's a cop-out by people who want to appear somewhat intelligent - in other words, not entirely gullible - but who haven't really studied the issue to know that there is no evidence of this wandering Jewish guru who stood out not because of any magic tricks but because of profound or revolutionary ideas and statements. None of these "profound statements" is original - much more wisdom can be found in the more ancient Egyptian and Indian texts. I find this concept irritating as well because, while this purported "groovy guru" gets all the attention - and much sympathy because of his supposed suffering - countless real people the world over have demonstrated breathtaking brilliance and suffered much more, yet have received no attention whatsoever.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:13 am 
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This is a good thread, and it was kind of Tat to post my evemerist comments. Until a few years ago, I regarded the mythicist position as flatly ridiculous. In an argument at booktalk.org, I asked how Christ, who is the most quoted person in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, could possibly be fictional. This argument from tradition and authority seemed to me adequate to rebut mythicism, in that the scale of deception required for mythicism to be true seemed simply inconceivable.

However, I had not considered the breathtaking scale of the fraud in the perpetration of the gospel fiction. Reading the evidence, or more to the point the total lack of evidence for a historical Jesus, I now accept that the mythicist position is the most probable factual account. Even so, as a church goer, I often find it simply impossible to confront believers with this material. The total destruction of people's framework for salvation is not a matter to be raised lightly. The idea that our planet has an actual link to divine truth through the incarnate Christ, as 'the true vine' of John 15 etc, is an underlying assumption of Christian hope, and questioning it seems to produce despair.

One reason why mythicism elicits such hostility can be seen from the Bible, 1 John 4, which says: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist." Here we see the scale of propaganda and emotional blackmail inherent in this question of the existence of Jesus. The Bible teaches in simple explicit terms that mythicists are the spirit of the antichrist. Confronting such entrenched and loaded views, which have the full institutional and symbolic weight of dogmatic faith, is bound to be a lonely and difficult job. No wonder the Jesus Seminar has displayed such spineless cowardice. Hostility towards ‘heresy’ sits very close to the skin in our supposedly liberal world.

The context of early Christianity was that Roman imperialism was a rampant power, heedless of the rights of the marginal. The scale of resentment among the poor was immense. As I see it, the early church believed they had to confront the Empire with a fictional myth of great simplicity, a proto-socialist idea in which the last are first, in which traditional mythic culture could be upended through a doctrine of incarnation. Little did they know what a monster their small deceptions would turn into, with the virgin birth, the rock of Peter and the line 'no one comes to the father but by me' laying the ground for a new institution that would rival Rome for evil. These ideas seemed to the founders to be good, but in the unscrupulous hands of the church they created the dark ages.

And yet, despite the lack of evidence for a historical Jesus, I cling to an evemerist view that a single astrotheological genius stands as the hidden originator of Christianity. Why? Partly for me it is an emotional attraction to the myth of the hero as saviour. Whether Frodo Baggins in The Lord of the Rings, Neo in The Matrix or Luke Skywalker in Star Wars, there is a pervasive story that the path of planetary salvation hangs by the most slender of threads, but that the continuity of that thread is essential, and if it is cut then evil will triumph. So Jesus is the slender thread of connection to ultimate reality, and the idea of committees of fiction authors as the source of the gospels seems to destroy all the emotional power of the cosmology and ethics of the Bible, whether interpreted as mainstream orthodoxy or as an astrotheological mythic paradigm.

Further to the emotional myth of the true vine, this question of the existence of Christ turns on what we mean by salvation. Clearly, traditional concepts of heaven and afterlife are obsolete. We are not ‘saved’ by belief, but by knowledge. So what do we know about the Bible? As Tat Tvam Asi and I have discussed at some length, the whole cosmology of the Bible can be read as a code for precession of the equinox, from Adam as the founder of the Age of Taurus, Abraham and Moses as founders of the Age of Aries, Jesus and Paul as founders of the Age of Pisces, and the Second Coming of Christ as marking the dawn of the Age of Aquarius. If planetary salvation now hinges on a paradigm shift from a Piscean framework of belief to an Aquarian consciousness grounded in scientific knowledge, then the question of how this precessional framework found its way into the Bible itself deserves close attention.

Fundamental ideas in the Bible include the Great Year as the Holy City, the loaves and fishes as the fecundity of the new stellar axis of Virgo and Pisces, and the recognition of the entry of the sun into Pisces at the equinox as the turning point of time between the Ages and the Great Years, marking the alpha-omega point of the first and last. If an individual formulated these ideas at the supposed time of Jesus, then that person cracked the messianic secret of time. This stellar paradigm has a compelling empirical logic that marks the slow shift of the zeitgeist. While it was hidden from view in the Bible because of the old Zionist prejudice against the fatalism they saw in star worship, a rudimentary scratching of the surface will reveal the stellar code, if you know what to look for.

So, the question is who put the stellar code in the Bible? The mythicist view is that secret cabals were responsible. I would rather say that any such committees are always driven by the vision of a leader. The Gospel authors were looking for a framework of belief that could mobilise popular opinion against Rome. They surrounded the precessional ideas with a fictional narrative suitable for the mass audience. We cannot know if these precessional ideas were common currency within a secret society, or if indeed they were inspired by a single person of genius. My disposition is to believe the latter, the brilliant one, even though the evidence may sit more with the former, the secret cabal. As the sun precessed into Pisces at the time of Christ, my view is that someone put together what was happening into a cosmic vision, including the need for a further 2000 years of turmoil before nature and spirit could be reunited. This vision is the evemeral seed of Christianity, and its author, by virtue of seeing the cosmic framework of human salvation, is Jesus Christ, the anointed saviour.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:30 am 
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To my knowledge, there isn't very much we can say to negate this idea. We can't say absolutely that a spiritual leader didn't start this astrotheological movement. What we can say is that there's no credible evidence for it. We can also say that there is credible evidence that Jesus life and sayings are astrotheological mystery based and mythological in that way. The burden of evidence rests on those making the claim that this obviously mythological figure is based on an actual historical person. The same applies for the Buddha or whoever else. The burden of proof is on those claiming the historicity.

What you've done here is interesting because your fellow church members can't really charge you with the "anti-christ" claim because you hold to a flesh and blood Jesus. That is clever. But what the old "anti-christ" claim tends to suggest is that even that far back in time there was an issue over whether or not Jesus was purely mythical or historical. The debate was around from the beginning. We see it as the case of a non-historical savior figure being worked into an historical person whose life was back dated to what was already a remote period of the past. Who could challenge it? They simply placed his life back to the beginning of the Common Era and contradicted one another tremendously in the process. It doesn't harmonize or run very smoothly at all. It looks to me like the case of people trying to take a mythological legend and present it to people as concrete historical fact. As people objected to this fraud the religious authorities quickly called the objectors "anti-christ" and railed against them. It seems like evidence of a time of change where those pushing the fraud went to the top and enforced their ideas on the whole of society as time went on.

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

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Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:53 pm 
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Thanks Tat. I have a different view as to why the astrotheology in the Bible is hidden in secret code. The process of cobbling together an acceptable messianic story involved compromise between the Judaic tradition and other mythic faiths. The seers of Babylon, Egypt and Greece saw the mythic identity between planets and Gods as the obvious framework for 're-binding' (re-ligere) humanity and the cosmos. However, the Old Testament saw things very differently. Monotheism, throughout the Abrahamic faiths of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, has strongly insisted that God is beyond the natural universe, hence the prohibition on icons in the second of the Ten Commandments and in Islam. So, as the myths mashed to make Christ, the mystery adherents wanted to include information on precession, but the Abrahamists, exploiting the worry about making secrets public, but motivated by iconoclasm, were able to remove any explicit astromythic reference, much as the bigoted Wikipedia editors do today. However, because this star message was central to the inspiring idea of salvation, grounded in the precessional observation of the nature of time, the truth was not totally suppressed but merely hidden as code.

The claim that nature and spirit are separate is at the core of the fall. The point of the Abrahamic iconoclastic doctrine is that fallen people will get it wrong if they try to make an image of God. However, as our planet moves now into an 'ascending' path, the reason for this prohibition becomes steadily more obsolete and harmful. If we consider that the eternal and infinite one is reflected in the cosmos that we can see, then we can consider precession as like a demiurge, a mirror of God that shows us the path of divine evolution. This idea is foreshadowed by Paul in Romans 1: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:00 pm 
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The banning of graven images is an interesting exploration indeed. The God is beyond all form and all image.

As of the last descending Great Year we find the idea of God and Man falling apart in separation. That simply reflects the descending Yuga where spiritual enlightenment is gradually lost like the light of the sun is gradually lost to the long nights of winter. But, in the case of the sun the light overcomes the gradual fall and begins to rise up again and so too is spiritual enlightenment supposed to rise up again bringing God and Man back together once again.

As of the beginning of the Common Era religious traditions have sprung up into the environment of the ascending Great Year and so understanding that the transcendent source, end, and supporting ground of all life and being is immanent in all things seems well in order. The common people should become more capable of understanding the concept as knowledge increases and spiritual enlightenment is on the rise once again.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made..."

The source of creation can be seen through creation because it's not separate from the creation, rather it's the supporting ground of it all. We're talking about the energy of existence as the source of all life. I can see how this was an issue among religious initiates as we were coming into the Common Era. The mystery school educated Jews and Samaritans of the first few centuries had both the history of Judaism and the secret knowledge of the high Gentile cultures to juggle in their minds. It seems to me that they wanted to reconcile the two. So we see Jesus as a heroic character being made to bring in the mystical realization of the high cultures into a Jewish context.

They have him claiming to be God on earth in John 10:30 and then point back to Psalms in order to substantiate the claim were God is telling the people that they are gods. So the writer reasons, how can you call you accuse someone of blasphemy for claiming to be God when God said you are gods? What gives this all away is that in the verse in Psalms the writer is referring to a dialogue between El Elyon and the sons of El, not the later monotheistic Yahweh and the people of Israel. El is telling the other "gods" of the pre-monotheistic pantheon that they are Elohim (gods). They really were "gods" of the former Elohim pantheon and not the people of Israel being called "gods" as Jesus is suggesting to the authorities in the storyline. The word for "gods" used in my Hebrew to English translated bible is "Elohim". By the beginning of the Common Era the writer didn't realize that and simply saw what he considered as "God" calling the people of Israel "gods" and used this verse in an attempt to bring the mystical realization of enlightenment into a Jewish based context.

They've taken the idea of spiritual enlightenment, the mystical / religious function, and applied it to their own tradition. The problem is that they made a mistake and actually outlined a dirty little secret about the former polytheistic roots of Judaism by calling attention to the verse in Psalms. I suppose that if we attribute this saying to an historical Jesus then he was the one who made the mistake while trying to push the mystical realization on the Jewish people. I tend to think that there was no historical Jesus and the mistake was made by the priesthood who were working towards trying to bring change to Judaism after the Great Year had turned over and getting closer to God once again goes along with the astrological lore of the ascending Great Year. Most Jews didn't buy it. Eventually they were persecuted by the Christians for not buying into it...

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:56 pm 
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Very interesting - and heady - discussion going on here. You two really enjoy the deep conversations. Thanks for bringing them to our little community here! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:42 am 
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Acharya wrote:
Very interesting - and heady - discussion going on here. You two really enjoy the deep conversations. Thanks for bringing them to our little community here! :mrgreen:

Hi Acharya, thank you for your kind words of welcome. In the little experience I’ve had with the internet, Tat Tvam Asi is the only person I have come across who has understood my point of view, so I have found the conversations here with him very valuable. I have found your books extremely informative. While your site may be little in terms of traffic I think it is big in terms of vision and ideas. From little things big things grow. :)

Back to our discussion, the ‘no graven images’ commandment is highly relevant to the question of mythicism versus evemerism. This command frames deeply held assumptions about the nature of reality and religion, and helps to explain why a ‘Cosmic Christ’ would have been ignored, misunderstood and persecuted, while still providing the intellectual seed for the big ideas of Christian faith.

Through history, people have imagined Jesus according to their own value framework. In this spirit I am suggesting a value frame which provides a context for the Biblical theory of time against the precession of the equinox – Christ as the literal alpha and omega of the cosmos. This starting point can help to formulate a vision of Christian faith that is acceptable to modern times, showing how the Biblical story of Christ can offer salvation in a way that is compatible with modern empirical understanding.

Mythicism is a valuable empirical lens on the Bible, so should be a starting point for Biblical studies. However, I argue that mythicism has a philosophical weakness in that its emphasis on empiricism loses sight of the biblical vision of salvation, whereas both evidence and vision are essential.

The concept of salvation has been so badly corrupted by the idea of personal afterlife that the general modern secular tendency is to see salvation as entirely meaningless. Who cares if you are “saved” if it just means that fundamentalists hold the delusory view that adherence to doctrinal formulas means they think they will live for ever in a heaven which in fact does not exist? The secular view that we do not need salvation opens a path to mythicism as a form of empirical reduction of the Bible.

The rational scientific argument of mythicism is that once we have exposed the fraud of the church we have the whole story. However, my view is that mythicism is a prolegomena, a preparation, clearing the way for real interpretation to begin of what the Bible is actually saying about human salvation. To enter that theological terrain, we have to engage with the Christological question of what it might mean that a messianic saviour is a point of contact between human life and ultimate truth.

If there actually was an astrotheological genius at the time of Christ who sought to explain to people the precessional structure of time, set against the old Vedic vision of the cycle of the Yugas from the Golden Age to the Iron Age and back, what do you think would have been the response? The Bible gives a clue in the image of the suffering servant from Isaiah, with the prediction that the messiah would be rejected and despised. Similarly, the psalmist says the stone the builders rejected would be head of the corner. The Gospels present Jesus as repeating both these stories to explain his mission. But this nobody who we call Jesus Christ also claims, as I read him, that the structure of time is written in the stars, and that the stellar vision shows the promise of a slow path towards universal abundance. The parable of the loaves and fishes, told five times in the Gospels, can be read as saying that the movement of the sun into the Virgo-Pisces precessional axis was the source of creation from nothing. As per the cornerstone claim, if Jesus really did present an astrotheological vision, the likely response from the powers that be would have been blank incomprehension and derision. The divinization of nature in this reading of the loaves and fishes parable could well have been seen in itself as grounds for execution.

The stellar interpretation of the gospels provides a coherent way to understand Christian paradoxes such as ‘the last shall be first’. In terms of the Vedic Yuga, if Jesus was the representative of the Golden Age in the midst of the Iron Age, then his message of salvation could hardly have lived up to the Old Testament hopes of a warrior king. Instead of accepting Iron Age values of material conquest, the message of Christ was more about an eventual return to a harmony between spirit and nature, valuing the meek and the peacemakers who were marginalized by the dominant martial culture.

Precession of the equinox presents a complex and obscure message of the cosmic unity of nature and spirit. The likely response of Jewish authorities to such a message would have been to say it is star worship and immediately to compare it to Ba’al worship, condemned in the Old Testament for the making of graven images. In the eyes of the orthodox Jews, such ‘idolatry’ committed blasphemy by locating the transcendent divine in material objects. No matter that Jesus may have objected that the stars are pointers to an infinite beyond, the intolerant orthodoxy would have seen such a claim as far too close to an animist divinizing of nature, a graven image prohibited by the second commandment. Such is the nature of authoritarian repression of dissent.

As alpha and omega, the beginning and end, Jesus the Lamb of God was the end of the Age of Aries the Ram, while Christ the fisher of men was the start of the Age of Pisces the Fishes. Empirically, the equinox precessed across the first fish of Pisces in 11 AD. This empirical cosmic correlation is so obvious that the denial of it by orthodox faith stands as gross and willful blindness, a point repeatedly made by Jesus himself in the Gospels in comments such as those about the blind leading the blind.

This turning point of the Ages at the time of Christ, from the last Age of the previous Great Year to the first Age of the new Great Year, is only part of the big story. We can say that Jesus represents enlightenment in the midst of ignorance, and so stands as the avatar, not only of the Age of Pisces, but of the entire eternal cycle of the logos, the perpetual cosmic rhythm of earth’s Great Year. As a voice from the other side of the natural Vedic cycle, the Golden Age, Jesus points our fallen world on a 12,000 year upward path towards healing of the earth.

In this natural context the Hebrew metaphorical ‘seven days of creation’ are not just days but millennia. These ‘days’ have an elegant fit as the bottom 7 hours of the Vedic 24 hours of the Day of Brahma, understood as the Great Year, and with the 3.5 ‘times’ or Ages of the tribulation of the apocalypse. In accordance with this Biblical vision, 1000 years per day as per 2 Peter 3:8, the planet is now approaching the end of the sixth day, and the beginning of the Sabbath day of healing and rest, marked by the cosmic cusp of the transition from the Age of Pisces to the Age of Aquarius in about 2150 AD. The cosmic conflict involved in this shift of Ages is immense, as the old paradigm of separation of nature and spirit insists on dominion and control, even while sending the planet towards destruction. A new encompassing cosmic vision is needed to bring forth the inner message of salvation in the gospels as a story that is compatible with modern science while going beyond the framework of evidential proof into a vision of unity and reconciliation.

If Jesus presented these visionary claims and was duly ignored or repressed by conformist dullards, the likely wash-up would have been that this act of repression was seen as wrong, like the execution of Socrates, and played on the conscience of Israel. We can see the seed messages of the gospels - the alpha and omega, the loaves and fishes, the holy city - as empirical stellar claims about the structure of time. These stories of natural theology were converted into parables and stripped of their stellar meaning in order to force the message of the Piscean messiah into the procrustean bed of Abrahamic faith.

The German existential philosopher Martin Heidegger famously said ‘only a God can save us’. This statement reflects a deep wisdom about the parlous condition of human intelligence, that a merely scientific understanding of myth is not sufficient to produce transformation. The real need is for a symbolic entry into myth to remember the meaning of being, with Jesus Christ at the centre of the vision of the reconciliation of humanity and nature.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:54 am 
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It would be nice to hear Acharya's view, but I can say that if many Christians were drawn to your interpretation of Christ as a man trying to express an astrotheological vision of Pisces as the saving age - the first age of the Great Year where the descending half of precession stops and the ascending half starts - it would create a situation where people know, understand, and embrace the fact that the Bible is actually formatted around the passage of world ages. Instead of trying to fight hard to deny it they would embrace it. To me that speaks of a step in the right direction for humanity. I don't know what you would call yourselves but it would something along the lines of astrotheological evemerists I suppose.

The only difference here is that most mythicists wouldn't see the point in believing that an historical Jesus preached astrotheology. If we understand the astrotheology of the Bible and know what the verses mean in terms of upward and downward trends being associated with ideas of a fall and redemption of humanity, well then we understand the Bible and its message. Its very speculative and rests on the legitimacy of precession having an empirical effect on society. In the event that precession doesn't really have an effect on society then the Bible writers ideas about rising and falling and the age of Pisces literally saving the world from it's descent is just plain wrong and can be added to the list of other things that the Bible writers were wrong about. You do understand this issue don't you Robert? It's interesting to consider the possibility that they were correct about the rising and falling, and I've been into that sort of research for years now, but I also understand that it could be just as wrong as anything else Cruttenden and West have been wrong about. I don't think that we know for sure at this point.

I can certainly say that we as mythicists don't need to pray to - or worship - a two thousand year old man long dead decaying in the ground somewhere in the near east who pointed out that the age of Pisces is conceptually the turning point of the Vedic and Greek cyclic models according to the way the ancient mystery schools believed. If mythicists understand that the ancients believed that we've crossed the threshold of descending time and are now on an upward trend according to the precessional models, then what exactly are we missing in reality? The only thing we're missing is a belief in the literal existence of the man used in the storyline to present these astrotheological and mystical concepts. The physical man is not the main point of the story, rather what the physical man is trying to point out about the earths precession is the main point of the story. That's the concept of the salvation of the world from darkness - the darkest ages of the Great Year. If we get that, then we get it. We understand the message of salvation. It rests on speculation about the effects of the precession of the equinoxes on the human mind.

It would seem that an astrotheological evemerist is to mythicism what a panentheist is to pantheism - a person who likes the idea but isn't willing to go all the way with it. You know the story is mythical with it's borrowed motifs and supernatural imagery, yet you're not willing to go all the way and conclude that the main character of the story is a mythical literary creation. I think that that's fine because it may well appeal to a lot of people who are unwilling to accept mythicism, yet understand that the bible is quite full of mythology. It breaks down a divide between us and the theists in terms of ending the argument over whether or not the Bible is speaking in terms of astrotheology. The only thing is that astrotheological evemerists shouldn't become hostile towards mythicists over our not wanting to get in bed with the idea that a real person is behind the myth. To charge us with 'missing something' could cause people to want to hold ill feeling towards us in the way that theists hold ill feelings towards atheists over their lack of God belief. We don't necessarily have a lack of God belief at all - many of us have our own personal beliefs about God and what God means - but we do have a lack of belief in terms of an historical Jesus. All we want is something in the way of hard evidence that shows that a real man early in the first century started the movement. If that comes then we'll all have to take an astrotheological evemerist position. We'll just have to see how history unfolds and what sort of evidence presents itself as time goes on.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:30 pm 
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Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
It would be nice to hear Acharya's view, but I can say that if many Christians were drawn to your interpretation of Christ as a man trying to express an astrotheological vision of Pisces as the saving age - the first age of the Great Year where the descending half of precession stops and the ascending half starts - it would create a situation where people know, understand, and embrace the fact that the Bible is actually formatted around the passage of world ages. Instead of trying to fight hard to deny it they would embrace it. To me that speaks of a step in the right direction for humanity. I don't know what you would call yourselves but it would something along the lines of astrotheological evemerists I suppose.
My experience is that the effort to even discuss this idea encounters a deep and irrational emotional blockage. I am bringing together science, religion and astrology, three mutually hostile intellectual and cultural traditions. Adherents of each of these traditions tend to regard the other two with some contempt. My claim that the Biblical vision of salvation involves the synthesis of these three traditions is an inter-disciplinary approach that has no easy resting place - like the new wine that cannot go into old bottles.
Quote:

The only difference here is that most mythicists wouldn't see the point in believing that an historical Jesus preached astrotheology. If we understand the astrotheology of the Bible and know what the verses mean in terms of upward and downward trends being associated with ideas of a fall and redemption of humanity, well then we understand the Bible and its message. Its very speculative and rests on the legitimacy of precession having an empirical effect on society. In the event that precession doesn't really have an effect on society then the Bible writers ideas about rising and falling and the age of Pisces literally saving the world from it's descent is just plain wrong and can be added to the list of other things that the Bible writers were wrong about. You do understand this issue don't you Robert? It's interesting to consider the possibility that they were correct about the rising and falling, and I've been into that sort of research for years now, but I also understand that it could be just as wrong as anything else Cruttenden and West have been wrong about. I don't think that we know for sure at this point.
I argue that the mathematical vision of the Great Year as a fractal inversion of the annual cycle is entirely compatible with modern scientific knowledge. This is not the case for Walter Cruttenden’s binary star theory, which conflicts with physics. You have introduced me to the idea of the Vedic Yuga as a theory of precession, and I agree it is elegant and compelling. My view of the natural myth of the Great Year, embedded in the real permanent cyclic rhythm of the earth, focuses on the Great Year as a long term framework for western tropical astrology. This astrological cosmology is also the clear basis of Biblical ideas such as the holy city and the alpha and omega. It is not ‘plain wrong’ in the way the binary sun theory is, but does face the problem that if it has a real effect then this effect is so weak as to be barely detectable. We see it in the ancient intuition of the 60-base clock, which matches natural cosmic rhythms. As well, the Great Year provides what chaos theory calls the ‘initial conditions’ for time, so our sensitivity to these initial conditions can be modelled like the famous butterfly effect, a tiny cause having massive effects.
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I can certainly say that we as mythicists don't need to pray to - or worship - a two thousand year old man long dead decaying in the ground somewhere in the near east who pointed out that the age of Pisces is conceptually the turning point of the Vedic and Greek cyclic models according to the way the ancient mystery schools believed. If mythicists understand that the ancients believed that we've crossed the threshold of descending time and are now on an upward trend according to the precessional models, then what exactly are we missing in reality? The only thing we're missing is a belief in the literal existence of the man used in the storyline to present these astrotheological and mystical concepts. The physical man is not the main point of the story, rather what the physical man is trying to point out about the earth’s precession is the main point of the story. That's the concept of the salvation of the world from darkness - the darkest ages of the Great Year. If we get that, then we get it. We understand the message of salvation. It rests on speculation about the effects of the precession of the equinoxes on the human mind.
I would suggest this ‘message of salvation’ has barely begun to be discussed or understood. To my knowledge there are no books that set out this vision of time with any clarity. Astrologers such as Robert Hand and Alan Oken make a start, but there is a whole theological dimension of investigation into the intuitive basis of Biblical scholarship that is fertile ground for study. For example, I’ve read books such as Oscar Cullman’s Christ and Time, or Emil Brunner’s Our Faith with this precessional cosmology in view. These philosophical theologians present an argument about Christian salvation that is basically compatible with science, but to my reading they are just missing the astral key. The same can be said for Martin Heidegger’s Being and Time. I haven’t read The Holy Science by Sri Yukteswar, but I expect it provides useful basis for commentary on how the Yuga matches the tropical signs, although his endorsement of the binary theory is a complete red herring.
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It would seem that an astrotheological evemerist is to mythicism what a panentheist is to pantheism - a person who likes the idea but isn't willing to go all the way with it. You know the story is mythical with its borrowed motifs and supernatural imagery, yet you're not willing to go all the way and conclude that the main character of the story is a mythical literary creation.
I’m not sure this comparison really works. My impression is that panentheism is the doctrine of orthodox Christianity, and is totally hostile to the pantheist idea that divinity is a function of nature. I agree with you that astrotheology must be grounded in mythicism, as we need to clear away the junk (tares?) of superstitious traditional rubbish before we can even begin a rational dialogue about what the Bible really has to say. Your description of mythicism as ‘going all the way’ seems to me to pre-empt the debate. Mythicism applies the paradigm of modern empiricism to Biblical studies, grounded in Ockham’s Razor as the foundation of the atheist rejection of unnecessary postulation of imaginary entities. I’m re-reading The Passion of the Western Mind by Richard Tarnas, and he presents an interesting argument about paradigm shift from empiricism towards a mystical cosmic participation. The point being that mythicism remains within the modern scientific framework of evidence as the criterion for judgment. Evidence is a necessary foundation, but it has to point towards a higher wisdom about how we as humans participate in a cosmic mystery.
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I think that that's fine because it may well appeal to a lot of people who are unwilling to accept mythicism, yet understand that the bible is quite full of mythology. It breaks down a divide between us and the theists in terms of ending the argument over whether or not the Bible is speaking in terms of astrotheology. The only thing is that astrotheological evemerists shouldn't become hostile towards mythicists over our not wanting to get in bed with the idea that a real person is behind the myth. To charge us with 'missing something' could cause people to want to hold ill feeling towards us in the way that theists hold ill feelings towards atheists over their lack of God belief. We don't necessarily have a lack of God belief at all - many of us have our own personal beliefs about God and what God means - but we do have a lack of belief in terms of an historical Jesus. All we want is something in the way of hard evidence that shows that a real man early in the first century started the movement. If that comes then we'll all have to take an astrotheological evemerist position. We'll just have to see how history unfolds and what sort of evidence presents itself as time goes on.
This is all very useful commentary. However, the comparison with the debate against fundamentalism misses the mark in my opinion. An astral reading of the Bible is such a comprehensive transformation of the existing picture that it can only proceed on the basis of respect for those like Acharya who have done the rigorous scholarly work to assess the evidence. Mythicism gives us a platform for debate about philosophy. Those who seek to sit on the shoulders of giants are in alliance with the giants, taking their vision further, not denying the truth of what the giants see.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Well, I'm glad you found each other - you are definitely in a different realm from most.

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While your site may be little in terms of traffic I think it is big in terms of vision and ideas. From little things big things grow. :)

Thanks! Actually, it depends on the site. This forum gets more traffic than is revealed by the number of posts. But the main FTN site itself has been doing very well, sitting in the top 70,000-50,000 in the U.S. on Alexa for several weeks now.

My old site Truth Be Known used to do very well in the Google search results, until Google beat the crap out of it. Now it's been released from prison, but it's still somewhat debilitated. :x

Anyway, carry on!

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