Freethought Nation

Does God enjoy evil?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ephesians 3:8-10
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:15-17
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

God thus seems to have created evil, as He created all concepts, for his pleasure, including evil.

How does God get pleasure from evil and is He allowing it to happen?

Hell is demonstrably an immoral and evil construct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZM3FXlLMug

Does God get pleasure from it’s existence?

Man has laws against men allowing evil to happen when they have a way to prevent it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_(criminal_law)#Some_offences_require_acts

Does that mean that man is more moral than God?

Regards
DL

Satan. Created by God perfect and good or evil?

God created sin, evil and iniquity along with all things.

Ephesians 3:8-10
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

.Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Ezekiel 28:15 (King James Version)
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

-------------------------

There seems to be something wrong with the logic of these verses.

Was God surprised to find what He had created?

We are told that perfection begets perfection in a never ending line in Math 7 18, yet imperfection in the form of iniquity surfaced in Satan. It must have been put there by God Himself if Eph 3 8 is to be believed.

God is said to have somehow found it but as the creator of all things, He must have created it and placed it within Satan. Presumably to surface and have God find it. It could not have been lost to God so why the Bible uses the word found is perplexing.

We have to believe then that Satan was created exactly as he was meant to be. Perfect as God is only capable of, yet, having evil, sin and iniquity as part of his perfection.

If so, it seems strange that God is later said in scripture to cast Satan into hell.

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking):Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

If God gave Satan his nature and Satan followed His God given nature, as he must, then why would God curse His perfect creation seeing as how perfection cannot change to imperfection?
If it can and God is also perfect then that would mean that God could also turn to imperfection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHj0dtSwxqQ

For either God or Satan.

Can you shed some light on this issue?

You should know that I do not have much of a problem with the above because I think more as the Hebrews and Jews think. That being that Satan was never evil and was more of God’s Loyal opposition and that Genesis was not the fall of man but man’s ascension to having a moral sense that comes with the knowledge of good and evil.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm

Regards
DL

What does an omnipotent God need with a hell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ

Main Entry: 1om·nip·o·tent 
1 often capitalized : almighty 1
2 : having virtually unlimited authority or influence <an omnipotent ruler>

A loving God, with unlimited influence, at judgment time, would have no trouble influencing a soul to believe and repent.
That would make the following quote true.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God is somehow not able to change the attitude or ideas of the soul, the reason for punishment, then to sent it to eternal torture would serve no purpose and that would mean that punishment would be immoral and no moral God would ever do so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZM3FXlLMug

For those who believe in everlasting punishment I would ask.

What does an omnipotent God need with a hell?

Regards
DL

As earlier "omnipotence" discussions, I see the real issue as people and their use of words and concepts without having any specific definition or understanding of them.

Your posts show many logical fallacies accepted by people without questions purely supported by faith alone.

I see some defense of hell / heaven concept with argument of humans being to limited to understand purpose and actions of the omnipotent "God". It is a matter of accepting, and not about questioning what humanity lacks capacity to understand. Another argument is that to have free will, freedom of choice, different outcomes must be present. A choice between two options with same result is no choice at all.

But...

I can easily tear down my own arguments, so I struggle to take position of defense even if just as a challenge for the mind.

Omnipotence is ability to give understanding, and limitations of a perfect creation is a contradiction. Free will and freedom of choice given by omnipotent ruler is also a contradiction. Choices and will is only free because the omnipotent "God", and as stated earlier by the word of this omnipotent "God" - The Lord giveth and the Lord hath taken away.

Heaven/Hell concept also introduce the motivation of actions depending on punishment/reward. This creates conditional actions, and paradox of both "good" and "bad" actions resulting in sin. In fact only those who do not believe in a reward or punishment for their actions can perform unconditional and "pure" actions, assuring a place in a heaven one are not allowed to enter because of not believing.

Hell exists in one aspect nonetheless, as a prison of the mind.

There is a Norwegian "dark" comedy that foreign critics interpret very differently as a depiction of some kind of hell, or a depiction of some kind of hell. What they forget is that our duality by nature contradicts both concepts as one being different from other. Perhaps you can tell me what this movie trailer depicts?

How sad for people created in His image.
Strange that A & E could be as Gods, knowing good and evil, but you are too limited to understand and cannot do the same.

I think you can.

To know if hell is a moral construct, just answer this simple question truthfully.

Is it good justice that a sinner can only sin for 120 years and then must suffer punishment and torture for 1200000000000000000000000+ years?

Regards
DL

He he... I saw this could be confusing, as I wondered when I saw that quote myself. It was directed at your biblical quotes

Not quite an answer to my last post.

Not going to try it are you?

Let's up the anti.

To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these
simple question for yourself.

Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 years?

Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?
This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.

Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?
Punishment is usually only given to change attitude and cause the sinner to repent.

If you answered no to the last, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for not possible good result or purpose?

Is hell moral or not?

Regards
DL

I really gave this a try.

I ended up thinking about hell as the complete awareness and understanding of actions,events,issues regarded as sin. You know the "what have I done" feeling that physically even give a strange sense of pain even in your body.

But this could not be a constant, as time converts it to norm. Also true repentance can not be result of punishment, as it makes it conditional.

Heaven and hell is the major logical fallacy. It represents idea of the conditional of what should be unconditional, creating a paradox.
Believe me, I tried hard, but failed

I will settle for that. Thanks.

Regards
DL

God’s love of evils is in naming them so.

God fancies Himself the Great Law Maker. A Law Maker must of course make laws.
The O T would also indicate that He is the Great Law Breaker. But that aside.
God’s law then determines what the moral evils are.

The Law Maker determines what is a sinning soul and it’s punishment. Hell.

Let us thank God that man has taken a better look and set crimes and punishments at a graduated and saner punishment level than God‘s.

Many have wondered and debated ad nauseam on the topics of why God created sins and evil.

I follow this type of reasoning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZM3FXlLMug

Literalists believe the mythical Bible to be history; while it is myth.
It had to work quite hard at it in terms of plagiarizing older text to do so.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x84m5k ... -of-3_news

Literalists often mistakenly believe that Bible God kills as is His right and that is of course a ridiculous position. Myths do not have rights and for Bible God, the creator of perfections only, cannot ever be seen as destroying His perfect works. That would be an admission of something not being created perfect.

Sin and evil are basically God making a make work project for Himself.
I mean, He does write the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Right?

That is why the Bible says this.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The whole idea is to have us all humbly repenting before God and gleefully accepting slavery within God’s demographic pyramid.

Constantine/God, being a tyrant, would have been quite happy to pay extra to have this kind of social and spiritual power put into his hands as the leader of the new Church.
It is no wonder that the Gnostics had to go along with their ideas of freedom and a God potential within all of us. This would follow older, more progressive religions. Not the Abrahamic religions. They are there to enslave and not empower.


God, or His earthly kings can then have a nice docile controlled population to unquestioningly live or die for their masters. Sheeple as opposed to thinking people.

Law is then the Masters tool for subjugation of a population.

That is why God loves evil.
Scripture tells us that God is a jealous God and this ego stoking on His part is quite in character for a tyrant God.

Colossians 1:15-17
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

As this quote says, God is pleasured by evil and sin.

Without evil and sin, what does man need with a God? No need at all.

Are Christians then just a make work project for the God they invented?

Is that why Christians have degraded their morality and like the idea of a hell for those that are not like them?

In other words, are they just small thinking minds in a larger thinking global village?

How can you say you do not like evil when your whole notion of God says that you want a hell and sin to be here to garner punishment for those you hate?

Without it, you cannot get the revenge you crave for others from your invented God.
You then have to think as your God does and that moral evils are quite the good thing.

Regards
DL

Is this a self evident truth for Good and Evil?

In moral terms, the terms Good & Evil are only useful on a graph and are inseparable.

I see that many just look at these terms as opposites or duality.
Black white. Hot cold. Whatever.

It does not matter because, in moral terms, good and evil must be on a graph to be of any use to any discussion of moral issues.

That is why the ancients wrote them into the Bible as the tree of good and evil.
It’s fruit symbolizes that good and evil cannot be separated. One tree, one fruit that gives both good and evil at the same bite.

Evil, used as nouns does not say much of anything useful. For morals, evil as a noun does not stand well alone. If I were to tell you that something good or evil was heading your way, you would not have a clue as to what I speak of.

As adjectives, evil and good are good and useful.

It is what goes between these two adjectives then that is at issue and how and where we place them on the graph.
Ideally, the good and evil line will have a top and a bottom because issues often times have both good and evil within their character and is dependant on circumstances.

Like God for instance.

Basically, if you are arguing good and evil in any other way than described here; you are IMHO, wasting your time.

If you look to God for our moral sense you are also wasting your time because it is to mankind to set the rules of our dominion, not God‘s.

Good<----------------------------------------------->Evil.

Take either word Good or Evil away from this graph and it loses all meaning.

I think that the above is a self evident truth on how moral good and evil should be thought of.

Do you?
If not, why not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1-kTEyKMzQ


Regards
DL

Greatest I am, you have a theme of God/Satan and good/evil between all these different threads so I'm merging them. They are good philosophical questions. Many of these philosophical questions are discussed in the book, The Gospel According to Acharya S which you might enjoy. The previous link provides a few reviews, a prologue and table of contents as well as some excerpts at the bottom.

Here's a thread giving a book description

Here's a video book description



And here's an interview of Acharya S with Miguel

Thanks. I will check it out.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x84m5k ... -of-3_news

This might interest you.

Regards
DL