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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:16 pm 


I am currently in a Zeitgeist Movement meeting but I will comment later when I view it. Let me know if he brings up anything new.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:54 pm 
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Most all of that new video from Chris White has already been addressed in the Keith Trash thread. Almost all their info and sources are the same. And they're buddies in crime when lying for the Lord ... and proud of it. So, between that thread and the Dr. Chris Forbes on Zeitgeist part 1 thread and the article by Acharya S, Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes concerning 'Zeitgeist, Part 1' Chris White was already addressed before he even began as per usual. Same as their Zeitgeist Challenge was already met long before they ever created their challenge.

It really looks like Chris White went through Acharya's articles such as the Mythicist Position, the History of Mythicism and Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists? and used that information, names and images to make it appear like Mr. White knew what he was talking about. Then, White did his typical Christian revisionism that we've all become familiar with.

He keeps mentioning the copy-cat theory, which has been thoroughly addressed long ago - here. Plus, he insists on holding the bible up as proof of itself, which is, of course, a circular argument to use the bible to prove the bible. Even highly respected and credentialed New Testament and biblical scholars who are also professed Christians disagree with him:
Quote:
"The Gospels are neither histories nor biographies, even within the ancient tolerances for those genres."

- Dr. John Dominic Crossan

- Who Was Jesus?, page 24

* Dr. Crossan is a major figure in the fields of biblical archaeology, anthropology and New Testament textual and higher criticism.

Chris White claims that nobody ever argued that Jesus never existed. LOL, he needs to read the Epistles of John:

1 John 4:2-3 (KJ) "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

And:

2 John 1:7 (KJ) "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Why the need for the Epistles of John to claim that those who don't believe are not of God or that they are deceivers and antichrists? That's just plain old fashioned discrimination and a tactic used to force submission. If Jesus really existed there would be no need for any such discrimination. Shouldn't Chris White be asking, "Who are these people that "confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh"? So, there's a red flag for ya right there and there are more.

Celsus may have been one of the first mythicists (c. 177) as he pointed out that Jesus was a collage of mythical characters borrowed from Pagan mythologies, which essentially proves theists & those atheists wrong who claim that the first time anybody ever claimed Jesus was a myth was in the 18th/19th centuries.

Docetism explained in The Christ Conspiracy. She discusses the docetics and docetism in all of her books and many blogs and articles. There are several threads throughout this forum discussing it too.

He also omits the 10 ton elephant in the room where the early Christians went on censorship rampage destroying all they could get their hands on, which led to a period of time we all know today as THE DARK AGES. Anybody who claimed Jesus never existed risked torture and execution until not all that long ago. Even to this very day we have Christians like Chris White still attempting to use discrimination, lies, rhetoric, propaganda, malicious smears and more to force submission in this very video! Someone needs to remind them that the crusades, Inquisitions, witch hunts and dark ages are over. If Mr. White and his buddy Keith Trash could get away with it, they would love to have us all killed for the Lord in order to shut us up. They would love to bring back the good old days of the crusades, Inquisitions, witch hunts and dark ages.

Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E)

Gimme that ol' time religion...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:30 pm 
http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/thebi ... p_activity

I made a post on the Bible Geek to see if anyone else is giving some good commentary. Here is what Jim Jones has been saying so far:

Quote:
The Romans would not have given two shits about whether christ existed or not (at least the pre-Constantine Emperors). The fact that questions didn't arise until the 18th Century is not testament to the existence of the christ (indeed the negative of such a proposition isn't evidence for anything) - 1700 years for questions to arise is however a testament to the success of the church in keeping critical thinking and inquiry suppressed (heresy - derived from the greek meaning choice seems such a fitting term for deviation from accepted practice). 4:05 - idiot - because works critical of christianity were really likely to have been preserved (except when quoted by church fathers arguing against them).

At least he has the good sense to refer to non-biblical writings (without actually mentioning any particulars - there are no references, as biblegeek comrades will be aware, to the child in 1st century writers - and 2nd century references - there's one passage in Tacitus (Ann. 15.44) and a couple in Suetonius (one in the Claudius and I think one in the Tiberius). On Lincoln there is much more evidence for the existence of Lincoln than for christ. 8:20 - linking the christ myth to Lenin and Communism? Fuckin really? Do we really have to listen to this crap? I'm not even going to refute that one as it speaks for itself. Next he'll be saying that Hitler was an atheist (a claim about as mythical as the historical christ). Frazer is not to be criticised for failing to see into the future - dick head. This idiot surely isn't suggesting that christianity is original? (12:47). He's really dismissing Massey because Massey said (effectively) 'god told me'? Really? On the Horace comparison are not the 'facts' of the comparison to be found on temple walls? You'll excuse me if I take what this guy says with a grain of salt given his clear agenda.


I kinda laughed at the part about Lenin and Communism... now I'm kinda wondering if I should stop watching Captain America for a moment to check this out. LOL


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:27 am 
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I browsed over the comments there on youtube, and just had to repost this one for the lulz-

Quote:
Acharya is clearly a nut who stretches logic beyond recognition. My Son has a book on Mythology that describes Myths from all over the world and goes into detail about the egyption Myths of creation & the sun God Ra, his wives and sons Osiris and Isis Horus. I read it I saw NO connection to The story of Jesus at all.


ImageAnd there in lies your problem.

I know of a book about Christianity that describes Christian lore from all over the world and goes into detail about the gospel stories and the god Jehovah, his disciples, Jesus and Mary. I can read it and see NO connection to the story of Moses or any of the other Old Testament figures which are supposed to prophetic foreshadowings of Jesus.

Does that mean the Old Testament does not contain parallels to the New Testament, as even Paul admitted?
Of course not. And why? Because the Bible is the primary source and contains much more information than can be contained in one concise little book.

And the plethora of Egyptian primary sources dwarfs the Bible. There's the Pyramid Texts, The Coffin Texts, The Book of the Dead, The Litany of Ra, The Bremner-Rhind Papyrus, etc., etc., etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Chris White claims that nobody ever argued that Jesus never existed. LOL, he needs to read the Epistles of John:

1 John 4:2-3 (KJ) "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

And:

2 John 1:7 (KJ) "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Why the need for the Epistles of John to claim that those who don't believe are not of God or that they are deceivers and antichrists? That's just plain old fashioned discrimination and a tactic used to force submission. If Jesus really existed there would be no need for any such discrimination. Shouldn't Chris White be asking, "Who are these people that "confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh"? So, there's a red flag for ya right there and there are more.


Hi there. Someone had posted this link in the comment section of the video.

I just wanted to point out on the above point that what was being addressed in John was Docetism.

Quote:
"the belief that Jesus' physical body was an illusion, as was his crucifixion; that is, Jesus only seemed to have a physical body and to physically die, but in reality he was incorporeal, a pure spirit, and hence could not physically die"


A Docetist would not claim that Jesus didnt exist in the sense that he was on earth, and did the the things mentioned, they only would say that it was an illusion. Probably because of the belief that the material world was evil, and as a result, anything good could not be material.

I just wanted to stop by and point that out in case this was something that you have believed for any length of time.

Thanks for posting the video, I hope you get a change to see all of it. I did try not to rehash the old debunkings and tried to provide new material.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:49 pm 
Hey there Chris, concerning the evidence you present in your channel I was curious if you could provide your sources regarding the Soviet's and the actual works your referencing in the beginning. Since I will be examining this as apart of my series on the famous video's put out there by people, I would appreciate it if you gave a much better reference of sources for your video. Like put it up in an annotation that I can look at the source for myself.

In other words, I was wondering if you could just provide a number of actual sources instead of naming names which makes it harder for me to go look up. I would also appreciate some of those names that you pronounce to put out a spelling to allow for people to research better. I only ask this so that you are more transparent with your sources.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:15 pm 
Oh and I also have another point of reference to ask with regards to your challenge: What will you accept that constitutes as evidence? What Methods are we permitted to use? Is there a third party that you will give the evidence to evaluate that does not hold a stance in either side that can examine the evidence? This seems to be the biggest contention in my view point.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:51 am 
Quote:
The reference for that claim was here Nikiforov, Vladimir. "Russian Christianity" in Leslie Houlden (ed.) Jesus in History, Thought, and Culture: An Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO, 2003, p. 749.


So it would appear that this is Chris White's source for the reference towards the Soviet Union claim.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:18 pm 
Well it would appear that he is not going to answer at all. I hope Acharya didn't ban him out of spite, which of course I would not blame her considering the lies and slander's he puts forth.

At any rate I have an update, I just got word from DeistPaladin and he said he would have no problem contributing to the project. GodAImighty said he had a number of people who might be interested, just let put the names on who decided to accept here GodAImighty.



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Quote:
I hope Acharya didn't ban him out of spite, which of course I would not blame her considering the lies and slander's he puts forth.

No, he has not been banned. I don't think she even knows he has joined and posted here. Still, the evidence and facts are on our side so, unless he gets nasty and turns into a troll like Keith Trash did, he can post here. But, he does need to be on his very best behavior considering all the malicious lies Chris and Keith have attempted to spread in order to shore up their faith at all costs.

The good news is that people who've actually read her work know better than to believe the absurd nonsense they put out there. They are giving us free advertising. When Christians read her work for themselves after hearing their nonsense, even they are pretty P-O'd at those guys. Decent Christians are thoroughly embarrassed by them. They've actually helped us win over quite a few Christians and they don't even know it. Well, they've probably gotten some messages but, they don't discuss them or probably delete them so others won't find out. Just give those guys plenty of rope and they'll hang themselves. :lol:

That video by DeistPaladin is from 2009. It doesn't sound like he has ever actually read a book of hers either. I'd be curious to hear his opinion after reading the New Zeitgeist Part 1 Sourcebook (August 2010)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:48 pm 
Well I decided to include him for his view on the historical Jesus overall, since it is one that neither me nor GodAImighty profess.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:59 pm 
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I was wrong above when I said:
Quote:
It really looks like Chris White went through Acharya's articles such as the Mythicist Position, the History of Mythicism and Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists?

This new video is the same crap from their older videos, which were debunked repeatedly. They've simply added in a few new lies and smears after going through the new Sourcebook.

Chris White, Keith Trash and the rest have been informed of the information below and know for a fact that they are lying to their Christian audience who are easily duped by videos such as these telling them exactly what they want to hear. Many more honest and decent Christians are fully aware though and are embarrassed by these guys.

At 31:30 - White tosses the claim: "Did Jesus exist? There are over 42 sources within 150 years of Jesus' death, which mention his existence and record many events in his life."

LOL, that's the same load of BS that 'Zeitgeist refuted' tried to pawn off on everybody except, Chris White is clearly padding it up a bit when he says "over 42." This claim is easily refuted, but it keeps getting repeated by wishful Christians across the net anyway.

Quote:
ZG Refuted at 53:35 "Is there evidence for a historical Jesus?"

"42 authors mention Jesus within 150 years of his life.

9 traditional authors of the N.T.:

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, author of Hebrews, James, Peter, Jude

20 early Christian writers outside the N.T.:

Clement of Rome, 2 Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, Didache, Barnabas, Shepard of Hermes, fragments of Papias, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch Quadratus, Aristo of Pella, Melito of Sardis, Dhognetus, Gospel of Peter, Apocalypse of Peter, Epistula Apostolorum

4 heretical writings:

Gospel of Thomas, gospel of Truth, Apocryphon of John, treatise on resurrection

9 secular sources:

Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Phlegon, Lucian, Celsus, Mara bar-Serapion, Seutonius, Thallus.

"Historical documents confirm that Jesus was executed as a criminal under Pontius Pilot who ruled Judea under Emperor Tiberius"

"ZG Refuted" is laughable at 53:35 - LOL, It's not always just what devotees say that is wrong it can often be what they don't say. For example, not a single one of the "42 authors" ever met Jesus while he was alive. The four canonical Gospel writers were all anonymous until the names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were added as authors late in the 2nd century. There is no contemporary eyewitness testimony for Jesus at all whatsoever. Nobody ever wrote about Jesus during his lifetime and the canonical gospels didn't exist as we have them today until around 180CE - that is what the literary and historical records show i.e. evidence that actually exists.

Ten Reasons to Reject the Apologetic 10/42 Source Slogan

Even top Christian NT scholars can't agree on evidence for the historical Jesus:
Quote:
"One would naturally expect that the Lord Jesus Christ would be sufficiently important to receive ample notice in the literature of his time, and that extensive biographical material would be available. He was observed by multitudes of people, and his own followers numbered into the hundreds (1 Cor. 15:6), whose witness was still living in the middle of the first century. As a matter of fact, the amount of information concerning him is comparatively meager. Aside from the four Gospels, and a few scattered allusions in the epistles, contemporary history is almost silent concerning him."

- Merrill C. Tenney

- Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ (WWJ) 85-86

* Dr. Tenney is a conservative evangelical Christian who was a professor of Theological Studies and the dean of the school of Theology at Wheaton College. Tenney was also one of the original translators of the NASB and NIV editions of the Bible.

Quote:
"Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent upon these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic"

- F.F. Bruce, a founder of the modern evangelical movement

- "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ" (WWJ) page 84

Quote:
"...there are very few sources for knowledge of the historical Jesus beyond the four canonical Gospels. Paul and Josephus offer little more than tidbits. Claims that later apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material supply independent and reliable historical information about Jesus are largely fantasy. In the end, the historian is left with the difficult task of sifting through the Four Gospels for historical tradition."

- John P. Meier

- "Who Was Jesus?" page 86

* Dr. Meier is a Catholic University New Testament professor, Catholic priest and monsignor

Quote:
"The gospels are in fact anonymous"

- Dr. Craig L. Blomberg

- WWJ (60)

Quote:
"The Gospels are neither histories nor biographies, even within the ancient tolerances for those genres."

- Dr. John Dominic Crossan

- WWJ (24)

Quote:
Jesus famed far and wide:

"These "great crowds" and "multitudes," along with Jesus's fame, are repeatedly referred to in the gospels, including at the following: Mt 4:23-25, 5:1, 8:1, 8:18, 9:8, 9:31, 9:33, 9:36, 11:7, 12:15, 13:2, 14:1, 14:13, 14:22, 15:30, 19:2, 21:9, 26:55;

Mk 1:28, 10:1; Lk 4:14, 4:37, 5:15, 14:25, etc."

- Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ" by D. M. Murdock page 85

"Additionally, even though many times in the gospels Jesus was claimed to have been famed far and wide, not one historian of the era was aware of his existence, not even individuals who lived in, traveled around, or wrote about the relevant areas. The brief mentions of Christ, Christians or Christianity we possess from non-Christian sources are late and dubious as to their authenticity and/or value. Nor is there any valid scientific archaeological evidence demonstrating the gospel story to be true or even to support the existence of Jesus Christ. Despite this utter lack of evidence, Christian apologists and authorities make erroneous and misleading claims that there are "considerable reports" and "a surprisingly large amount of detail" regarding the life of Jesus and early Christianity."

- WWJ page 257

The one constant theme is, there's no credible evidence for a historical Jesus, same as there was no valid evidence amongst the 1st Xians either. The earliest Christians never had any evidence they could point to in order to demonstrate Jesus actually existed. If Jesus was really a carpenter, there was no work done by his hands. There were no paintings, rock carvings, writings - nothing by him at all. And, there's no evidence that the earliest Christians ever tried to claim anything by him ever existed. And what about Jesus' own family? Isn't it odd that nobody ever went to them for an interview of any kind? Where's Jesus' supposed family today? If they were real people i.e. Joseph, Mary and Jesus' siblings etc. don't you think Constantine and his mother would've sought them out? NOPE, nothing, notta, zippo, ZERO! There's never been anything beyond 'anecdotal evidence' or evidence based on hearsay.

So, it appears that in 2,000 years nothing has changed. Which is significant considering all the research, investigations and all the money / funding spent on them. So, it's really bad form for NT & biblical scholars to rigidly adhere to the a priori assumption that Jesus must have existed when there's no valid evidence substantiating that claim.

Jesus Christ Never Existed

From there, at 32, Chris White claims: "No serious historian believes that Jesus didn't exist"

Chris claims that quote is from Bart Ehrman so, I'd like to see the citation for it.

Quote:
"As for this tiresome business about there being "no scholar" or "no serious scholar" who advocates the Christ Myth theory: Isn't it obvious that scholarly communities are defined by certain axioms in which grad students are trained, and that they will lose standing in those communities if they depart from those axioms? The existence of an historical Jesus is currently one of those. That should surprise no one, especially with the rightward lurch of the Society for Biblical Literature in recent years. It simply does not matter how many scholars hold a certain opinion."

- Dr. Robert M. Price, Biblical Scholar

Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History

There are outright lies from Chris around 48:30, 1:11:00 and elsewhere and probably more. I simply don't have time to waste on these guys. As I said previously, these guys are simply repeating the same lies that some Christians merely want to hear but, there are many more far more honest Christians who have the integrity to study the material for themselves. The facts and credible evidence is on our side.

Quote:
"The cult of Sol Invictus, the 'Invincible Sun,' became dominant in Rome and in other parts of the empire during the early part of the second century A.D. And evidence abounds that Roman sun cults influenced Christian thought and liturgy."

- Christian theologian Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, Signs of the Times (6/10)

- Jesus as the Sun throughout History

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:10 am 
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Hi all. Here's a little something I put together that I think will be useful. Hope you guys like it.

http://vimeo.com/34061067

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:15 am 
S.T.F. wrote:
Hi all. Here's a little something I put together that I think will be useful. Hope you guys like it.

http://vimeo.com/34061067


Loved the ending there; lmfao, brilliant!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:06 am 
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S.T.F. wrote:
Hi all. Here's a little something I put together that I think will be useful. Hope you guys like it.

http://vimeo.com/34061067

Great Job. That just goes to show how often these people frequent the site looking for something they can try and use against Murdock. It's pathetic and I'm glad that you rubbed his nose in it because Chris White needs to understand what the fruits of this type of dishonesty yields.

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