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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:30 pm 
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Got Questions Ministries: Addressed and Debunked

Is Jesus a Myth? by S. Michael Houdmann, DEBUNKED

Is Jesus a Myth? by S. Michael Houdmann

Is Jesus a myth?

" is an outreach of"

Just more of the same Christian apologist crap that's been addressed and debunked throughout this forum repeatedly.

S. Michael Houdmann wrote:
"The claim that Jesus was a myth or an exaggeration originated in the writings of liberal German theologians in the nineteenth century."

- Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with the Jew Tryphon" around 150 CE with Tryphon essentially declaring that Jesus is a Christian invention as no evidence for Jesus existed, even back then; debunking those who claim that the first time anybody ever claimed Jesus was a myth was in the 18th/19th centuries.

- Also at around 150 CE we have Justin Martyr's First Apology conceding parallels:

"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you [PAGANS] believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter [ZEUS]...."

- Celsus may have been another early mythicist (c. 177) as he pointed out that Jesus was a collage of mythical characters borrowed from Pagan mythologies, which, once again, essentially proves theists & those atheists wrong who claim that the first time anybody ever claimed Jesus was a myth was in the 18th/19th centuries.

- Why I Am a Mythicist

S. Michael Houdmann wrote:
"Of note is the fact that none of the books containing these theories were taken seriously by the academics of the day"

Give this thread a serious going over: Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History

S. Michael Houdmann wrote:
"It has only been recently that these assertions have been resurrected, primarily due to the rise of the Internet and the mass distribution of information from unaccountable sources."

Give this article a serious going over: Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists?

S. Michael Houdmann wrote:
"This leads us to the next area of investigation—do the mythological gods of antiquity really mirror the person of Jesus Christ? As an example, the Zeitgeist movie makes these claims about the Egyptian god Horus:"

• He was born on December 25 of a virgin: Isis Mary
• A star in the East proclaimed his arrival
• Three kings came to adore the newborn “savior”
• He became a child prodigy teacher at age 12
• At age 30 he was “baptized” and began a “ministry”
• Horus had twelve “disciples”
• Horus was betrayed
• He was crucified
• He was buried for three days
• He was resurrected after three days

However, when the actual writings about Horus are competently examined, this is what we find:

• Horus was born to Isis; there is no mention in history of her being called “Mary.” Moreover, “Mary” is our Anglicized form of her real name, Miryam or Miriam. “Mary” was not even used in the original texts of Scripture."

Here are some images for Isis-Meri (Isis Beloved)





Source: Egyptian Hieroglyphs with the inscription Àset-Meri (Isis Beloved) at the British Museum - The Nile: Notes for Travellers in Egypt (1905), by Ernest Alfred Wallis Budge (page 712, 719 and 722 of the following edition: link)

From here and here. Other images here.

S. Michael Houdmann wrote:
"Isis was not a virgin; she was the widow of Osiris and conceived Horus with Osiris."

"The Pyramid Texts speak of "the great virgin" (Hwn.t wr.t) three times 682c, 728a, 2002a"

"In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: "I am the great virgin"

- Christ in Egypt, page 152,

* Pyramid Texts are 4,400 years old

"...Horus was not the only sun-god recognised by the Egyptians. His own father Osiris, the Savior (of whom Horus was a re-incarnation), was born—also at the winter solstice—of an immaculate virgin, the goddess Neith, who, like Isis, the mother of Horus, was known by the titles of Mother of God, Immaculate Virgin, Queen of Heaven, Star of the Sea, The Morning Star, The Intercessor."

- William Williamson, The Great Law: A Study of Religious Origins, 26

"The miraculous birth of Jesus could be viewed as analogous to that of Horus, whom Isis conceived posthumously from Osiris, and Mary was closely connected with Isis by many other shared characteristics."

- Dr. Erik Hornung, The Secret Lore of Egypt, 75

"The Egyptian goddess who was equally ‘the Great Virgin’ (hwnt) and ‘Mother of the God’ was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus]."

- Dr. R.E. Witt, Isis in the Ancient World, 273

"...the resemblances between Isis and the Virgin Mary are far too close and numerous to be accidental. There can, in fact, be no question that the Isiac cult was a profound influence on other religions, not least Christianity ... [Isis] was the sacred embodiment of motherhood, yet was known as the Great Virgin, an apparent contradiction that will be familiar to Christians."

- Dr. James Curl, The Egyptian Revival, 12-13

- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, page 120

Below is a video clip of modern Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov admitting parallels between Osiris &/or Horus with Jesus. And, at 5:30 you'll see a stone carving of Isis as she hovers over Osiris in the form of a bird to receive the divine seed (notice there's no 'member') of Osiris. Mojsov then says, "It's a miraculous birth of the savior child."

In the supposed "sex scene" below Osiris and Isis DID NOT have literal sex it was supernatural as indicated by Isis hovering over Osiris in the forum of a BIRD, and this is when Horus was conceived with Dr. Mojsov then saying, "It's a miraculous birth of the savior child."

'Osiris...begetting a son by Isis, who hovers over him in the form of a hawk.'
(Budge, On the Future Life: Egyptian Religion, 80)


S. Michael Houdmann wrote:
"Horus was not “baptized.” The only account of Horus that involves water is one story where Horus is torn to pieces, with Isis requesting the crocodile god to fish him out of the water."

No, that was Osiris who was torn into 14 pieces symbolizing the days of the waning moon. Nevertheless, Horus was purified with water i.e. baptized as baptism was not originated by Christianity as scholars concede. Below, the Catholic encyclopedia admits baptism existed long before Christianity against their own interests:

“How natural and expressive the symbolism of exterior washing to indicate interior purification was recognized to be, is plain from the practice also of the heathen systems of religion. The use of lustral water is found among the Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Hindus, and others.”
- Catholic Encyclopedia, “Baptism” (II, 260)

- Christ in Egypt, page 233

Christ in Egypt has a 30 page chapter on that subject alone starting on page 233. There's too much info to just pluck out a couple quotes which don't do Acharya's work on this subject justice.

S. Michael Houdmann wrote:
"Horus did not have 12 disciples. According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four demigods that followed him, and there are some indications of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him."

There's a 20 page chapter on that subject in Christ in Egypt starting at the bottom of page 269. Here's an image along with the caption under it from very highly respected Egyptologist Eric Hornung's book on the 12 at Acharya's description page for CIE for all to see. There are many more images of "the twelve" in the book.

Horus enthroned before the Twelve, Seventh Hour of the Amduat. (Erik Hornung, The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife, 48)

S. Michael Houdmann wrote:
"Horus did not die by crucifixion. There are various accounts of Horus’ death, but none of them involve crucifixion."

Was Horus "Crucified?"

Please read the Sourcebook for further information on Zeitgeist part 1.

Please read the Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes for more information about Horus.

Please read Mithra: The Pagan Christ and the FORUM THREAD for more information regarding Mithra.

Primary Sources, Publications and Scholars Cited in The ZEITGEIST Sourcebook

"Contrary to popular misconception, the information in the religion part of the hit internet movie, the first "Zeitgeist" film comes from numerous primary sources, including the following, as well as the works of highly credentialed authorities in the best academic publications, also listed here. It should be noted that this list does not include the multitude of other artifacts and writings from antiquity that may be found in the other works of D.M. Murdock/Acharya S.

Ancient artifacts and archaeological sites

Lascaux, Altamira and Trois Freres cave paintings
Tassili N'Aijer figures
Mohenjo-daro, Indus Valley site
Goseck, Germany
Thirteen Towers, Chankillo, Peru
Nabta Playa, Egypt
Karanovo Tablet
Dendera zodiac and other Egyptian artifacts
Brindisi disk
Greek pottery, paintings, mosaics, temples
Roman mosaics, paintings and statuary
Early Christian artifacts, etc.

Murdock does research in a variety of languages, both modern and ancient, such as: Ancient and modern Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Sanskrit, Vedic, Persian, Egyptian, Coptic, French, Italian, Spanish, German and a smattering of other languages as the need arises.

Ancient Writings

Egyptian hymns, hieroglyphs, papyri and carvings
Pyramid Texts
Coffin Texts
Book of the Dead
Diodorus Siculus
Justin Martyr
Minucius Felix
Clement Alexandrinus
Julius Firmicus Maternus
Bhagavad Gita
Bhagavata Purana
Lalita Vistara
Vishnu Purana
Venerable Bede
Epic of Gilgamesh
Assyrian, Babylonia, Akkadian tablets
Dead Sea Scrolls

The information also comes from the best and most thorough, scholarly and modern sources wherever possible, with the result that many authorities cited possess credentials from respected institutes of higher learning, and their publishers are some of the most scholarly in English (and other languages), such as the following.

Academic Publishers

E.J. Brill
Kegan Paul
Oxford University/Clarendon Press
Princeton University Press
Cambridge University Press
Cornell University Press
Yale University Press
University of Chicago Press
University of Pennsylvania Press
University of Wisconsin Press
Johns Hopkins Press
Harcourt, Brace & Co.
Macmillan & Co., etc.

Those who really know what academia is will recognize the list above as the best of the most respected institutes of higher learning.

Professional Scholars

Dr. Miranda J. Aldhouse-Green, a professor of Archaeology at Cardiff University
Dr. Lee I.A. Levine, a professor at the Jewish Theological Seminary
Dr. Edwin C. Krupp, director of the Griffith Observatory
Dr. Emund S. Meltzer, American Egyptologist
Dr. James P. Allen, curator of Egyptian Art at the Metropolitan Museum of Art
Dr. Erik Hornung, professor emeritus of Egyptology at the University of Basel
Dr. Henri Frankfort, Dutch Egyptologist
Dr. Jan Assman, professor of Egyptology at the University of Konstanz
Dr. Badrya Serry, director of the Antiquities Museum at the Bibliotheca Alexandrina in Egypt
Dr. Bojana Mojsov, Egyptologist
Dr. Reginald E. Witt, Egyptologist and professor at the University of London
Dr. G. Johannes Botterweck, professor of Old Testament and Catholic Theology at the University of Bonn
Dr. Alfred Wiedermann, Egyptologist and professor of Oriental Languages at the University of Bonn
Dr. John Gwyn Griffiths, Welsh professor of Classics and Egyptology
Dr. Raymond O. Faulkner, English Egyptologist
Dr. Tryggve N.D. Mettinger, professor of Old Testament Studies at the University of Lund
Rev. Dr. Alfred Bertholet, a theologian and professor at the University of Göttingen
Dr. Herman te Velde, a chairman of the Department of Egyptology at the University of Groningen
Dr. Andrew T. Fear, professor of Classics and Ancient History at the University of Manchester
Dr. David Adams Leeming, professor emeritus of English and comparative literature at the University of Connecticut
Dr. Patricia A. Johnston, Brandeis University professor of Classical Studies
Dr. David John Tacey, professor at La Trobe University
Dr. Edwin F. Bryant, professor of Hinduism at Rutgers University
Dr. Hugo Rahner, Jesuit theologian, dean and president of Innsbruck University
Sir Dr. Edmund Ronald Leach, Cambridge professor and anthropologist
Dr. Donald White, professor emeritus of Classics at the University of Pennsylvania
Dr. Martin Schwartz, professor of Iranian Studies at the University of California
Rev. Dr. Harold R. Willoughby, professor of New Testament and Early Christian Literature at the University of Chicago
Dr. Mary Boyce, professor of Iranian Studies
Dr. Payam Nabarz, Iranian scholar
Dr. Marvin Meyers, a professor of Religious Studies at Chapman College
Dr. Theony Condos, professor at the American University of Armenia
Dr. Aviram Oshri, senior archaeologist with the Israeli Antiquities Authority
Dr. Chris Dolan, American astronomer
Rev. Dunbar T. Heath of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland
Dr. John L. Heilbron, professor of History at the University of California, Berkeley
Dr. K.A. Heinrich Kellner, a professor of Catholic Theology at the University of Bonn
Dr. David Ulansey, philosopher professor at California Institute of Integral Studies
Dr. Robert M. Schoch, geologist and professor at Boston University
Dr. Henricus Oort, Dutch theologian and professor of Hebrew Antiquities at the University of Leiden
Rev. Dr. J. Glen Taylor, an associate professor of Old Testament at the University of Toronto

- Primary Sources, Publications and Scholars Cited in The Zeitgeist Sourcebook

For more Christian apologists who've been exposed and debunked:

Dr. Chris Forbes on Zeitgeist part 1, DEBUNKED

Did Jesus Really Exist? by Dr. Paul Maier, DEBUNKED

Challenging the Zeitgeist Movie by Dr. Mark Foreman, DEBUNKED

Dr. John Oakes, DEBUNKED

William Lane Craig, DEBUNKED

ABR's "Analysis and Response to Zeitgeist", DEBUNKED

Christianity was influenced by pagan religion, James Bishop

Duck Dynasty’s Phil Robertson gets schooled!

Pagan Parallels: Achilles Heel of Christianity

Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History - a must read

Mythicists United
Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
2015 Astrotheology Calendar
Astrotheology Calendar Special
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube
The Mythicist Position

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:06 pm 
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Here's another post by Got Questions on Zeitgeist part 1. Much of it has already been addressed above so I'll just address a few things from the post.

Is there any validity to the Zeitgeist movie?

Got Questions wrote:
Perhaps one of the most telling statements in all the Bible regarding the importance God places on the stars is found in Genesis 1:16b: “He made the stars also.” This simple statement reveals the extent of the importance of the stars’ creation. Some biblical commentators have said this brevity of description is deliberate as God wants to in no way give the stars significance. In truth, rather than giving the stars, sun, and moon any value beyond what they were created for, there are a number of places in Scripture that denounce their worship. Deuteronomy 4:19 says, “And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.” In fact, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 prescribes a death sentence for anyone found worshiping the creation rather than the Creator.

LOL, all these scriptures do is show that that is precisely what they were doing - worshiping the sun, moon, planets, stars, constellations, milky way etc. Otherwise, there's no need to even mention it. Star worship was so rampant in ancient times even with the Jews that they had to pass laws making it illegal and punishable by death to get people to stop.

"This book is a slightly revised version of my doctoral dissertation entitled “Solar Worship in the Biblical World” which was submitted to the Graduate School of Yale University in the Spring of 1989. As may be judged from the title of that work, I had at one time planned to cover more territory than sun worship in ancient Israel, but found the material pertaining to ancient Israel so vast that I never got beyond it."

- Rev. Dr. J. Glen Taylor, "Yahweh and the Sun: Biblical and Archaeological Evidence for Sun Worship in Ancient Israel" (1993)

"At Stonehenge in England and Carnac in France, in Egypt and Yucatan, across the whole face of the earth are found mysterious ruins of ancient monuments, monuments with astronomical significance. These relics of other times are as accessible as the American Midwest and as remote as the jungles of Guatemala. Some of them were built according to celestial alignments; others were actually precision astronomical observatories ... Careful observation of the celestial rhythms was compellingly important to early peoples, and their expertise, in some respects, was not equaled in Europe until three thousand years later."

- Dr. Edwin Krupp, astronomer and director at Griffith Park Observatory in Los Angeles, 'In Search of Ancient Astronomies,' page xiii. Also quoted in "Suns of God," page 26

"I find it undeniable that many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations." "I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock"

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D's

Star Worship of the Ancient Israelites

Zodiacs on the Floor of Synagogues

2,750-year-old solar-aligned temple discovered in Israel

Next, the typical strawman argument:

Got Questions wrote:
In Isaiah 47:13 God mockingly asks if the stargazers can actually protect those who follow them from the real Power of the universe: “All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you.” So the Zeitgeist movie’s claim that the Bible is based on astrology goes against what is written in the Book itself.

Zeitgeist part 1 made no mention of astrologers making any predictions or reading tarot cards or anything else because that's not what Zeitgeist was about at all but, nice attempt at deflection. "astrology as we know it today and astrotheology are two completely different things..." Is Astrotheology Just Astrology?

Got Questions wrote:
In addition to the faulty concept of astrology and the Bible being joined at the hip, the specific statements made in the film about this supposed link disregard historical facts. For example, the movie states that the number 12 in the Bible refers to the 12 zodiacal signs. So the 12 patriarchs, 12 tribes of Israel, and 12 disciples of Jesus are supposed to match the number of the astrological signs. This is out of the realm of possibility, as Genesis was written around 1000 B.C. with the actual events having occurred much earlier. History shows that the division of the stars/constellations into the 12 zodiacal signs did not occur until the Babylonians made the divisions around the fifth century B.C.

It's wise to study a subject before pretending to be an expert and claiming we are "disregard historical facts" - perhaps Got Questions should check itself first.

“The claim that the 12 tribes of Israel were identified with the 12 signs of the zodiac is spelled out clearly by the ancient Jewish writers Philo and Josephus, during the first century. During the first century BCE, Diodorus Siculus identified the 12 tribes with the 12 months.

“See Exodus 39:9-14: "...they made the breastplate... And they set in it four rows of stones... And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve...according to the twelve tribes.”

As Josephus says (Antiquities, 3.8): “And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning.” (Josephus/Whiston, 75.)

Earlier than Josephus, Philo (“On the Life of Moses,” 12) had made the same comments regarding Moses: “Then the twelve stones on the breast, which are not like one another in colour, and which are divided into four rows of three stones in each, what else can they be emblems of, except of the circle of the zodiac?” (Philo/Duke, 99.)”

– Christ in Egypt, 261-2

The Twelve in the Bible and Ancient Mythology

Astrotheology of the Ancients

Stone Age Zodiac by National Geographic

Preachers, priests quietly embrace the Christ myth

"The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional compilation of characters, not a single historical individual. A compilation of multiple "people" is no one. When the mythological and midrashic layers are removed, there remains no historical core to the onion. The evidence reveals that the gospel story is myth historicized, not history mythologized."

— D.M. Murdock/Acharya S


Mythicists United
Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
2015 Astrotheology Calendar
Astrotheology Calendar Special
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube
The Mythicist Position

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:20 pm 
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Here's another post at "Got Questions"

What is astrotheology?

Just more of the same typical Christian apologist responses that we've all come to expect ... already addressed above. They tend to forget about one of if not the oldest book in the Old Testament, the Book of Job 38:31-33, which cites Pleiades, Orion and the Mazzaroth or Zodiac. For more on that read: Jesus as the Sun throughout History

The Astrotheological Origins of Christianity

48 Bible Verses about Astronomy and 57 Bible Verses about Astronomy

Star Worship of the Ancient Israelites

Zodiacs on the Floor of Synagogues

2,750-year-old solar-aligned temple discovered in Israel

Pagan Parallels: Achilles Heel of Christianity

"...Christian scholars over the centuries have admitted that ... "there are parallels between the Mysteries and Christianity"1 and that "the miracle stories of the Gospels do in fact parallel literary forms found in pagan and Jewish miracle stories," 2 "...According to Form Criticism the Gospels are more like folklore and myth than historical fact."3

1. Metzger, HLS, 8.
2. Meier, II, 536.
3. Geisler, CA, 320.

- Who Was Jesus?, 259

Here's what non-biased scholars say about Jesus:

"The only definite account of his life and teachings is contained in the four Gospels of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All other historical records of the time are silent about him. The brief mentions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have been generally regarded as not genuine and as Christian interpolations; in Jewish writings there is no report about Jesus that has historical value. Some scholars have even gone so far as to hold that the entire Jesus story is a myth."

- The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia

Jesus Christ, Sun of Righteousness

"The Mythicist case has been rebutted? Really? When did that happen? The arguments of the Mythicist camp have never been refuted - they have only been steadfastly ignored." "...As for this tiresome business about there being "no scholar" or "no serious scholar" who advocates the Christ Myth theory: Isn't it obvious that scholarly communities are defined by certain axioms in which grad students are trained, and that they will lose standing in those communities if they depart from those axioms? The existence of an historical Jesus is currently one of those. That should surprise no one, especially with the rightward lurch of the Society for Biblical Literature in recent years. It simply does not matter how many scholars hold a certain opinion."

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical scholar with two Ph.D.'s ... f=5&t=3110

Got Questions wrote:
Any attempt to allegorize the Word of God, pervert its plain sense, or deny Jesus Christ is abominable. The Bible warns us against “ignorant and unstable people” who distort Scripture “to their own destruction. . . . Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position” (2 Peter 3:16–17). Instead of being led astray by the claims of astrotheology, we should “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen” (verse 18).

God/Jesus is supposed to be the omniscient creator of the universe yet, is incapable of leaving behind VALID evidence of himself, which would:

1 Save Christians from persecution

2 Convince billions more skeptics and Pagans thus, saving more souls, which is what all of this is suppose to be all about, right?

So, either God/Jesus doesn't care about you or he doesn't exist. All theistic arguments have failed. If there were any credible evidence, faith, would not be the main requirement. It seems more likely, based on credible evidence, that religion is a human creation with an obsession of ridding the world of non-believers so that they don't challenge their false beliefs.

3. In Revelation, at the end of the day after all the tribulation, apocalypse & Armageddon eventually 2/3rds of the human population will be killed (all non-believers of course = *discrimination*) in what the religious tolerance website calls "the largest mass extermination of humans in history." (now removed). Blood will be at the horses bridle in Rev. 14:20. With 7.4 billion people on the planet right now that's 5 billion who will be murdered in the 'End Times' in the name of Christianity. What a sweet God you've got there (sarcasm). Actually, Christians who believe this farce are devotees of a *DEATH CULT* - I am a former saved and baptized Christian of about 20 years and getting out of Christianity and religion in general has been one of the very best things I've ever done. We help people get out of cults no matter what religion or cult.

A Brief History of the Apocalypse

; )

Mythicists United
Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
2015 Astrotheology Calendar
Astrotheology Calendar Special
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube
The Mythicist Position

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