It is currently Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:36 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:59 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 826
From http://www.booktalk.org/the-really-big- ... t9060.html


Robert Tulip wrote:
Kevin wrote:
I'm talking here specifically of the instances where he is said to have fed congregations of 4000 and 5000.

I was asked this question by a christian I was talking with and the only reply I had for him was "Good question, I'll get back to you. Your argument seems a reasonable one to me." Well here is the argument: Why weren't there accusations against the accuracy of these accounts that happened, supposedly, in front of so many people? IOW if I was to claim I fed 5000 people out of basically thin air it could be easily disproven. Why hasn't this happened with the Biblical accounts?

1) I'm not sure that there weren't contemporary attacks on the accuracy of the mass feedings. Does anyone here have any info regarding this?

2) I'm not sure how well-known the claims were or even when they actually originated. If they didn't originate until years after his death then obviously a valid suspicion of stated events is in order. If the claims were contemporary with the supposed events then how widespread was the message initially? IOW does it perhaps make sense for there to be no attacks on them even if the claims were presented in a timely manner?
This miracle appears six times in the Gospels, so is rather central to Christianity. The 5000 and 4000 are the visible stars, the two fishes are the sun and moon, the five loaves are the five visible planets. Production of abundance from nothing signifies the cosmic movement of the equinoxes at the time of Christ into the signs of Virgo and Pisces, symbolised by bread and fish. Spica, the main star of Virgo, symbolises an ear of wheat. The September equinox point moved past Spica at the time of Christ. The first fish of Pisces is a line of stars across the zodiac that the March equinox point reached at the time of Christ.

Robert Tulip wrote:
Perhaps the feeding of the five thousand started life as a parable, a bit like the wheat and weeds, and morphed into a miracle because people liked it so much. The explanation of the parable is as per my last post. But this cosmic explanation is not acceptable to the anti-naturalism of orthodox theology, so was expunged from the record, leaving only the miraculous trace...
Robert Tulip wrote:
The feeding of the multitude appears six times in the Gospels:

Matthew 14: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
Matthew 15: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
Mark 6: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
Mark 8: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
Luke 9: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
John 6: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV

In addition, the catching of the multitude of fishes appears twice:
Luke 5: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
John 21: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
and twice more without the miracle:
Matthew 4: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
Mark 1: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

Traditional interpretations of these passages are entirely cryptic, reliant on a supernatural messianic miracle. The question I have asked is if there could be some hidden meaning encoded in this central main miracle of the story of Jesus. An abundance of obvious clues point to this story of the loaves and fishes as a parable of the cosmic wheel of the Great Year. There is no 'free pass' required to explore the possible scientific status of this interpretation. I would be happy to analyse the texts line by line to test this claim.

Robert Tulip wrote:
Kevin wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:
I would be happy to analyse the texts line by line to test this claim.
I'm not following what you're talking about - but yes, go ahead.

Thanks Kevin. Of the six occurrences of the bread and fish miracle in the Gospels, the most interesting is at Mark 8
Quote:
1 In those days the multitude being very great, and having nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples unto him, and saith unto them,
2 I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now been with me three days, and have nothing to eat:
3 And if I send them away fasting to their own houses, they will faint by the way: for divers of them came from far.
4 And his disciples answered him, From whence can a man satisfy these men with bread here in the wilderness?
5 And he asked them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven.
6 And he commanded the people to sit down on the ground: and he took the seven loaves, and gave thanks, and brake, and gave to his disciples to set before them; and they did set them before the people.
7 And they had a few small fishes: and he blessed, and commanded to set them also before them.
8 So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets.
9 And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away.
10 And straightway he entered into a ship with his disciples, and came into the parts of Dalmanutha.
11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.
15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?


After miraculously feeding 4000 men and their families, Jesus contradictorily tells the Pharisees that 'no sign shall be given to this generation'. If spontaneous generation of bread and fish for so many people is not a sign, I am not sure what is. Surely if he was quizzed as per this text, he could easily point to the sign he has just performed, and say 'you want a sign, here is a sign.' Jesus instead seems to say this apparent miracle was not a sign for this generation, implying that it must be something else. He then goes on to berate his disciples for their failure to see, hear, remember and understand what he is talking about. The implication is that the real meaning of his comments is a mystery, one he struggles to communicate.

Possible explanations are that the loaves and fishes miracle is a sign for a later generation, and that it is intended as a parable, a symbolic story that points to a deeper meaning. Its presence six times in the gospels suggests this miracle is central to Christianity, but we find the disturbing problem that Jesus tells his disciples it was not a sign and that they don't have a clue what it means.

In the midst of this public miracle that is not a sign, we find an abundance of precise cosmic images regarding the Age of Pisces. Loaves and fishes are symbols for the signs of Virgo and Pisces. Over the 2000 years since Christ, Easter Week has occurred when the sun is in the constellation of Pisces and the full Moon in the constellation of Virgo, by virtue of the link between Easter, the equinox, the moon and the precession. This planetary alignment at the rebirth of the year each spring marks the slow shift of the stars in a period known as the Great Year, the 25765 year long cycle caused by the wobble of the axis of the earth.

The symbol of Pisces is two fish, and a symbol of Virgo is bread. The miracle/parable says abundance can be created from meager resources, using symbols of the sun and moon at the resurrection as markers of the dawning age of Pisces-Virgo, the age of fishers of men and the holy virgin.

Mark's earlier version of the story at 6:41, says when Jesus "had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all." This specific mention of looking up to heaven, also present in Matthew's version, is suggestive of a cosmic meaning for the story. Jesus goes on to explain that what the disciples do not comprehend is why there are twelve and seven baskets of fragments from his two performances of the miracle. These numbers are main allegories for the twelve signs of the zodiac and the seven visible planets including sun and moon.

The most logical explanation for this story is that it is a cosmic allegory, describing a new spiritual power available from the spirit of the new cosmic age, symbolised by the signs of loaves and fishes moving past the cosmic axis of the equinoxes. As well as the core meaning of the signs of Pisces and Virgo, the two fishes symbolise the sun and moon, the five loaves are the visible planets, the 4000 or 5000 multitude are the visible stars, and the twelve baskets are the signs of the zodiac

We see here a prime example of the literary trope of encoding a secret message in an overt message, with the intention that the overt message, aimed for popular consumption, should protect and distribute the more important secret message. The overt message is that the story is a miracle. The secret message is that it is a cosmic parable describing messianic identity in terms of the slow wheeling of the heavens.

Robert Tulip wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
Robert; First, the fish and loaves were not spontaneously generated, they were multiplied from the existing items.
Second, you claim to read the text but then pervert it. The verse you quoted reads: "11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him." Then you proceed to drop the most important word, 'heaven' and start referring to the fish and bread as a sign. Well, it wasn't a sign, it was a miracle. Who was it performed for? It benefited the people but we only see that the disciples were aware of it. Where did the miracle come from? Not heaven, it came from Jesus. You are very confused.

The question here is how to compare rival explanations. Traditional Christians say that Jesus broke the laws of physics through enormous miracles which fed tens of thousands of people but somehow failed to get noticed in the historical record. I am simply trying to explain the text in a way that is compatible with modern rational observation. Traditional Christians have an emotional barrier about looking at the evidence regarding the cosmic story in the Bible because it is not compatible with their dogmatic beliefs. These dogmas are more about securing the secular power of the church than supporting genuine understanding and enquiry. My explanation of the loaves and fishes shows a possible and likely meaning in the bizarre dialogue in Mark 8 that I quoted above where Jesus despairs about why his disciples don't understand the numbers seven and twelve. The story is a parable for the cosmic redemption through the Great Year, not a historic record of events. If all the Bible is analysed through this lens it starts to make perfect sense, including the prediction of 'the end of the age' as applying to the cosmic framework of precession of the equinox.
Robert Tulip wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
there are not rival explanations. There is what the Bible says, and then there is some far out attempt to read your philosophy into it. One problem with doing that is that it opens the text up to mean anything anyone wants it to say reducing it from even story status to meaningless prattle and confusion.
Who is really confused here? Stahrwe tries to support ‘what the Bible says’, but this leads him to a literal reading of miracles, and the claim that the Bible shows that God contradicts the laws of physics.

I say everything true in the Bible must be compatible with the laws of physics. Against this rational lens, we find there is no proof for the existence of Jesus Christ as described in the Bible, and that the most parsimonious and elegant explanation is that a hidden cosmic religion is concealed within the surface story of the Gospels. ‘Parsimony’ is a scientific term, meaning “ the use of the simplest or most frugal route of explanation available”. Parsimony is closely linked to elegance, for example in a proof that is “surprisingly simple yet effective and constructive” or a solution that “uses a non-obvious method to produce a solution which is highly effective and simple. An elegant solution may solve multiple problems at once, especially problems not thought to be inter-related.”

Why is the cosmic story only in code? From Exodus, the high priest of Israel wore a breastpiece that Josephus and Philo say represented the twelve signs of the zodiac. However, as Israel came in conflict with pagan religion, prophets opposed worship of the hosts of heaven, separating Yahweh from nature. Jesus stood in continuity with the esoteric tradition of the high priest breastplate that sees God as revealed in the zodiac, but this core message of salvation was suppressed in the political battle between Judeo-Christian monotheism and pagan polytheism.

Reading the New Testament with a view to finding cosmic references produces a great abundance of coherent references that are based on observation of precession of the equinox, linking the Age of Pisces to the history of the church and the Age of Aquarius to the Second Coming.

As we do not know if Jesus really lived, we cannot know if the Aquarian Christ, due in 2150, will be the first incarnation or the second. If Jesus lived in Palestine at the BC/AD turning point, the Aquarian Christ will be a second incarnation. If Jesus was an invention, the Aquarian Christ will be a first incarnation, compatible with the Jewish refusal to accept the messianic status of Jesus.

This cosmic interpretation provides a parsimonious and elegant reading of the Bible, opening a path to restore the dignity and meaning of the book. The real confusion rests in the literal apologist claim that God works in ways other than through the laws of physics.
Quote:
You have two problems which lead you to this confusion:

1) you refuse to believe that miracles are possible,
2) you are a victim of gnosticism (special, hidden or esoteric knowledge). It has a huge appeal because it elevates the gnostic above the rest of the rabble.

But as Sigmund once said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" and I am afraid that in this case there is obviously no hidden meaning.
So Stahrwe, you wish to remain among the rabble, denying the existence of any higher wisdom in gnosis. This has been a useful and effective church tactic to mobilise the faithful against the rational. Belief in miracles is central to this deceptive delusory church doctrine. Miracles are not possible.

You deny, astoundingly, that the loaves and fishes story contains hidden meaning. Jesus himself says in this passage at Mark 8:21 “How is it that ye do not understand?” indicating that there is a hidden meaning, so there is a dose of rhetoric in your assertion that Jesus himself is “obviously’ wrong.

You are saying ‘a fish is just a fish’ and ‘loaves are just loaves’. This is despite the objective fact that these are symbols of Pisces and Virgo, the equinoctial signs of the fishes and the virgin, which became central symbols of the church. Somehow, despite the clear instruction of Christ that parables are told to convey hidden meaning, Stahrwe says the miracle of the loaves and fishes has no hidden meaning.
Quote:

Quote:
13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side. 14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf. 15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

It is amazing that having just witnessed what Jesus did, they were still concerned because they were short of provisions. But that is human nature. We read about a providential event in someone's life and think that will never happen to us. Anyway, in case you missed it, here is the relevant part of Mark 8 again. It is bread, not stars or equinoxes or teacups in space or leprachauns, just bread.
Of course, just like communion, bread is just bread and has no symbolic meaning. :| Except that the equinox has moved through the sign of bread (Virgo) since the time of Christ, and the explanation of the Age used throughout the New Testament means only the Zodiacal Age, consistent with ancient hidden Jewish tradition. The zodiac signs on the High Priest breastplate appear again in the holy city of new Jerusalem in the Revelation, where they are the twelve foundation stones of the holy city starting at Pisces and going through to Aries, just like the Great Year.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:58 am 
Offline
Thor

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:59 pm
Posts: 22
Hello Robert,

You seem to have more patience for this stahrwe than I would have. His tactical evasiveness to astrotheology and anything to do with Acharya speaks to his weaknesses in the subject so I'd keep the pressure on him there. Otherwise he'll pull you off into some lame debate topic and play stupid about there being no allegories or hidden meanings to anything yet be himself convinced he's in Plato's cave or a star trek hollo deck simulation. For god surely does not dwell here in these physics. He is outside all physics by stahwe's account. Absurd and highly unlikely and not a person I'd choose to debate with because when pressed on a hard question he'll escape to an answer that is outside of physics and things that are unknowable. He'll always put god in the gaps and ground the infinite regression with his superhero and override logic and reason by appealing to emotion and fear all the while escaping physics by pretending it is so easily avoided.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:58 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 826
Locutus wrote:
Hello Robert,

You seem to have more patience for this stahrwe than I would have. His tactical evasiveness to astrotheology and anything to do with Acharya speaks to his weaknesses in the subject so I'd keep the pressure on him there. Otherwise he'll pull you off into some lame debate topic and play stupid about there being no allegories or hidden meanings to anything yet be himself convinced he's in Plato's cave or a star trek hollo deck simulation. For god surely does not dwell here in these physics. He is outside all physics by stahwe's account. Absurd and highly unlikely and not a person I'd choose to debate with because when pressed on a hard question he'll escape to an answer that is outside of physics and things that are unknowable. He'll always put god in the gaps and ground the infinite regression with his superhero and override logic and reason by appealing to emotion and fear all the while escaping physics by pretending it is so easily avoided.


Thanks Locutus, good comments. My patience with Stahrwe is because he represents a fundamentalist literalist Christian dogmatic view. His reactions to my comments are instructive, in that most who share his beliefs would not be willing to engage in such dialogue. You are right that it leaves him looking stupid, and that is partly my objective in including the interchange with him here. A main point though, is that the astrotheological reading of the Gospels is basically banned from polite society. Comments like mine on the loaves and fishes fall ignored like a stone.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:23 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 2289
Location: Everywhere
Hey Robert, I see that Stahrwe's still trolling up every thread at book talk. It's getting rather tiresome to continue communicating with this idiot on my end. let's see, he thinks that the sun, moon, and stars were created in Genesis 1:1 instead of the fourth day when they enter the narrative, he thinks that all of this happened before time began (matter and motion existing before time), and he thinks that God is self existent, on one hand, but that God exists outside of the realm of existence. :? And now he thinks that the loaves and fishes have nothing to do with an astrotheological allegory about the Great Year, rather a literal miracle that has nothing to do with the Great Year.

But at least you're getting the exposure you seek out of these debates. It does tend to alert common every day people to the fact that there's an astrotheological reading of the texts to be discovered and that orthodox tradition has sought to deny it for the better part of the last two thousand years. It's a matter of baby steps right now but I still think that the vast majority of people will one day understand that it's basically astrotheological all the way through. It just depends on how long it takes for these debates to become common place on the educational programming and media networks. The biblical archaeology minimalist camp is already receiving a lot of attention which ultimately roles out the red carpet for the MP to come in behind all of this. They flat out say that ancient Judaism was stellar oriented on some of these programs. They show the evidence behind such an assertion. To try and deny such a thing is to go up against solid scholarship.

And of course the same people who go up against solid scholarship in terms of the age of the earth likewise seek to refute the findings of the minimalist camp as well. And of course it's all for naught in the end. I'm glad that I've had the opportunity to witness that for myself in life and see how it all unfolds. I've literally gone from a perspective very similar to Stahrwe to knowing and understanding all of this about the bible now. I remember what it's like to push out science and discovery as some Luciferian oriented attempt at swaying the world away from God. It's a case of blocking out everything that runs contrary to dogmatic beliefs. And it's dam near impossible to get through to anyone who's locked into that state of mind. He's no different than the Mormon or Jehovah's Witness knocking at the door. Completely brainwashed into submission...

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:46 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 826
Conversation with a fundamentalist is worthwhile because the astrotheological reading of Scripture is specifically excluded from public debate by a pervasive bigotry. The status quo of dominant cultural views on religion gives far more respect and space to fundamentalist inanity than to astrotheology. It is noteworthy that we don't see others entering the discussion to enquire what it is all about, instead we just have the polarisation with throwback idiots. It seems the broader intellectual community sees little of interest in the study of whether any Biblical claims can be reconciled with modern knowledge.

You may have seen my comment in a book review on this board that a leading Anglican theologian views mythicism as the intellectual equivalent of saying the moon is made of cheese. With this appalling context of censorship of debate, it is useful to engage in dialogue with Christians to open up questioning of whether the Bible contains any rational basis.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:54 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 2289
Location: Everywhere
For you and me, who see the loaves and fishes allegory plainly clear, this is a matter of the bloody obvious. Of course this is not about a literal supernatural miracle happening twice. And reflecting back to before I had any clue that the biblical writers were using astrotheological allegories I can see how foreign this must seem from that perspective. But it's the most sensible option to those who are aware of the big picture. What a coincidence, just after all of these major astrological time line positions took place in the heavens a new hybridized mythology using the mystery school number symbolism of the stars, luminaries, planets, and zodiacal constellations just happens to appear on the scene in the form of a supernatural surface story line ushering in a new age. This really needs to be formatted into an informative youtube video with illustrations just like the southern cross and winter solstice illustrations. It's a logical explanation for the stories and I'm sure that the video would get posted around all over the place like the winter solstice nativity videos and the like. As a matter of fact PJ should have included something about the loaves and fishes allegory in ZG part 1 along with the other evidence of astrotheological lore in the bible. It's really one of the most obvious allegories right up there with the 12 foundational jewels of the New City and the Aquarius reference in Luke 22:10.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:54 am 
Offline
Thor

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:59 pm
Posts: 22
Hi Tat,

Yes, I'm surprised too that PJ didn't include the allegory of the loaves and fishes into the zeitgeist movie as that's another good reference to astrotheology in the bible. I think all of this information should be run on PBS and the discovery channel and history channel every sunday as a counter to all the religious programming. Just think how quickly things would change if every sunday people were presented the mythicist information during primetime tv. Alas, luckily we have the internet and the word is getting out there. I can't in good concious live under a self imposed delusion that the numbers so abundant and repetitive in the bible are meaningless and trivial when you learn the real meaning behind them. It doesn't take that much of a leap of faith at all to understand where these not so hidden meanings come from if one just does a bit of honest investigating. Thanks to Murdock and her books she has done a lot of the work for those seeking truth. People can start with one of her free ebooks and ease into it. I think the latest one of her free ebooks, "Zeitgeist Sourcebook" is a great place to start.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:16 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 826
Here is further information on the symbol of the fish.

From http://www.booktalk.org/post73700.html

Romans and Acts make much more sense if read as fiction than as fact. The writers of the New Testament fervently wanted to provide a story that could be believable to a mass audience. The Book of Acts is part of this myth-making, containing highly implausible accounts. A good source on these questions is Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus by Earl Doherty

The seven day creation theory is laughable as an actual account, and even contains an internal contradiction in its claim that the sun was created three days after light. Effort to avoid this main point is based on a set of false creationist premises, aimed more at patching a tottering worldview than actual dialogue or learning.

Despite these problems, I don't agree that the matter is settled. We still have the problem of what communities will come to believe after Christianity. There is much within the Bible that remains valid. The secular claim that the Bible is irrelevant and obsolete is wrong. A revised scientific Christian faith is likely to emerge as an alternative to the traditional fantasy.

I am now reading The Sign and the Seal by Graham Hancock. He presents a compelling argument that it may be historically true that the Ark of the Covenant was taken to Ethiopia soon after the reign of Solomon. Hancock's method in exploring this outlandish claim is impeccably scientific. He goes to original source documents and locations and researches in depth in epics such as Parzifal and locations such as Chartres Cathedral to try to find out answers to his questions. This forensic style uses the best available tools of historical research. Hancock finds that the Knights Templar, who controlled the Temple Mount in Jerusalem for a century in the middle ages, provide an apparent link to this cryptic story of the presence of the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia. It shows that generally accepted ideas are often ill-informed, and that new research can deliver startling findings, if we apply sceptical and logical methods.

One of Hancock's points is that Wolfram, the author of Parzifal apparently laid down clues about Ethiopia and the Biblical Ark of the Covenant in his text, with the intention of concealing them in a popular narrative and transmitting them in code to future generations.

It seems to me that the authors of the Bible did the same thing. They above all wanted to write a book that would be plausible to a mass audience, but could see that their main messages, of continuity with ancient mythology, were not amenable to the temper of the times and had to be concealed in a book that would preserve them until more enlightened days.

An example I gave in discussing The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy was the fish story in John 21, where Jesus tells them where to cast and they catch 153 fish. 153 is a quasi-magical number, used by Archimedes to make the Christian fish, which has a length to width ratio of root three, very close to 265/153. No ratios using smaller numbers are closer to the actual dimension. The number 153 is a symbol for the width of the Christian Ichthys fish. Similar analysis shows a cosmic ground for the holy city of Revelation in the physics of the Great Year.

Thought of this style is anathema to fundamentalist literal accounts of the Bible. Yet, once we start to read the text against a mythic cosmic framework, it all begins to fall into place. The mathematical symbolic language of groups such as the Pythagoreans informed the Biblical authors, but the hostility to such language was so intense that the authors elected to obscure their real meaning by code. So, it is far from settled that the epistemic status of the Bible is resolved. Yes, inerrancy is wrong, but that is just the start of an interpretative analysis.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:49 am 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 2289
Location: Everywhere
Locutus wrote:
Hi Tat,

Yes, I'm surprised too that PJ didn't include the allegory of the loaves and fishes into the zeitgeist movie as that's another good reference to astrotheology in the bible. I think all of this information should be run on PBS and the discovery channel and history channel every sunday as a counter to all the religious programming. Just think how quickly things would change if every sunday people were presented the mythicist information during primetime tv. Alas, luckily we have the internet and the word is getting out there. I can't in good concious live under a self imposed delusion that the numbers so abundant and repetitive in the bible are meaningless and trivial when you learn the real meaning behind them. It doesn't take that much of a leap of faith at all to understand where these not so hidden meanings come from if one just does a bit of honest investigating. Thanks to Murdock and her books she has done a lot of the work for those seeking truth. People can start with one of her free ebooks and ease into it. I think the latest one of her free ebooks, "Zeitgeist Sourcebook" is a great place to start.


Hey Locutus, perhaps that day will come. "The Bible Unearthed", and "The Bible's Buried Secrets" have already aired and give quite an accurate telling of the lack of evidence for any historical Abrahamic migration or the Exodus. The fact that ancient Judaism was a polytheistic stellar oriented Elohim based religious practice is flat out discussed as well.




So this material is certainly inching its way into mainstream programming. Hopefully the ZG Sourcebook makes its way around the web too in all of this.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:44 pm 
Offline
Thor

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:59 pm
Posts: 22
Robert, I haven't read that book by Hancock but I've watched their videos on the sphinx which I thought were very good.

All this talk about fishes and coded messeges for a future generation reminds me of the post from Descartes about Jesus as the pythagorean theorem. I'm curious as to why you never commented in that thread since it' seems so loaded with vesica piscis symbolism information?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:58 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 826
Locutus wrote:
Robert, I haven't read that book by Hancock but I've watched their videos on the sphinx which I thought were very good.

All this talk about fishes and coded messeges for a future generation reminds me of the post from Descartes about Jesus as the pythagorean theorem. I'm curious as to why you never commented in that thread since it' seems so loaded with vesica piscis symbolism information?


Thank you Tat and Locutus. I have scrolled through the wonderful and deep thread by Descartes at Gematria: Jesus Christ is the Pythagorean Theorem

Here are some comments from it.


Descartes wrote:
I just want to add that I was pretty skeptical of all sacred geometry thing until I discovered this. I know how easy is to find correlations in images, numbers or architecture.

In researching the truth we need a strong heuristic and require that any thesis is backed by MULTIPLE, SOLID, UNBIASED and INDEPENDENT sources.

My thesis is behaving well so far:

MULTIPLE: all four gospels directly, the christian bishop St. Irenæus (2nd century AD - c. 202) discusses at length the Gnostic numerical interpretation of the holy name Jesus as the equivalent of 888 (Haer., I, viii, 5 and 12, and II, xxxiv, 4), historians like Plutarch, Iamblichus and others link the sacred triangle, the pythagorean school, the egyptian sun gods and the allegoric stories like that of the 153 fishes. We got gnostic sources worshipping the number 888, like Magus: "Blessed be the invisible 888, eternal and ungenerated, uncontainable and without companion. Blessed be the Holy Sophia, who created Desire by her longing for the 888. Blessed be the 888, the Limit and the Cross, who purifies the Mother and awaits the Daughter."

SOLID: We have the original gospels papyri written in greek, the writing of Iraneus, Plutarch and Iamblichus in the greek original and in latin. We have the repeated mathematical pattern of the name Jesus Christ, matching that of the pythagorean triangle, a very unlikely occurence. We found the sacred triangular pattern and the 37° angle in the catholic churches and cathedrals built by the catholic church itself.

UNBIASED: the majority of sources are unbiased. The gospels are the original source of christianity. Irenæus had nothing against christianity, and Plutarch didn't even know it yet. The cathedrals with all the numerical and geometrical patterns referring to the sacred triad and the vesica piscis were built by the catholic church itself. All Egyptian monuments and drawings were pre-christians. The only potentially biased writer is Iamblichus, being a pythagorean and a neo-platonic.

INDEPENDENT: Plutarch never read gospels because they didn't existed yet. Egyptian monuments and drawings predate christianity by millennia. The pythagorean doctrine originated with the figure of "Pythagoras the Samian", or simply Ὁ Πυθαγόρας; born between 580 and 572 BC, died between 500 and 490 BC, well before christianity. Archimedes confirms that the "measurement of the fish" value was 153 (Archimedes of Syracuse, On the Measurement of the Circle).

Here is the original greek of the passage of Irenaeus about the value 888 in the name of Jesus:

Image
source: link

Interesting enough in the greek even if Irenaeus said that the value of the name of jesus is 888 he uses an abbreviated form of the name of jesus, ιησου , that value 688 and not 888 like in the regular Jesus greek name (Ιησους).

This abbreviated form is found in the gospels in some passages, like in Mat 1:1 , see the original text here:

http://www.biblewheel.com/Gr/GR_Databas ... m=1&vnum=1

but it is always near a different spelling of the word Christ, χριστου, that amount to gematria 1680 instead of the regular value of 1480 (Χριστος), we found for example in: Mat 1:16 , see:

http://www.biblewheel.com/Gr/GR_Databas ... =1&vnum=16

But if you sum both versions you got the same gematric value:

Jesus + Christ (full) = Ιησους + Χριστος = 888 + 1480 = 2368
Jesus + Christ (abbreviated) = ιησου + χριστου = 688 + 1680 = 2368

So the abbreviated version of the name of Jesus used by Irenaeus was an alternative abbreviated spelling of the original name Ιησους, that Irenaeus himself confirms being of value 888.
Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
Descartes wrote:
Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
So perhaps in their minds there was no need to allow the majority access to high knowledge and having an elite system of knowledge preservation would be essential while approaching the end of the Great Year in the age of Aries and the dark ages that would follow along into the age of Pisces.


I don't believe that they are preserving and hiding knowledge for some "mystical" reason. They are just preserving it because with this system of hidden astronomical symbolism they are controlling a lot of simple minded people, both outside of their circles and inside their lower ranks, and using it as an allegory to a political and social change made by them, not by "the stars". The elite certainly doesn't literally believe that a simple physical phenomenon like the precession of the equinoxes influences somehow the destiny of humanity. They are smarter than that.


That's a good way of looking at it. It's very true that these political and social changes are made by them, not the stars, but then again they tend to base the timing and mode of their political and social changes accordingly with the stars. They seem to be concerned with the changing of the "ages" and the new age of Aquarius to come - as well as this 'great task' they have to accomplish. The thing is, if the elite are making changes based on the symbolism of ancient lore concerning the stars, well then the stars are in fact having an effect on the earth via the elite making very conscious social and political changes according to the star positions of the heavens. The stars are effecting life on earth after all in this sense.

When the sun crossed over into the first fish of Pisces, changes were made here on the earth in keeping with that astrological change. The first cosmic winter sign of precession became dominant in the sky and then coincidentally society fell into the depths of the dark ages in keeping with the "as above so below" philosophy of old. Granted, the elite may have consciously and intentionally 'caused' the dark ages to come into fruition, but they did so in keeping with what they saw happening above in the sky. It's not as if we entered the first cosmic winter sign of precession and then the elite 'caused' a time of high knowledge, wealth, and prosperity, and longer life spans for all, the very opposite occurred in keeping with ancient lore surrounding the Great Year and it's 'cosmic winter'.

What I'm looking at here is that the allegories, which are meant to be understood by the elite and not the average joe, point directly at the time frame of 2150 CE (Aquarius-Leo) through symbolism and emphasize dramatic change aimed at that time frame and there may be those who have plans to act accordingly, hence a reason for why some speak of a future reconciliation and yet they're seemingly waiting around and dragging their feet in certain cases:

Quote:
"Jehova will redeem humanity by revealing those secrets which he previously reserved only for the elect. [...] The whole world shall become as one book and all the contradictions of science and theology shall be reconciled." - source: Confessio Fraternitatis (1614)


This sounds like someone in the 'know' speaking about the changes that will be made on the earth around "the very end of the age" (Pisces-Aquarius cusp). :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:50 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 2289
Location: Everywhere
Locutus wrote:
All this talk about fishes and coded messeges for a future generation reminds me of the post from Descartes about Jesus as the pythagorean theorem.

Thanks for bringing up that old thread Locutus. I'm not sure how it escaped Robert either. I found this especially interesting:
Descartes wrote:
How could I've missed it! According to gematria:

Moses = משה = 345

So in the Bible we have:

Exo 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

MOSES name is 345
and God's name ("I AM THAT I AM" = אהיה אשר אהיה ) is 21+501+21 = 543

345-543

..god's secret name is the very mirror reflection of Moses name gematric value! The pythagorean triple 3, 4, 5 is then used as a symbol of a god-like man, having mastered the supreme law of mathematics. Another proof that Moses is not an historical character but a symbolic one.

And this is even better:

345+543 = 888 (greek gematria for Jesus, Ιησους)

Image

...Jesus Christ is not only a solar deity, but he incorporates the most important rule of the sacred geometry used by astronomers to measure and by architects to build: The Pythagorean Theorem...


Descartes wrote:
I've made another interesting discovery. I was asking myself: why if the alexandrinians coded the holy pythagorean triangle in the name Jesus Christ, the most recurrent symbol associated with Jesus is the Vesica Piscis?

After a while I discovered that the Vesica Piscis is needed to the geometric
construction of the holy triangle! Let me explain...

The pythagorean school used only the square and the compass to draw their geometric figures. The vesica piscis was one of the most important tool because it allow to draw lines that are perpendicular (ortogonal) to each others.

Originally a primitive compass (sometimes made by a stick and a rope) was also used to found the north-south axis in drawing the four reference points around the solar gnomons sundials:

Image

Image

Repeated for many circles, it can be used to create a pattern useful for drawing perfect geometric figures:

Image
Image
Image

The vesica piscis is also the grid used to draw the kabalistic sephiroth tree or the tree of life:

Image

And the common rombus floor in churches is also based on the vesica piscis proportions:

Image

And it can be used to form a reptilian eye shape:

Image

Jesus is often depicted in the Vesica Piscis:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

And many christian cathedrals are built using the vesica piscis proportions, like the Cathedral of Beauvais:

Image

Even the christian symbol of the fish is based on the vesica piscis:

Image

And the zodiacal sign of the fishes, the sign where the sun god jesus christ
rises at the spring equinox in the age of the fishes, got a new symbol using the vesica piscis as the basis:

Image

At the Mary Chapel of Glastonsuby Abbey (the abbey where, as we said, are encoded the proportions of the gematria of "You Have Known Jesus Christ" aka the holy triangle 3 4 5), we found the vesica piscis proportions:

Image
Image
Image

THE SOLUTION TO THE ENIGMA

So, what is the connection between the pythagorean holy triangle 3 4 5 of Jesus Christ and the Vesica Piscis? Let's start with the vesica piscis:

Image

If we use the following geometric construction, we can build the holy pythagorean triangle from the vesica piscis in few steps and with only square and compass:

Image

The key of the constructon is the cross formed in the circle in the right (but you can do it in the left circle, is the same result). That cross is very particular, and it is the cross with the proportions used by many church crosses and even by the logo of the chatolic prelature Opus Dei:

Image

You can also see how the "Holy Grail", the mythical gold cup filled with the blood of jesus, was nothing more than a reference to a shape inside the vesica piscis construction of the Jesus Christ triangle 3 4 5:

Image

In freemasonry we found the vesica piscis directly linked to the pythagorean theorem:

Image

And of course right in the middle of the Washington gnomon obelisk we found the vesica piscis, but probably as a reference to the construction of the ancient gnomon circle for the sundial as shown at the beginning of this post:

Image

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:24 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:41 pm
Posts: 826
Locutus wrote:
All this talk about fishes and coded messages for a future generation reminds me of the post from Descartes about Jesus as the pythagorean theorem. I'm curious as to why you never commented in that thread since it seems so loaded with vesica piscis symbolism information?

The Pythagorean reading shows that that early Christians used the mystical numerology of gematria, treating letters as numbers and adding their totals, as poetic support for their choice of words. I confess I have not found gematria very helpful as a guide to my own understanding of astrotheology, but can see that it is an important part of the ancient religious worldview. Noting that Irenaeus made mention of the 888 total of Jesus Christ, it is worth also noting that Irenaeus, with his book Against Heresies, was a main coordinator of orthodoxy against gnosis. Irenaeus promoted the four-gospel doctrine of the literal historical Christ against the mythic view that Christ is primarily a spiritual mystery. So gematria can be a way of introducing mystery into the text through numerology while missing the deeper mystery of the cosmic story.

John Michell is a main modern thinker on gematria. His 1972 book City of Revelation: On the Proportions and Symbolic Numbers of the Cosmic Temple argues that the numbers 1080 and 666 are encoded in the Bible by gematria to represent good and evil. 666 represents human control, while 1080, the number of years in the Platonic cosmic hour when the Great Year is seen as a day, symbolises human ability to engage with cosmic mystery. Michell argues the real meaning of cosmic myth is accessible only near the turning points of the ages. I found the relation between the twelve jewels and the Great Year independently, but was very pleased recently to read in City of Revelation that Michell had earlier seen that the twelve jewels of Revelation are a coded description of the precession of the equinox. Expanding the wiki on City of Revelation would be a useful project - at the moment it only mentions the 153 fish of John 21 as intentionally constructed upon an underlying geometry.

The cosmic meaning of the loaves and fishes is a distinctive theme to show the difference between the authentic cosmic faith of the Gospels and the inauthentic historical faith of orthodox Christianity. When the texts are read in view of the cosmic framework of precession, the comment from Jesus that his disciples do not understand the loaves and fishes becomes of central importance. The apparent socio-historical problem was that the Great Year framework for religion was simply too complicated for general understanding at the time of Christ, even though it provides a simple and elegant explanation of time. The Great Year provides an exact temporal context for the loaves and fishes as markers of a new creative abundance. However, only the literal historical miracle could be generally understood in the prevailing low level of spiritual awareness. The Gospel writers included the loaves and fishes miracle as a coded reference to precession.

Our situation now is that we have ready access to information on the astrophysics of the Great Year, so can see how precession provides the temporal structure of the earth as the period of the spin wobble. Looking at the history of religion, the Gospels and Revelation are decisive texts in bringing the Great Year into human awareness. However, due to the fallen nature of human culture, the cosmic message at the heart of Christianity has been utterly smothered by error and delusion. Restoration of cosmic vision is central to the emerging path of ascending spiritual awareness.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:59 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:17 pm
Posts: 2289
Location: Everywhere
Robert Tulip wrote:
Looking at the history of religion, the Gospels and Revelation are decisive texts in bringing the Great Year into human awareness. However, due to the fallen nature of human culture, the cosmic message at the heart of Christianity has been utterly smothered by error and delusion. Restoration of cosmic vision is central to the emerging path of ascending spiritual awareness.

This is well stated.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loaves and fishes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:07 am 
Offline
Thor

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:59 pm
Posts: 22
Thanks Robert for your thoughtful reply. I don't see gematria pointing to zodiac astrotheology either but the sheer abundance of loose correlations causes one to pause. Perhaps I'll see if Descartes can chime in over at his thread on the subject and see if he has fleshed out more of his idea. I haven't seen him around here in a long while.

I think you are right to point out the prime importance of carefully making sure to read the astrotheology meaning of the parable of the loaves and fishes and not the literal meaning. In this parable we have the numbers 2,5,7 and 12 and virgo pisces as a time frame about abundance. As Tat said this seems so bloody obvious when you know what to look for. Name another area of the bible where Jeses talks so plainly about why he keeps things hidden, who can know the real meanings and why. If we don't pay attention to this area and see if the astrotheology matches and makes sense here well then much doubt might remain about the validity of such a code.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Truth Be Known | Stellar House Publishing
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Live Support