From http://www.booktalk.org/the-really-big- ... t9060.html
Robert Tulip wrote:
I'm talking here specifically of the instances where he is said to have fed congregations of 4000 and 5000.
I was asked this question by a christian I was talking with and the only reply I had for him was "Good question, I'll get back to you. Your argument seems a reasonable one to me." Well here is the argument: Why weren't there accusations against the accuracy of these accounts that happened, supposedly, in front of so many people? IOW if I was to claim I fed 5000 people out of basically thin air it could be easily disproven. Why hasn't this happened with the Biblical accounts?
1) I'm not sure that there weren't contemporary attacks on the accuracy of the mass feedings. Does anyone here have any info regarding this?
2) I'm not sure how well-known the claims were or even when they actually originated. If they didn't originate until years after his death then obviously a valid suspicion of stated events is in order. If the claims were contemporary with the supposed events then how widespread was the message initially? IOW does it perhaps make sense for there to be no attacks on them even if the claims were presented in a timely manner?
This miracle appears six times in the Gospels, so is rather central to Christianity. The 5000 and 4000 are the visible stars, the two fishes are the sun and moon, the five loaves are the five visible planets. Production of abundance from nothing signifies the cosmic movement of the equinoxes at the time of Christ into the signs of Virgo and Pisces, symbolised by bread and fish. Spica, the main star of Virgo, symbolises an ear of wheat. The September equinox point moved past Spica at the time of Christ. The first fish of Pisces is a line of stars across the zodiac that the March equinox point reached at the time of Christ.
Robert Tulip wrote:
Perhaps the feeding of the five thousand started life as a parable, a bit like the wheat and weeds, and morphed into a miracle because people liked it so much. The explanation of the parable is as per my last post. But this cosmic explanation is not acceptable to the anti-naturalism of orthodox theology, so was expunged from the record, leaving only the miraculous trace...
Robert Tulip wrote:
The feeding of the multitude appears six times in the Gospels:
Matthew 14: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
Matthew 15: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
Mark 6: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
Mark 8: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
Luke 9: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
John 6: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
In addition, the catching of the multitude of fishes appears twice:
Luke 5: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
John 21: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
and twice more without the miracle:
Matthew 4: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
Mark 1: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
Traditional interpretations of these passages are entirely cryptic, reliant on a supernatural messianic miracle. The question I have asked is if there could be some hidden meaning encoded in this central main miracle of the story of Jesus. An abundance of obvious clues point to this story of the loaves and fishes as a parable of the cosmic wheel of the Great Year. There is no 'free pass' required to explore the possible scientific status of this interpretation. I would be happy to analyse the texts line by line to test this claim.
Robert Tulip wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:
I would be happy to analyse the texts line by line to test this claim.
I'm not following what you're talking about - but yes, go ahead.
Thanks Kevin. Of the six occurrences of the bread and fish miracle in the Gospels, the most interesting is at Mark 8
1 In those days the multitude being very great, and having nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples unto him, and saith unto them,
2 I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now been with me three days, and have nothing to eat:
3 And if I send them away fasting to their own houses, they will faint by the way: for divers of them came from far.
4 And his disciples answered him, From whence can a man satisfy these men with bread here in the wilderness?
5 And he asked them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven.
6 And he commanded the people to sit down on the ground: and he took the seven loaves, and gave thanks, and brake, and gave to his disciples to set before them; and they did set them before the people.
7 And they had a few small fishes: and he blessed, and commanded to set them also before them.
8 So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets.
9 And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away.
10 And straightway he entered into a ship with his disciples, and came into the parts of Dalmanutha.
11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.
15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?
After miraculously feeding 4000 men and their families, Jesus contradictorily tells the Pharisees that 'no sign shall be given to this generation'. If spontaneous generation of bread and fish for so many people is not a sign, I am not sure what is. Surely if he was quizzed as per this text, he could easily point to the sign he has just performed, and say 'you want a sign, here is a sign.' Jesus instead seems to say this apparent miracle was not a sign for this generation, implying that it must be something else. He then goes on to berate his disciples for their failure to see, hear, remember and understand what he is talking about. The implication is that the real meaning of his comments is a mystery, one he struggles to communicate.
Possible explanations are that the loaves and fishes miracle is a sign for a later generation, and that it is intended as a parable, a symbolic story that points to a deeper meaning. Its presence six times in the gospels suggests this miracle is central to Christianity, but we find the disturbing problem that Jesus tells his disciples it was not a sign and that they don't have a clue what it means.
In the midst of this public miracle that is not a sign, we find an abundance of precise cosmic images regarding the Age of Pisces. Loaves and fishes are symbols for the signs of Virgo and Pisces. Over the 2000 years since Christ, Easter Week has occurred when the sun is in the constellation of Pisces and the full Moon in the constellation of Virgo, by virtue of the link between Easter, the equinox, the moon and the precession. This planetary alignment at the rebirth of the year each spring marks the slow shift of the stars in a period known as the Great Year, the 25765 year long cycle caused by the wobble of the axis of the earth.
The symbol of Pisces is two fish, and a symbol of Virgo is bread. The miracle/parable says abundance can be created from meager resources, using symbols of the sun and moon at the resurrection as markers of the dawning age of Pisces-Virgo, the age of fishers of men and the holy virgin.
Mark's earlier version of the story at 6:41, says when Jesus "had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all." This specific mention of looking up to heaven, also present in Matthew's version, is suggestive of a cosmic meaning for the story. Jesus goes on to explain that what the disciples do not comprehend is why there are twelve and seven baskets of fragments from his two performances of the miracle. These numbers are main allegories for the twelve signs of the zodiac and the seven visible planets including sun and moon.
The most logical explanation for this story is that it is a cosmic allegory, describing a new spiritual power available from the spirit of the new cosmic age, symbolised by the signs of loaves and fishes moving past the cosmic axis of the equinoxes. As well as the core meaning of the signs of Pisces and Virgo, the two fishes symbolise the sun and moon, the five loaves are the visible planets, the 4000 or 5000 multitude are the visible stars, and the twelve baskets are the signs of the zodiac
We see here a prime example of the literary trope of encoding a secret message in an overt message, with the intention that the overt message, aimed for popular consumption, should protect and distribute the more important secret message. The overt message is that the story is a miracle. The secret message is that it is a cosmic parable describing messianic identity in terms of the slow wheeling of the heavens.
Robert Tulip wrote:
Robert; First, the fish and loaves were not spontaneously generated, they were multiplied from the existing items.
Second, you claim to read the text but then pervert it. The verse you quoted reads: "11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him." Then you proceed to drop the most important word, 'heaven' and start referring to the fish and bread as a sign. Well, it wasn't a sign, it was a miracle. Who was it performed for? It benefited the people but we only see that the disciples were aware of it. Where did the miracle come from? Not heaven, it came from Jesus. You are very confused.
The question here is how to compare rival explanations. Traditional Christians say that Jesus broke the laws of physics through enormous miracles which fed tens of thousands of people but somehow failed to get noticed in the historical record. I am simply trying to explain the text in a way that is compatible with modern rational observation. Traditional Christians have an emotional barrier about looking at the evidence regarding the cosmic story in the Bible because it is not compatible with their dogmatic beliefs. These dogmas are more about securing the secular power of the church than supporting genuine understanding and enquiry. My explanation of the loaves and fishes shows a possible and likely meaning in the bizarre dialogue in Mark 8 that I quoted above where Jesus despairs about why his disciples don't understand the numbers seven and twelve. The story is a parable for the cosmic redemption through the Great Year, not a historic record of events. If all the Bible is analysed through this lens it starts to make perfect sense, including the prediction of 'the end of the age' as applying to the cosmic framework of precession of the equinox.
Robert Tulip wrote:
there are not rival explanations. There is what the Bible says, and then there is some far out attempt to read your philosophy into it. One problem with doing that is that it opens the text up to mean anything anyone wants it to say reducing it from even story status to meaningless prattle and confusion.
Who is really confused here? Stahrwe tries to support ‘what the Bible says’, but this leads him to a literal reading of miracles, and the claim that the Bible shows that God contradicts the laws of physics.
I say everything true in the Bible must be compatible with the laws of physics. Against this rational lens, we find there is no proof for the existence of Jesus Christ as described in the Bible, and that the most parsimonious and elegant explanation is that a hidden cosmic religion is concealed within the surface story of the Gospels. ‘Parsimony’
is a scientific term, meaning “ the use of the simplest or most frugal route of explanation available”. Parsimony is closely linked to elegance
, for example in a proof that is “surprisingly simple yet effective and constructive” or a solution that “uses a non-obvious method to produce a solution which is highly effective and simple. An elegant solution may solve multiple problems at once, especially problems not thought to be inter-related.”
Why is the cosmic story only in code? From Exodus, the high priest of Israel wore a breastpiece
that Josephus and Philo say represented the twelve signs of the zodiac. However, as Israel came in conflict with pagan religion, prophets opposed worship of the hosts of heaven, separating Yahweh from nature. Jesus stood in continuity with the esoteric tradition of the high priest breastplate that sees God as revealed in the zodiac, but this core message of salvation was suppressed in the political battle between Judeo-Christian monotheism and pagan polytheism.
Reading the New Testament with a view to finding cosmic references produces a great abundance of coherent references that are based on observation of precession of the equinox, linking the Age of Pisces to the history of the church and the Age of Aquarius to the Second Coming.
As we do not know if Jesus really lived, we cannot know if the Aquarian Christ, due in 2150, will be the first incarnation or the second. If Jesus lived in Palestine at the BC/AD turning point, the Aquarian Christ will be a second incarnation. If Jesus was an invention, the Aquarian Christ will be a first incarnation, compatible with the Jewish refusal to accept the messianic status of Jesus.
This cosmic interpretation provides a parsimonious and elegant reading of the Bible, opening a path to restore the dignity and meaning of the book. The real confusion rests in the literal apologist claim that God works in ways other than through the laws of physics.
You have two problems which lead you to this confusion:
1) you refuse to believe that miracles are possible,
2) you are a victim of gnosticism (special, hidden or esoteric knowledge). It has a huge appeal because it elevates the gnostic above the rest of the rabble.
But as Sigmund once said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" and I am afraid that in this case there is obviously no hidden meaning.
So Stahrwe, you wish to remain among the rabble, denying the existence of any higher wisdom in gnosis. This has been a useful and effective church tactic to mobilise the faithful against the rational. Belief in miracles is central to this deceptive delusory church doctrine. Miracles are not possible.
You deny, astoundingly, that the loaves and fishes story contains hidden meaning. Jesus himself says in this passage at Mark 8:21 “How is it that ye do not understand?” indicating that there is a hidden meaning, so there is a dose of rhetoric in your assertion that Jesus himself is “obviously’ wrong.
You are saying ‘a fish is just a fish’ and ‘loaves are just loaves’. This is despite the objective fact that these are symbols of Pisces and Virgo, the equinoctial signs of the fishes and the virgin, which became central symbols of the church. Somehow, despite the clear instruction of Christ that parables are told to convey hidden meaning, Stahrwe says the miracle of the loaves and fishes has no hidden meaning.
13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side. 14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf. 15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?
It is amazing that having just witnessed what Jesus did, they were still concerned because they were short of provisions. But that is human nature. We read about a providential event in someone's life and think that will never happen to us. Anyway, in case you missed it, here is the relevant part of Mark 8 again. It is bread, not stars or equinoxes or teacups in space or leprachauns, just bread.
Of course, just like communion, bread is just bread and has no symbolic meaning.
Except that the equinox has moved through the sign of bread (Virgo) since the time of Christ, and the explanation of the Age used throughout the New Testament means only the Zodiacal Age, consistent with ancient hidden Jewish tradition. The zodiac signs on the High Priest breastplate appear again in the holy city of new Jerusalem in the Revelation, where they are the twelve foundation stones of the holy city starting at Pisces and going through to Aries, just like the Great Year.