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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:43 am 
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Naturally ! :| They need to continue the show

Acharya wrote:
Sorry, I didn't see your comment before, Balu. I didn't know that about the author and the AIT, and I don't know if the book has a "know-it-all" air about it, but such a mentality within academia as a whole is not surprising.

balu wrote:
Witzel is one of the last few survivors passionately propping up the Aryan Invasion theory of India. So his books will be definitely selling well with generous help from the mainstream historians, christian missionary outfits and politically correct "experts"!

Is the tone of the book somewhat with a nose in the air "I know it all" type?

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Just as milk is of only one colour though obtained from cows of different colours so also the peculiarities of different religious thoughts lead to the same one ultimate truth - Mahabharatha


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:19 pm 
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On another discussion board the question was raised of the main reasons that Christianity took hold among early Jews.

My opinion is that the main reasons are found in politics and cosmology.

Christianity emerged among the Jews as a means of subverting Roman imperialism, in the wake of the catastrophic destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. In the construction of a Common Era, the Pax Romana provided a military rule grounded in the suppression of cultural diversity, despite Rome’s specious claims to allow freedom of worship. The Jews sought means to destroy the moral legitimacy of Rome in ways that would not bring a repeat of the wrath of the legions. A group of Jews found a way to assert their cultural dignity in alliance with Hellenistic religious groups with the construction of the myth of Jesus Christ, the one for all who represented the suffering of the entire Jewish people under the Roman conquest, making peace by the blood of his cross.

In asserting that Christ was Lord, Christians rejected the temporal Lordship of Caesar, but in such a way as to maintain an impression of loyalty, through texts such as ‘render unto Caesar’ and ‘be subject to the governing authorities’. This imperial loyalty was initially a veneer, concealing a cold spiritual fury at Roman moral degeneracy, violence, stupidity and desecration of the holy places.

The construction of the Christ story drew from several wells. Firstly, midrash took the messianic prophecies of the Old Testament as the template. Within this Jewish frame of historic prophecy of Jesse’s branch, old saviour ideas from other cultures were incorporated, such as from Horus, Krishna and Dionysus, with the ancient archetype of resurrection of the saviour from the dead symbolising the annual cycle of spring replacing winter. The context for this construction of the Christ Myth was the high wisdom of the secret societies of mystery worship, notably the Jewish Nazarenes and the Jewish-Buddhist Therapeuts, articulated through Platonic idealism from Greece.

The timing of the Christ story was determined on the basis of a core religious mystery heuristic, that God’s will should be done on earth as it is in heaven, in the line from the Lord’s Prayer drawn from the Emerald Tablets of Thoth, ‘as above so below’. This timing of the appearance of Christ in the heavens was determined by a simple scientific observation from ancient astronomy, that the sun’s position at the beginning of spring precessed from its traditional place in Aries into Pisces, from first to last, in 21 AD, during the rule of Pilate. Cosmology drove the imagination of history.

Hence we see the cosmic basis for core Christian ideas including the alpha and omega, the word made flesh, the eternal logos or cosmic reason, and numerous other Biblical tropes including the loaves and fishes, the covenant of grace replacing law, the holy city, the tree of life, the moon at the woman’s feet, the dragon in heaven, and the 7000 year eschatology. All these ideas are purely natural scientific cosmic symbols, requiring no miraculous or supernatural explanation.

The cosmic basis for the Christ myth was so successfully suppressed, ignored, forgotten and denied by the triumphant later orthodox Roman supernatural co-option that we have almost lost all memory of the real natural origins, apart from the abundant fugitive traces in ancient texts and symbols. Reconstructing these forensic fragments requires a defiance of the unrepentant evil alienated psychology of anti-heresy, so we can recognise that the story of Jesus Christ remains central to human politics as the explanation of our fall from grace and our potential for redemption, divinising nature in the building of a new heaven on earth.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:42 am 
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From Will and Ariel Durant, “The Story of Civilization”*Vol 3 Chapter 27

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization

Quote:
Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. The Greek mind dying, came to a transmigrated life in the theology and liturgy of the Church; the Greek language, having reigned for centuries over philosophy, became the vehicle of Christian literature and ritual; the Greek mysteries passed down into the impressive mystery of the Mass. Other pagan cultures contributed to the syncretist result. From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity, the Last Judgement, and a personal immortality of reward and punishment; from Egypt the adoration of the Mother and Child, and the mystic theosophy that made Neoplatonism and Gnosticism, and obscured the Christian creed; there, too, Christian monasticism would find its exemplars and its source. From Phrygia came the worship of the Great Mother; from Syria the resurrection drama of Adonis; from Thrace, perhaps the cult of Dionysus, the dying and saving god. From Persia came millenarianism, the "ages of the world," the "final conflagration," the dualism of Satan and God, of Darkness and Light; already in the Fourth Gospel Christ is the "Light shining in the darkness, and the darkness has never put it out." The Mithraic ritual so closely resembled the Eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass that Christian fathers charged the Devil with inventing these imilarities to mislead frail minds. Christianity was the last great creation of the ancient pagan world."


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:29 am 
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Well then what are the major alternatives for it? :) This is really interesting...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:23 pm 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:

The further one regresses in time, the more obvious it becomes that the principal and singular religious worship found around the globe has revolved around nature.

There are hieroglyphic and cuneiform script texts of great antiquity.
Can you quote some passages in support of the above assertion?
Thanks to these texts we know exactly what people believed and it was not nature and its elements.
The gods became natural powers when the idiotic idealist philosophers invented the allegorical interpretation.
The people, the lay people, believed that the gods were raping common women and were producing “sons of gods” (they still so believe, of course) but that was not to the liking of the philosophers so they preached that the gods were the elements of nature.
Naturally, the people then were taught their religion by their community, their folklore, and were told of the evil deeds of the gods and so they were terrified of the gods. If they believed their gods to be the elements of nature would have been terrified at the approach of a storm not when approaching the temples.

I suggest that you read Plutarch’s “On Superstition”

Plato, who could not bring himself to believe the allegorical nonsense, forbade the teaching of Homer and the myths of the ancient Greeks according to which Zeus was raping one woman after the other.

Philosophizing about the beliefs of the ancients is entirely worthless. Their words, their beliefs, are at our disposal. We know exactly what the people believed and what the philosophers and theologians later taught them to believe.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Dimitrios wrote:
Freethinkaluva22 wrote:

The further one regresses in time, the more obvious it becomes that the principal and singular religious worship found around the globe has revolved around nature.

There are hieroglyphic and cuneiform script texts of great antiquity.
Can you quote some passages in support of the above assertion?

That wasn't my comment, it was a quote:

Quote:
The further one regresses in time, the more obvious it becomes that the principal and singular religious worship found around the globe has revolved around nature. This nature worship has included reverence not only for the earth, its creatures and their fecundity, but also for the sun, moon, planets and stars. For many thousands of years, man has looked to the skies and become awestruck by what he has observed. This awe has led to the reverence and worship both of the night and day skies, an adoration called "astrotheology." While fertility worship has constituted an important and prevalent part of the human religion, little has astonished humankind more than the sky, with its enormous, blazing, white day orb in the azure expanse, and with its infinite, twinkling, black night dome. So fascinated by the sky, or heavens, has been man that he has created entire religions, with organized priesthoods, complex rituals and massive edifices, in order to tell its story.

- Astrotheology of the Ancients

We are not going to waste any time on you if you continue to refuse to read the links already posted in this very thread. As far as I'm concerned you're just another troll at this point after trolling in every thread you've posted in thus far. We don't have time for this crap.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Dimitrios wrote:
Freethinkaluva22 wrote:

The further one regresses in time, the more obvious it becomes that the principal and singular religious worship found around the globe has revolved around nature.

There are hieroglyphic and cuneiform script texts of great antiquity.
Can you quote some passages in support of the above assertion?
Thanks to these texts we know exactly what people believed and it was not nature and its elements.
The gods became natural powers when the idiotic idealist philosophers invented the allegorical interpretation.
The people, the lay people, believed that the gods were raping common women and were producing “sons of gods” (they still so believe, of course) but that was not to the liking of the philosophers so they preached that the gods were the elements of nature.


Since you invoked the Pyramid Texts in the other thread, I shall do so again here. These date back to the 24th century BCE, and their origins even earlier than that. They are the oldest religious texts currently extant from Egypt. They far predate the trend of philosophers allegorizing myths. They also needed no such interpreting, for they explicitly state their gods are the Sun(Atum, Re, Khepri), Wind(Shu and Amun), Sky(Nut), Earth(Geb), Nile(Hapi), and Stars(Osiris=Sah/Orion, Isis=Sothis/Sirius, Horus=Sopd, etc., etc.).

Interestingly though, the tend to do as you are doing- humanizing the gods- was a tend started by...

a philosopher. :wink:
Euhemerus, to be precise.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:11 am 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
Since you invoked the Pyramid Texts in the other thread, I shall do so again here. These date back to the 24th century BCE, and their origins even earlier than that. They are the oldest religious texts currently extant from Egypt. They far predate the trend of philosophers allegorizing myths. They also needed no such interpreting, for they explicitly state their gods are the Sun(Atum, Re, Khepri),...

Let us see what the Pyramid Texts say about Atum the... Sun god!!

An inscription found in slightly variant forms in the pyramids of Pepi I, Merenra, and Pepi II, states that:

Atum is he who (once) came into being, who masturbated in On. He took his phallus in his grasp that he might create orgasm by means of it, and so were born the twins Shu and Tefenet. (Utt. 527 §1248)

As for Re or Ra, the most famous of the Sun gods, he performed circumcision on him self:

The blood which fell from the phallus of Re when he took to cutting himself.
(The Book of the Dead, Papyrus of Ani, Chapter 17, plate 8, line 60)

GodAlmighty wrote:
Interestingly though, the tend to do as you are doing- humanizing the gods- was a tend started by...

a philosopher. :wink:
Euhemerus, to be precise.

Bingo! I am an advocate of Euhemerism and I state so in the community page I’ve created in G+
https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities ... 0934966067


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:08 am 
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Dimitrios wrote:
GodAlmighty wrote:
Since you invoked the Pyramid Texts in the other thread, I shall do so again here. These date back to the 24th century BCE, and their origins even earlier than that. They are the oldest religious texts currently extant from Egypt. They far predate the trend of philosophers allegorizing myths. They also needed no such interpreting, for they explicitly state their gods are the Sun(Atum, Re, Khepri),...

Let us see what the Pyramid Texts say about Atum the... Sun god!!

An inscription found in slightly variant forms in the pyramids of Pepi I, Merenra, and Pepi II, states that:

Atum is he who (once) came into being, who masturbated in On. He took his phallus in his grasp that he might create orgasm by means of it, and so were born the twins Shu and Tefenet. (Utt. 527 §1248)

As for Re or Ra, the most famous of the Sun gods, he performed circumcision on him self:

The blood which fell from the phallus of Re when he took to cutting himself.
(The Book of the Dead, Papyrus of Ani, Chapter 17, plate 8, line 60)


All of which I'm well aware... your point being?

Dimitrios wrote:
GodAlmighty wrote:
Interestingly though, the tend to do as you are doing- humanizing the gods- was a tend started by...

a philosopher. :wink:
Euhemerus, to be precise.

Bingo! I am an advocate of Euhemerism and I state so in the community page I’ve created in G+
https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities ... 0934966067


Glad you've clarified that for us, now we know where you're coming from moving forward.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:26 am 
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Dimitrios wrote:
we know exactly what people believed and it was not nature and its elements.
Dimitrios, your comment here is supremely arrogant and baseless, especially your bizarre claim to know “exactly” that ancient people did not believe in nature. The destruction of ancient wisdom by Christianity sought to justify a supernatural orthodoxy. It is therefore highly probable that natural thought was targeted for suppression, and was forced into hiding. Even in that context of the triumph of an alienated fantasy, of course people believed in nature. The sun was the natural source of light and life, then as now.
Dimitrios wrote:
The gods became natural powers when the idiotic idealist philosophers invented the allegorical interpretation.
Who are you to say “idiotic idealist philosophers invented the allegorical interpretation”? That assertion destroys your credibility. Allegorical associations between Gods and natural phenomena go back well before Greek philosophy. When the sun or moon is anthropomorphised in myth, that is allegory.
Dimitrios wrote:
If they believed their gods to be the elements of nature would have been terrified at the approach of a storm not when approaching the temples.
Please don’t make such garbled comments. Did you leave words out? It makes no sense. Did you mean “they” would have been terrified by storms? Were ancients terrified by temples? Your logic here is nonsensical.
Dimitrios wrote:
I suggest that you read Plutarch’s “On Superstition”
Thanks for the reference - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... ione*.html
Dimitrios wrote:
Plato, who could not bring himself to believe the allegorical nonsense, forbade the teaching of Homer.
Plato’s Republic uses the allegory of the divided line, and the allegory of the cave. Plato’s Phaedrus presents the chariot drawn by two horses as an allegory of the soul. You have a warped and false view of Plato if you think he was opposed to allegory.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.4.iii.html says “the soul, with shrilling cry, passed like smoke beneath the earth… we must beg Homer and the other poets not to be angry if we strike out these and similar passages, not because they are unpoetical, or unattractive to the popular ear, but because the greater the poetical charm of them, the less are they meet for the ears of boys and men who are meant to be free.”
Plato’s concern, in his promotion of logic, is to challenge literal belief in poetic traditions. Allegorical reading is possible within philosophy. Again, your comment is nonsensical, falsely impugning allegory, seemingly because you wrongly mistake allegory for literalism in myth.
Dimitrios wrote:
Philosophizing about the beliefs of the ancients is entirely worthless. Their words, their beliefs, are at our disposal. We know exactly what the people believed and what the philosophers and theologians later taught them to believe.

Such false polemic is not going to make you welcome here. In fact, there are big gaps in our knowledge of what the ancients believed, and you are propagating an untruth. The New Testament especially contains explicit statement that its public message is allegory and the real meaning is reserved for secret transmission to the initiates.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:32 am 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
All of which I'm well aware... your point being?


My point is that your star-gods masturbate, circumcise themselves, have sex, eat and their excrements oblige humans to eat (you must be aware of that too, I guess. :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:37 am 
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Robert Tulip wrote:
Dimitrios, your comment here is supremely arrogant and baseless, especially your bizarre claim to know “exactly” that ancient people did not believe in nature.

My arrogance is based on a 20-year study of the History of Religion.
We DO know exactly because we have their words etched on clay and granite.
Robert Tulip wrote:
The destruction of ancient wisdom by Christianity sought to justify a supernatural orthodoxy. It is therefore highly probable that natural thought was targeted for suppression, and was forced into hiding. Even in that context of the triumph of an alienated fantasy, of course people believed in nature. The sun was the natural source of light and life, then as now.

Whose wisdom destroyed Christianity? The only wisdom destroyed was that of the ancient Greeks, the only population on earth that exterminated its own clergy. The destruction had already been accomplished by Plato and his demiurge.
Oh, but you consider refined the polytheistic religions with their worship of star-gods. How about the fact that polytheistic religions practiced the killing of the first born which the monotheistic Judaism prohibited?
Robert Tulip wrote:
Who are you to say “idiotic idealist philosophers invented the allegorical interpretation”? That assertion destroys your credibility. Allegorical associations between Gods and natural phenomena go back well before Greek philosophy.

I have a little present for you from your beloved Christians:
http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/pdf/allegory_tate.pdf

What happened in ancient Greece, the same happened the world over: Philosophers did not like folklore!
Robert Tulip wrote:
Please don’t make such garbled comments. Did you leave words out? It makes no sense. Did you mean “they” would have been terrified by storms? Were ancients terrified by temples? Your logic here is nonsensical.

I apologize! You are right, I should have made clear that “they” would have been terrified by storms. And, yes, they were terrified when they were approaching the temples....

169E When the garland is on his head he turns pale, he offers sacrifice and feels afraid, he prays with quavering voice, with trembling hands he sprinkles incense, and, in a word, proves how foolish are the words of Pythagoras, who said that we reach our best when we draw near to the gods. For that is the time when the superstitious fare most miserably and wretchedly, for they approach the halls or temples of the gods as they would approach bears' dens or snakes' holes or the haunts of monsters of the deep.
Robert Tulip wrote:
Plato’s Republic uses the allegory of the divided line, and the allegory of the cave. Plato’s Phaedrus presents the chariot drawn by two horses as an allegory of the soul. You have a warped and false view of Plato if you think he was opposed to allegory.

He was opposed to allegorical interpretation of the myths, not the allegory itself.
Robert Tulip wrote:
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.4.iii.html says “the soul, with shrilling cry, passed like smoke beneath the earth… we must beg Homer and the other poets not to be angry if we strike out these and similar passages, not because they are unpoetical, or unattractive to the popular ear, but because the greater the poetical charm of them, the less are they meet for the ears of boys and men who are meant to be free.”

What is it that you understood of the passage you quoted?
The ancient Greeks knew that “once dead, for good dead”, Plato was instructed in the ideology of the Egyptian priesthood which was opposed to the ancient Greek spirit. Plato was a traitor and a fascist.
Robert Tulip wrote:
In fact, there are big gaps in our knowledge of what the ancients believed, and you are propagating an untruth.

Not big gaps, a total void is there in the knowledge of the academic community of what the ancients believed. The point is: is it a void of knowledge or a void of honesty so that the religion won’t be molested.
Robert Tulip wrote:
The New Testament especially contains explicit statement that its public message is allegory and the real meaning is reserved for secret transmission to the initiates.

There is no “New Testament”. There is only a novel written in Greek by some theologians who were forced to cede to the folklore of their time and present their god born by a common woman into a cave.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:33 am 
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Dimitrios wrote:
GodAlmighty wrote:
All of which I'm well aware... your point being?


My point is that your star-gods masturbate, circumcise themselves, have sex, eat and their excrements oblige humans to eat (you must be aware of that too, I guess. :-)


Again, yes, I am, and so again- what is your point?

This well known star here serves two scoops of raisins as part of a healthy breakfast, but since it is displaying anthropomorphic behavior here, I suppose by your thesis that rules out the sun as the identity of the character (in spite of the ad explicitly stating it is, just as the Pyramid Texts state of their gods) and instead this commercial must have some legitimate human history to be extracted here- such as a grape farmer who was exiled by other farmers and then later exalted to divine status or whatever:


Nor can this be about an actual star, since literal stars do not dance with owls:


Nor this about the planets in the sky, since those don't have eyes, noses, and mouths, and do not sing songs:


And of course, the sun and moon do not wear pajamas or play with each other on a children's play ground, so this video cannot be about them, must be about real events in human history instead:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:01 pm 
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The Bible and Canaanite Texts: Parallels in Religion and Culture

The astrotheology of the ancients is proved in numerous ancient texts, as we have seen demonstrated here repeatedly, including solar hymns such as those from the Amarna period. My commentary below is part of a larger, 35-page paper on this subject entitled The Old Testament and the Ugaritic Texts: Parallels in Religion and Culture Between the Israelites and their Canaanite Forebears.

Here are some excerpts and comments about Dr. John Gray's The Legacy of Canaan: The Ras Shamra Texts and Their Relevance to the Old Testament (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1965).

The Ras Shamra texts from Ugarit are written in a form of Canaanite and cover the period from the 19th or 18th to the 14th or 13th centuries BCE, preceding the composition of the Bible by centuries. At this point, the Hebrew language had not even emerged as a separate dialect.

Regarding Ras Shamra/Ugarit:

Quote:
The city reached its cultural zenith about 1400 B.C. about the time that the Hebrew tribes associated with the name of Jacob were migrating from North Mesopotamia to Palestine. Ugarit, as Ras Shamra was anciently called, was at that time a sphere of Egyptian influence under the XVIIIth [18th] Dynasty.

…In North Mesopotamia Assyria had not yet embarked on her career of expansion and was, in fact, not yet a nation The seat of her future empire was then occupied by the state of Mitanni whose population was a mixture of Semites and non-Semitic Hurrians under an Indo-Iranian ruling caste and a feudal aristocracy who had introduced the horse and light war-chariot to Western Asia just after 2000 B.C.

In such a cosmopolitan city as Ugarit, where the material remains demonstrate contact with Egypt, Mesopotamia, Hittite, Anatolia Crete, Cyprus and Greece, we are prepared to find various languages and scripts represented. There are Egyptian hieroglyphics [sic], Akkadian syllabic cuneiform on clay tablets, texts in the language of the non-Semitic Hurrians of the Anatolian foothills (the Horites of the Old Testament), and vocabularies of Sumerian-Akkadian and Sumerian-Akkadian-Hurrian words and syllabaries. The linear Cypriot script is also represented, and Hittite elements also occur.

…Ugaritic can, without undue difficulty, be brought into the Canaanite group of languages including Biblical Hebrew… We find certain features in Ugaritic, for instance, which are peculiar to Hebrew. Indeed, in morphology, vocabulary, and grammatical and literary structure the Ugaritic texts show striking affinities with Biblical Hebrew, particularly in the poetic passages of the Old Testament. We do not doubt that this is due to the fact that in literature as in other cultural respects the Hebrews assimilated, or consciously drew upon, the legacy of ancient Canaan.

Marriage Season

Quote:
…the most favored season for marriage among the Arab peasants in Syria and Palestine is the end of harvest.

The most active deity in the pantheon of Ugarit, at least on the evidence of the extant texts, is Baal, the Amorite storm-god Haddad. His temple with its adjunct on the most conspicuous site of the city corroborates this impression. This deity was manifest in the thunder, lightning, massed storm-clouds and violent rains of autumn, the “early rains” (יורה [yowreh]) of the Old Testament [e.g., Deut 11:14]…

This theme…was familiar to the Hebrews and finds frequent expression in the Old Testament in the motif of the conflict of God and the unruly waters as, for instance, in Psalms [74:12-19, 89:10-15, 93]…

…It is noteworthy that in an Egyptian papyrus from the early XIXth [19th] Dynasty there is preserved a myth in which the Sea appears as an arrogant tyrant demanding tribute…and is appeased by the giving of Aṯtrt as a bridge.

…We note the association here of tnn and the serpent with the unruly waters, “Sea beloved of El,” and “River of the great god.”…

The figure of Rahab, so familiar in the Old Testament in association with the unruly waters, is never found in the Ras Shamra texts.

…We note the association here of tnn and the serpent with the unruly waters, “Sea beloved of El,” and “River the great god.”

Notice that in these paragraphs we have a personified storm god who brings clouds and rains, battling the "unruly waters," reminiscent also of the Egyptian myth of combat with the "arrogant sea." There is also the sea as "beloved of El," the Canaanite high god who is largely solar, and there is also a river god. All of these personified elements are part of nature worship, which comprises astrotheology.

Fertility Deity

The god Baal is the subject of extensive mythology, again representing nature worship, of which astrotheology is an enormous part.

Quote:
The nature of Baal as a fertility deity is plain from his relation to his messengers Vine and Field, whom he addresses (VII, 53-56)…

…The imagery which makes Vine and Field the offspring of Baal the Storm-god by the darkness (i.e. of storm-clouds) is particularly appropriate.

…the stage is set for the drama of the life-and-death conflict between Baal and Mot which is an expression of the perpetual tension between fertility and drought throughout the whole of the husbandmen’s year in Syria.

Baal is the progenitor of the "vine and field," and his battle with Mot represents the "perpetual tension between fertility and drought," again these natural elements are personified in the gods.

Shapash the Sun Goddess

Baal too is largely solar in nature, but the sun is specifically named in the Ugarit texts as Shapash, a goddess. Her masculinized Semitic counterpart is Shamash, the Babylonian sun god reduced to one of Yahweh's creations in the Bible.

Quote:
After duly performing the mourning rites, “the rites of separation,” the goddess recovers the body of Baal:

When at length she was sated with weeping,
Drinking tears like wine,
Aloud she shouts Špš the Light of the Gods,
“Lift upon me, I pray thee, Baal the Mighty.”
Špš the Light of the Gods hearkens;
She lifts up Baal the Mighty
Upon the shoulder of Anat and she sets him there.
She takes him up to the crags of Sapon;
She weeps for him and buries him;
She puts him in the niche of the divinities of the earth.

Here we see similar themes as in the gospel story and Christian tradition, which places Jesus in the underworld, whence his anabasis. The “niche” in Ugaritic apparently is cognate with “cave” Hebrew, and this passage sounds like the typical solar motif of the sun in the cave or underworld of night, the same role of Osiris the night sun.

At the word Shapash, Gray notes:

Quote:
Cf. in Mesopotamian mythology, where the Sun-god is “the Illuminator of the Igigi and Anunnaki.” The role of sps in the recovery of the dead Baal is significant. A. Caquot…has adduced evidence from Mesopotamian texts, which are borne out particularly by this passage and the sequel in Gordon UH 49…that the sun, as traversing the sky and the underworld, was a fitting agent in the presentation of the dead. More particularly in the present passage Caquot sees the mythological expression of the phenomenon of evaporation by the agency of the sun, which is probably reflected in Isaiah [545:10]…

As a nature god, Baal is revived or resurrected:

Quote:
After a lacuna we encounter Baal redivivus. He avenges himself on his adversaries.

The conclusion of this “battle royal” is unfortunately lost in a lacuna, but in all probability it ended in a triumph for Baal since Špš, the sun-goddess, intervenes to rebuke Mot, who is evidently dismayed.

The Moon-god is possibly El himself, whose consort is Aṯerat.

Enter the moon god, which is "Sin" in the Babylonian and, possibly, El in the Ugaritic. We encounter Shapash the sun goddess again, who battles with the fertility god to defeat the god of pestilence and drought.

Concerning this motif of the "sons of El," Gray comments:

Quote:
A reminiscence of this mythology is found probably in Genesis [6:1-4], which describes the amours of the “sons of God” with the daughters of men. The same tradition appears in Job [38:7], which mentions the “sons of God” in parallel with “morning-stars.”

Nielsen would identify Aṯtar of the Ras Shamra texts with the deity of the same name in the South Arabian pantheon, who is the first-born of the moon-god Il and the sun-goddess Aṯerat, and is the Venus-star, the brightest luminary in these latitudes after the sun and the moon.

These are all nature-worship and astrotheological themes. There is much more in these pre-biblical texts, a significant amount of which can be found in the later Bible, which is clearly not "God's Word" divinely conveyed to "chosen people" but represents a rehash of pre-Israelite religion and mythology from the Levant, Egypt and elsewhere. This fact has been known for decades to scholars of Near Eastern texts, such as Assyriologists, whose factual insights have often been shut down by vested interest Christian theologians and New Testament scholars.

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A bronze statue of Baal from Ugarit, 14th-12th cents. BCE

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Why suffer from Egyptoparallelophobia, when you can read Christ in Egypt? Try it - you'll like it:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:29 am 
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Thor

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:41 pm
Posts: 41
Guess where the following quote comes from...

Quote:
Cosmology is easily disregarded in the modern world. ... Whether it was the philosopher contemplating the perfection of the heavenly orbits, the farmer searching the sky for signs of wh en to plant his crops, or the desert-dwelling sectarian looking for the end of the world, the cosmos held an endless fascination.

In light of this, it is hardly surprising that the study of cosmology has been relatively under-served in New Testament studies.

A fascination with (and fear of) the heavens goes deep into human history. In the Ancient Near East, the stars were universally regarded as divine beings, and "astral mythology" is pervasive throughout the literature of Egypt and Mesopotamia. The Babylonians in particular made meticulous observations of the heavenly bodies, and the interplay of their scientific calculations and their religious beliefs remains a fascinating area of inquiry. Of particular interest was the widespread assumption that terrestrial events were overseen, manipulated, or even completely controlled by celestial forces (see, e.g., the heavenly temple of Marduk as the prototype for the earthly Babylonian temple).

The biblical texts are very much a part of this world. In the Hebrew Bible, motifs drawn from astral mythology are almost certainly present in places like Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, even if they have been substantially reworked in the light of the Israelites' distinctive religious history.

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From Cosmology and New Testament Theology, published by T&T Clark International
Editors and Contributors (among others)
Jonathan T. Pennington (PhD, University of St. Andrews) is Assistant Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

Sean M. McDonough (PhD, University of St. Andrews) is Associate Professor of New Testament at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, South Hamilton, Massachusetts.

So I guess it is okay for these scholars to propose this but when the same thing and far more is stated by Acharya, she is accused of Parallelomania and lacking proper methodology!

The general public will not see the information in many of these books because the prices are prohibitive. The above mentioned book sells on amazon for (as of this writing) - (US)$105.95 . There is hope, one can get the same information here on this forum and in the books and articles of Acharya.


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