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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:08 am 
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This new book from a leading New Testament scholar and opponent of mythicism looks quite bad. Discussion is at
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http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=365


Apparently Casey talks at some length about the views of Acharya S, Earl Doherty and Freke and Gandy.

Amazon link


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Yep, I expect it to be as bad as Bart Ehrman's 'Did Jesus Exist?' since Maurice Casey already announced that he was going to defend Ehrman in this book. The Kindle version will come out tomorrow the Jan 16th - while the paperback version is still set for March. If anybody gets the Kindle edition please quote what Casey says about Acharya for us here in this thread.

Quote:
Book Description:

"Did Jesus exist? In recent years there has been a massive upsurge in public discussion of the view that Jesus did not exist. This view first found a voice in the 19th century, when Christian views were no longer taken for granted. Some way into the 20th century, this school of thought was largely thought to have been utterly refuted by the results of respectable critical scholarship (from both secular and religious scholars).

Now, many unprofessional scholars and bloggers ('mythicists'), are gaining an increasingly large following for a view many think to be unsupportable. It is starting to influence the academy, more than that it is starting to influence the views of the public about a crucial historical figure. Maurice Casey, one of the most important Historical Jesus scholars of his generation takes the 'mythicists' to task in this landmark publication. Casey argues neither from a religious respective, nor from that of a committed atheist. Rather he seeks to provide a clear view of what can be said about Jesus, and of what can't."

- Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths? by Maurice Casey

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Image

Maurice Casey, Professor Emeritus of the Department of Theology and Religious Studies at the University of Nottingham
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/theology/pe ... rice.casey

Here's a thread where Maurice Casey has been discussed here before:

Response to Hoffmann/Casey Defense of Ehrman's book

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:09 pm 
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The book is up at Google books and it shows 34 results for Acharya, plus, 25 for Murdock. Of course, more of the Dorthy crap again.

Quote:
"...Murdock, who writes also under the name of Acharya Sanning, claims to have received a B.A. degree in Classics, Greek Civilization, from Franklin and Marshal College, after which she completed a postgraduate studies at the American School of Classical Studies at Athens.50 She also claims to have been brought up as a liberal Christian in the Congregationalist Church, which she found very dull, and which she more or less left at the grand old age of 12. She has also claimed to have been a born-again Christian for a short time a few years later, and to regard evangelicals as impossible to debate with. Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that her work is not only very hostile to Christianity as such, but she is liable to attack a fundamentalist version of Christianity rather than critical scholarship, of which she seems to be largely unaware.

"The major faults in Murdock's work include her anti-Christian outlook, a lack of any proper sense of reality, failure to give adequate references, inability to interpret primary sources correctly, and dependence on inaccurate out-of-date secondary sources rather than primary evidence. The first three faults are well illustrated by her comments on the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. This was a major council of Christian bishops, but Murdock alleges that it was also attended by 'the leaders of many other cults, sects, and religions, including those of Apollo, Demeter/Ceres, Dionysus/Bacchus/Iasios, Janus, Jupiter/Zeus, Oannes/Dagon, Osiris and Isis ...' 51 For this amazing assertion, she gives no evidence whatever!"

- Maurice Casey, not sure what page yet.


Acharya's Blog discussing Maurice Casey's book: Forthcoming book admits Jesus mythicism is having unprecedented influence

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:56 pm 
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Quote:
The major faults in Murdock's work include her anti-Christian outlook, a lack of any proper sense of reality, failure to give adequate references, inability to interpret primary sources correctly, and dependence on inaccurate out-of-date secondary sources rather than primary evidence.

Casey is drawing his clever impressions from The Christ Conspiracy, without any idea that I've written a second edition, thus demonstrating he is NOT an expert on my work, while pretending to be an omniscient authority.

If he did know my work, rather than being a dishonest poseur full of bile, Casey would also know that I've backed up pretty much every major and many minor contentions since that book was written over 15 years ago. Hence, I do NOT rely on secondary sources. In fact, I'm quite sure that I read more primary sources in their original languages than does Casey, or he would be FAR better educated about the history of religion and mythology than he is. It is HE who is relying on outdated and specious sources in trying to uphold PATENT FAIRYTALES from antiquity.

Moreover, I "lack any proper sense of reality" - why, yes, because a good little woman knows her place and should not be speaking out, especially not against a male-dominant cult that keeps her PROPERLY oppressed.

My "anti-Christian" outlook - yes, it is just SOOO moral to have a pro-Christian outlook, when Christianity is sexist, bigoted and violent. What stellar morality!

http://truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

Maurice Casey is yet another rabid believing libeler of persons desperately trying to shore up his cultic beliefs by whatever means.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:48 am 
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Folks can help Acharya out like so, send e-mails to the Australian and US 'Bloomsbury T&T Clark':

Quote:
Hello Bloomsbury T&T Clark,

I understand that Bloomsbury T&T Clark are in the process of publishing a new book, "Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths?" by Maurice Casey.

I've seen the already released Kindle edition and I thought I would let you know that all the mentions of "Dorothy" related to author Acharya S must be removed. She should be referred to as either D.M. Murdock or Acharya S - never "Dorothy."

I notice the paperback edition isn't out until March so, there's plenty of time to make these simple changes.

Thank you for your attention to this important matter.

Quote:
"Dear friends: If ever you see someone pretending to know my "real name," please feel free to ignore that person. I have never revealed my first name publicly, and anyone pretending to know my real name is doing so fallaciously. In most cases, what people believe is my real name is being used in order to abuse, terrorize and bully me into submission. I don't appreciate the contemptuous familiarity AT ALL. To those who think they know my real name, no, you don't. You have heard an internet rumor but nothing from me. Those who are using what they think is my real name in internet writings are doing so unethically and with hostility against my person. That sort of poor character should not be given any credence or credibility."

"I have been advised by LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES not to disclose ANY personal information, because I was the victim of VIOLENT CRIME that included the felonious abduction of my small child. So, any and all attempts at publicizing what is believed to be my real name will be construed as a form of TERRORISM and BULLYING."

- Acharya S

Why does Acharya S use a pen name?
viewtopic.php?p=4753#p4753

Bloomsbury T&T Clark
http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/company/contact-us

US: academicreviewUS@bloomsbury.com

AU: csmanz@bloomsbury.com

Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths? by Maurice Casey
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Evidence-Ar ... ap_title_0

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:44 pm 
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Tim Widowfield's latest blog at vridar tells us what he really thinks about Maurice Casey and his new book:

Quote:
"On the other hand, I can’t understand how anyone could have read "Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths?" and truly thought it was worth the paper it was printed on. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but a scholar’s review should be an informed opinion."

"Maurice Casey needs an intervention. His friends, assistants, and editors are doing him a disservice by enabling his unprofessional behavior. To the silent scholars behind the starless-and-Bible-black wall who would rather not get involved I want to say, Guys, he’s making you look bad. Will someone on the inside have the courage to come forward and do the right thing? I still have hope."

- Tim Widowfield

http://vridar.org/2014/02/24/maurice-ca ... f-silence/

On a side note, Peter Kirby's new forum "earlywritings. com" is apparently a replacement for the old IIDB/FR forum with many of the same members and sadly is no different as Kirby and his mods refuse to allow mature discussion of Acharya's work, as usual. Apparently, if I understand correctly, they're now banning people &/or removing their posts for trying to set the record straight and defending Acharya's work and calling out those who intentionally spread malicious smears, lies and insults from the usual suspects like Roger Pearse, Stephan Huller and Neil Godfrey. Peter Kirby has now started refusing to allow posts from anybody defending Acharya or her work and prefer all the malicious smears, lies and insults instead. So, if anybody was thinking of joining over there don't waste your time or effort.

Peter Kirby

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I was unaware that Peter Kirby was just a kid. Kinda reminds me of Rook Hawkings/Tom Vern. :shock:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:18 pm 
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Richard Carrier's review of Maurice Casey’s book, Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths?

Quote:
"...I already exposed all the egregious errors of fact and logic in Bart Ehrman’s sad armchair failure at this. Which evidently provoked him to repeatedly lie about what happened, which I then also documented. I consider him disgraced as a scholar. If you have to tell lies to save face, rather than admit a mistake and do better, you are done in this business. Or certainly ought to be. Anyway, I’ve already summarized that sorry story, with links and summaries (Ehrman on Historicity Recap).

Now we have Maurice Casey’s book defending the historicity of Jesus, Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths? (T&T Clark, 2014…if you want to spend less or have a searchable text, it’s also available on kindle). It’s hard to compare the two books. Ehrman is at least a talented writer and mostly coherent thinker. In Jesus, Casey is neither.

The best way to describe this book is to imagine a rambling weirdo running into a grove of orange trees with a hammer and in a random frenzy smacking half the low hanging fruit, and then beating his chest and declaring proudly how the trees are now barren. Indeed. This book consists of a wandering, disorganized stream-of-consciousness of half-intelligible pontificating that very much reminded me of Eric Jonrosh. Except Jonrosh was eloquent. Indeed, the first two chapters almost read like a junior high schooler’s meandering rant on a sleepover, a total he-said-then-she-said gossip fest, where for long bouts all he does is clutch a fluffy pillow and trash talk people and obsess over Stephanie Fisher, while waiting for his friend’s mother to bring the smores. You might think that surely I am being unfair. No. Seriously. Read it."

- Critical Review of Maurice Casey’s Defense of the Historicity of Jesus

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:33 pm 
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Below are all the mentions of Acharya/Murdock from Carrier's review of Maurice Casey’s book, Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths? I am pleasantly surprised that Carrier defends Acharya again (to a certain degree better than expected) similar to the Bart Ehrman debacle and, this time Carrier is able to contain himself from saying anything overly insulting about her for a change.

Carrier states:

Quote:
"False Generalization Fallacies: Casey repeatedly makes sweeping false statements about “all” mythicists, and in some cases explicitly implies certain mythicists have said or done things that in fact they never have, thereby tarring all mythicists with the same brush. He has no trouble implying that, for example, Acharya S / Murdock’s unfortunate penchant for relying on wildly unreliable and outdated 19th century scholarship is shared by all mythicists. It is not. But no one reading Casey will ever be informed of that. Which is not just a failure of scholarly professionalism and responsibility, but of basic honesty."

Similarly, Casey essentially says all mythicists claim Jesus was based on a “Pagan Godman…born in a cave…on the twenty-fifth of December” (1-492), when in fact several of us (e.g., Doherty, Thompson and myself) make no such claims. A reader of this book is never told that. Casey also not only conflates all mythicists, but also all media: throughout, podcast interviews and blog comments are treated by the same standards as carefully researched or even peer reviewed books and articles. Likewise, his claim that we all date the Gospels very late, or that we all date them by the earliest recovered manuscripts. We do not. Readers will never learn that. And so on and so on. Basically, every time he says what “mythicists” say or do, he is in effect lying: we do not all say or do those things, and he makes no responsible effort to tell the difference, or educate his readers on it.

Quote:
"Another example is when he goes on a tirade against Murdock’s assessment that the Gospel narrative comprises just fifty hours of events. This is one of the strangest things in the book. It’s patently obvious she does not literally mean the actual events occurred and took place over fifty hours. Indeed, how could that be, when her whole point is that the events didn’t happen? (What I just did there: that’s hypothetical reasoning.) Yet somehow Casey can’t reason this out, reads her statement concretely rather than abstractly, and thus attacks her for not knowing that walking from Galilee to Jerusalem would take up way too many hours for her assessment to be correct (7-6076). Stop and do a double take there. That’s right. Casey actually argues that Murdock’s point is “complete nonsense” (sic) because a fictional character couldn’t possibly walk from Galilee to Jerusalem in less than fifty hours. That is such fantastically concrete thinking it makes the Uzbek peasant look like Einstein."

Quote:
"This is also why I suspect Casey doesn’t understand Murdock’s point about mythmakers often being able to construct historically credible myths (2-1438). Casey leans on the Criteria of Historical or Contextual Plausibility (e.g., 3-1771) without responding to my critique of them (PH, pp. 176-77), or addressing any of the concerns raised there, so his use of those criteria is fatally naive. But more important to the present point, examples of his failing at that also show a failure of ACHR (abstract-categorical-hypothetical reasoning)."

Quote:
"Casey sounds so much like Ken Ham I really find it astonishing. This is not the argument of a capable or objective scholar. And this is certainly not the way to defend historicity. But notable is the fact that I doubt Casey is ignorant of the above facts, as if he were some completely unschooled amateur (in fact, he essentially affirms them elsewhere, when it suits him: 3-2580). So what has happened here is that he was incapable of reasoning hypothetically from those facts to the conclusion Murdock (and everyone else with a normal IQ) correctly reaches, that someone in a later period in the midst of those audiences, neighbors, conflicts, and interactions could construct plausible Jewish fiction. Instead, Casey can only comprehend the concrete fact that it fits the Jewish context, therefore only someone who was actually there (someone who actually is looking at a white bear) could have said it. The idea of hypothetical reasoning is completely lost on him. He can’t even imagine ancient Christians engaging in it. And since you have to have the basic cognitive abilities of the people you imagine, in order to imagine them using them…well, you get the picture."

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:47 pm 
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Richard Carrier appears to endorse the status quo dating of the Gospels. So, I'll be sussing that out when his book comes out. It seems odd since there's no serious or obvious mention or discussion of them until the mid to late 2nd century when suddenly they're all the rave as if they've just come out around that time.

Quote:
How Historians Actually Date Things

"Casey goes against nearly the entire mainstream consensus in the field by insisting the Gospels are bizarrely early, Mark being written in the 40s and Matthew in the 50s. He does not mention that this puts him wildly against most experts in his field (he mentions the mainstream dating; but he does not note that this makes his position as fringe as the mythicists who want bizarrely late dates ... incidentally, I do not, I favor the later end of mainstream ranges for these documents and concede the earlier end is possible). But more importantly, unlike a competent historian, Casey mistakenly thinks that because he can think of some reasons why Mark and Matthew might have been written so early, that therefore he can be confident they were and base his entire case for historicity on that premise. That is not how professional historians behave. They recognize the strongest termini, and then don’t over-speculate where within that range the document was actually written. They might explore what’s possible."

"As it happens, in chapter ten of OHJ I discuss the abundant evidence in Mark (far beyond Mark 13, which Casey ironically treats exactly like a biblical literalist) that Mark was responding to the Jewish War and the end of Jewish temple cult, and that the Sermon on the Mount likewise presumes the temple cult had ceased, and therefore Matthew definitely wrote after that as well. You won’t find any response to this in Casey, because he doesn’t seem to have actually studied any other arguments for the dating of these documents (besides the one single argument from Mark 13, the only one he mentions)."

(Bold emphasis is mine)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:05 pm 
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Carrier to Mcgrath:

Quote:
"... can you explain why you don’t know that the Carrier-Doherty thesis is that Jesus assumed a body of flesh in the firmament then discarded it when he ascended in his new resurrection body? Ahem, that’s a two body theory. And it’s a mythicist thesis.

If you can’t even be bothered to understand our theory, why do you consider yourself qualified to critique it? You are just making yourself look like a fool. Please, to save the last scraps of your own reputation, stop. Either pay attention or stop pretending you are."

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/arc ... ent-155756

Carrier on Tim O’Neil:

Quote:
"Tim O’Neil is something of a disgruntled hack. He doesn’t really have any relevant competence in this field, and doesn’t make much of an effort to check his armchair claims before making them, and is well known to argue dishonestly. See David Fitzgerald on this point.

In fact, O’Neil is a documented liar (although the thread in which he blatantly lied has been, so far as I know, removed, I have a screenshot of it in my files; it’s referenced in the last paragraph of my comment here)."

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/arc ... ent-154947

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:01 pm 
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Quote:
Some way into the 20th century, this school of thought was largely thought to have been utterly refuted by the results of respectable critical scholarship (from both secular and religious scholars).


typical snide undercut, so tiresome reading that line,

largely thought to have been utterly refuted by the results of respectable critical scholarship

i'm dissapointed that sort of line still gets written. Trying to grab the high ground without an argument.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:41 pm 
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Quote:
largely thought to have been utterly refuted by the results of respectable critical scholarship


And yet Ehrman says his book is the first he knows of by an academic to actually tackle the question head on.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:41 pm 
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I've gone through variety of reviews of Maurice Casey’s book, 'Jesus: Evidence, and Argument or Mythicist Myths' and the book is just absolutely pathetic. It's as bad as Bart Ehrman's book, 'Did Jesus Exist?' and even worse. I bought Ehrman's book and felt like it was also a complete waste of my money so, "Fool me once ....."

So, Acharya sees no reason to waste any of her time on it and frankly, I do not blame her. Casey couldn't even accurately present her case so, all Acharya would do is waste time correcting Casey on his numerous errors and flat out dishonesty. If Casey can't make the effort to get her most basic arguments right, then, Acharya has no time for Maurice Casey at all.

I mean, it's so bad that even Neil Godfrey defends Acharya against Casey:

Quote:
"From time to time I have half a mind to continue with more of Maurice Casey’s responses to those he sees opponents of himself and his friend Stephanie Fisher in Jesus: Evidence, and Argument or Mythicist Myths, but each time I pick it up I am reminded of how every page drips with such depressing malice.

I should undertake at a future time to show how flat wrong he is about his accounts of several others like Earl Doherty and even D.M. Murdock. (Murdock has certainly expressed some colourful views about me over my differences with some of her works, but Casey has not even been able to get some of the basics of her arguments right.)"

http://vridar.org/2014/04/16/maurice-casey-once-more/

I am not convinced that Neil has "been able to get some of the basics of her arguments right" either but, you know it's bad when Godfrey and Carrier and many others essentially say the same thing. I was going to buy the book but, now, I'm no longer interested as Casey's book is just not something to take seriously. No point wasting any time or money on Casey's book and the publisher, Bloomsbury T&T Clark, should be ashamed for publishing such crap.

It looks like many others feel the same: "Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #3,251,808 in Books"

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