Dangerous delusions: The Messiah Complex and Jerusalem Syndrome
For centuries since the alleged advent of Jesus Christ, many people have believed that they are the “second coming” of the Jewish messiah, creating followings of devotees who likewise become convinced of these individuals’ claim to divinity. When this “messiah complex” is manifested during a journey to the biblical “Holy Land,” it may be identified as a psychosis called “Jerusalem syndrome.”
Unfortunately, mental institutions have seen their share of individuals claiming to be Jesus Christ, but many such persons do not end up in the psych ward. In the latter instances, these individuals are too often the source of considerable distress and danger, not only to themselves but also to their families, friends and followers. In this regard, two recent cases of men claiming to be Jesus Christ have ended in tragedy.
Defenders of Christ
The first of these tragic cases involves a cult called “Defenders of Christ” located in Mexico, where several sex slaves were abused before the group was raided and 14 people arrested:
Mexican officials storm a home in Nuevo Laredo, which is just across the border from Laredo, Texas, and find 10 victims, mostly women, living in squalor. Police say they were beaten, forced into prostitution and made to have sex with leader Ignacio Gonzalez de Arriba.
After filing a formal complaint against the polygamous sex cult last year, agents with Mexico’s National Immigration Institute helped spearhead the raid along with federal police and prosecutors.
Inside the home, which is located just across the border from Laredo, Texas, police say they found 10 Mexicans living in squalor. The victims, mostly women, police said, were beaten, forced into prostitution and made to have sex with the group’s charismatic leader, Spaniard Ignacio Gonzalez de Arriba, as a form of tithing.
On the Defenders of Christ website, Gonzalez de Arriba, is billed as the reincarnation of Jesus.
“He was able to convince them that they had to behave in certain ways to satisfy his economic and sexual needs,” Myrna Garcia, an activist with the Support Network for Cult Victims, told CNN.
The Spanish cult leader Gonzalez de Arriba thus claimed to be Jesus Christ, and his followers willingly provided him with money and sex slaves.
The cult’s website, shown in the image above, makes extensive comparisons between its leader and purported images of Jesus, as part of the “evidence” allegedly proving him to be Christ.
Tacoma Jesus
In another recent case, a man in Seattle, Washington, believed that he was Jesus Christ, to the detriment of both himself and his victim, as he ended up ramming his car into a city worker:
A 54-year-old Tacoma man has been arrested for allegedly driving his car into a Pacific Gas & Electric worker in Fresno, trapping the man between two vehicles. According to a witness, Jett Simmons claimed to be the reincarnation of Jesus Christ before making racially charged threats and ramming his car into the PG&E worker.
The witness–a hitchhiker “from Dogtown” by way of West Virginia named Kai (that it–just Kai)–says that after Simmons rammed the man, he got out of the car and tried to smother a bystander with a bear hug. That’s when Kai sprung into action and hit the 6’4″, 290-pound Simmons on the head with a hatchet.
As can be seen, the belief that one is Jesus Christ not only is delusional but also can be dangerous, both to oneself and to the general public.
Many people have claimed to be Jesus
The list of people over the centuries who have claimed to be Jesus Christ or have been perceived as such by their followers is long indeed, and includes the following:
John Nichols Thom (1799–1838)
Arnold Potter (1804–1872)
Bahá’u’lláh (1817–1892)
William W. Davies (1833–1906)
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, India (1835–1908)
Adolf Hitler (1889-1945)
George Ernest Roux (1903–1981)
Ernest Norman (1904–1971)
William M Branham (1908-1965)
Krishna Venta (1911—1958)
Ahn Sahng-Hong (1918–1985)
Sun Myung Moon (1920–2012)
Jim Jones (1931–1978)
Marshall Applewhite (1931–1997)
Charles Manson (b. 1934)
Yahweh ben Yahweh (1935–2007)
Laszlo Toth (b. 1940)
Wayne Bent (b. 1941)
Ariffin Mohammed (b. 1943)
Mitsuo Matayoshi (b. 1944)
Hogen Fukunaga (b. 1945)
José Luis de Jesús Miranda (b. 1946)
Lia Eden (b. 1947)
Inri Cristo (b. 1948)
Thomas Harrison Provenzano (1949–2000)
Shoko Asahara (b. 1955)
David Koresh (1959–1993)
Marina Tsvigun/Maria Devi Christos (b. 1960)
Sergey Torop (b. 1961)
Alan John Miller (b. 1962)
David Shayler (b. 1965)
Maurice Clemmons (1972-2009)
Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez (b. 1990)
Famed Ethiopian emperor Haile Selassie I (1892–1975) did not make this claim for himself, but his followers were convinced he was Jesus.
There are, of course, many, many more such individuals known not to the public at large but among small followings all over the world.
Multiple divinities, prophets and famous people
In some instances, the claimants to divinity also assert that they are the “reincarnation” of other famous and esteemed figures:
Ernest Norman (1904–1971), an American electrical engineer who co-founded the Unarius Academy of Science in 1954, was allegedly Jesus in a past life and his earthly incarnation was as an archangel named Raphiel. He claimed to be the reincarnation of other notable figures including Confucius, Mona Lisa, Benjamin Franklin, Socrates, Queen Elizabeth I, and Tsar Peter I the Great.
Ariffin Mohammed (b. 1943) is “believed by his followers to be the incarnation of Jesus, as well as Shiva, and Buddha, and Muhammad.”
Like father, like son?
At times, this delusion affects multiple generations: For example, William W. Davies (1833–1906) “taught his followers that he was the archangel Michael, who had previously lived as the biblical Adam, Abraham, and David.” His first child was subsequently declared to be “Jesus Christ,” while his second son assumed the role of “God the Father.”
Female Christs
Individuals suffering from messiah complex have run the gamut of nationalities, ethnicities and races. They tend to be male, as would seem appropriate since Christ was alleged to have been a man. However, on occasion women such as Marina Tsvigun or “Maria Devi Christos” (b. 1960) also have made this claim to be the “son of God,” so to speak. Another female would-be Christ is Lia Eden (b. 1947):
…born as Lia Aminuddin in Makassar, Indonesia. In 1998, she claimed that she met the angel Gabriel several times, convincing her that she was Imam Mahdi or Messiah who brought the prophecy of the world security and justice before the doomsday. In another occasion, she also claimed that she was the reincarnation of Mother Mary and her son, Ahmad Mukti as the reincarnation of Jesus.
Eden was convicted of “blasphemy” in the Muslim country of Indonesia and spent years in prison.
One current “Jesus,” Alan John Miller (b. 1962), has a female partner named Rozena, who “identifies herself as the returned and chic Mary Magdalene.”
Deadly Delusions of Grandeur
A number of these messianic cults have ended very badly, such as that of Adolf Hitler, whose millions of German followers believed he was a figure like Jesus Christ, if not Christ himself. Also notorious was Charles Manson, who convinced his followers he was the “son of man,” Jesus Christ, and that they should murder brutally several innocent people. 
Other examples of violent outcomes include Jim Jones – who “claimed to be the reincarnation of Jesus, Akhenaten, Buddha, Vladimir Lenin and Father Divine” – and Marshall Applewhite of “Heaven’s Gate” notoriety, both of whose followers allegedly committed mass suicide. At Waco, Texas, David Koresh of Branch Davidian infamy holed up in a “compound,” which was burned to the ground, killing dozens of men, women and children trapped inside.
In 1984, Aum Shinrikyo cult leader Shoko Asahara (b. 1955) convinced his followers to release sarin gas in a Tokyo subway and was subsequently sentenced to death. Less well known is Maurice Clemmons (1972-2009), who murdered four police officers in Washington State in 2009, while claiming himself to be Jesus.
Christ claimant Thomas Harrison Provenzano (1949–2000) was an American convicted of murder who was “possibly mentally ill,” an observation that would appear to be obvious. Messiah wannabe Hulon Mitchell, Jr. (1935–2007), aka “Yahweh ben Yahweh,” was convicted in 1992 of conspiracy to commit murder, receiving an 18-year sentence. And then there was Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez (b. 1990), who used an assault rifle to attack the White House, claiming he was Jesus Christ sent to kill American president Barack Obama, the purported anti-Christ.
In 1958, Krishna Venta (pictured above) was “suicide bombed by two disgruntled former followers who accused Venta of mishandling cult funds and having been intimate with their wives.” As we can see, money and sex appear to be the motivators for a significant number of these would-be messiahs, as is power, of course, which would be total, as, according to Christianity, Jesus is the omnipotent or all-powerful God.
“As we can see, money and sex appear to be the motivators for a significant number of these would-be messiahs.”
As another prominent example of how messianic delusion is dangerous to the public, the Hungarian-Austrian would-be savior Laszlo Toth, still alive, is notorious for having damaged Michelangelo’s famous sculpture the Pietà with a hammer. And, as an example of danger to themselves, messiah claimant from the Latter Day Saints or Mormonism Arnold Potter (1804–1872) believed he could “ascend to heaven,” killing himself as he jumped off a cliff.
Other ‘Divine Prophet’ Pretenders
Other cult leaders believing themselves divine in one way or another have been found guilty of the sexual assault, rape and/or trafficking of minors, such as Wayne Bent (b. 1941) and FLDS leader Warren Jeffs (b. 1955) – who convinced his followers that he was the only true, living prophet of God – along with Bernie Lazar Hoffman (b. 1934), aka “Tony Alamo,” who believed that he and his wife were the “two witnesses” in the biblical book of Revelation.
Then there are those countless others suffering mental illness who have claimed “God” told them to harm others, including their own children, with the example of the biblical god Yahweh requiring Abraham to sacrifice his beloved son, much as the New Testament God the Father was said to have done with his beloved son.
The list of those experiencing religious delusions is lengthy and filled with tragedy and peril. Not a few of these claimants to messiahship are still alive, undoubtedly to be joined by many more in the future, so long as the world-savior story continues to enthrall the human mind. Thus, there are numerous “Jesus Christs” running about the world, none of whom probably agrees that any of the others are sane and truthful.
“There are numerous ‘Jesus Christs’ running about the world, none of whom probably agrees that any of the others are sane and truthful.”
Jerusalem Syndrome
When this messianic complex has occurred in the biblical city of Jerusalem, it is part of a wider “Jerusalem syndrome,” a form of “psychosis” that causes visitors to the “Holy Land” to believe they are somehow involved in biblical events, including as the “second coming” of Jesus. A paper on “Jerusalem syndrome” in the British Journal of Psychiatry (2000:176:86-90) seeks to describe the condition as “a unique acute psychotic state.” The Society of Biblical Literature defines the syndrome as a “clinical psychiatric diagnosis first identified in the 1930s by Dr. Heinz Herman, one of the founders of modern psychiatric research in Israel.”
“In consideration of all these facts, it would seem best not to encourage and validate such individuals in their delusions and psychoses.”
During holidays and other times of the year, along with milestones like the turn of the millennium in 2000, Israel’s hospitals and mental institutions experience a surge of such persons suffering a psychotic breakdown. In consideration of all these facts, it would seem best not to encourage and validate such individuals in their delusions and psychoses.
The Jerusalem syndrome is a group of mental phenomena involving the presence of either religiously themed obsessive ideas, delusions or other psychosis-like experiences that are triggered by a visit to the city of Jerusalem. It is not endemic to one single religion or denomination but has affected Jews, Christians and Muslims of many different backgrounds.
The best known, although not the most prevalent, manifestation of the Jerusalem syndrome is the phenomenon whereby a person who seems previously balanced and devoid of any signs of psychopathology becomes psychotic after arriving in Jerusalem. The psychosis is characterised by an intense religious theme and typically resolves to full recovery after a few weeks or after being removed from the area. The religious focus of the Jerusalem syndrome distinguishes it from other phenomena, such as the Stendhal syndrome, which is reported in Florence, Italy, or the Paris syndrome, which has been reported predominantly in Japanese individuals.
In a 2000 article in the British Journal of Psychiatry, Bar-El et al. claim to have identified and described a specific syndrome which emerges in tourists with no previous psychiatric history. However, this claim has been disputed by M. Kalian and E. Witztum. Kalian and Witzum stressed that nearly all of the tourists who demonstrated the described behaviours were mentally ill prior to their arrival in Jerusalem. They further noted that, of the small proportion of tourists alleged to have exhibited spontaneous psychosis after arrival in Jerusalem, Bar-El et al. had presented no evidence that the tourists had been well prior to their arrival in the city. Jerusalem Syndrome is not listed or referenced in the DSM IV.
Jerusalem syndrome has previously been regarded as a form of hysteria, referred to as “Jerusalem squabble poison,” or fièvre Jerusalemmiene. It was first clinically described in the 1930s by Jerusalem psychiatrist Heinz Herman, one of the founders of modern psychiatric research in Israel….
This syndrome has proved dangerous on more than one occasion, including a notorious case in which an Austrian visitor to Jerusalem, Denis Michael Rohan, “overwhelmed with a feeling of divine mission, set fire to the al-Aqsa Mosque.” His crime was followed by “citywide rioting,” events immortalized in a film entitled “The Jerusalem Syndrome.”
“This syndrome has proved dangerous on more than one occasion.”
While this syndrome is not listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (“DSM IV“), it is clearly considered by health professionals to be a mental disorder, specifically a psychosis:
The classic Jerusalem syndrome, where a visit to Jerusalem seems to trigger an intense religious psychosis that resolves quickly or on departure, has been a subject of debate in the medical literature. Most of the discussion has centered on whether this definition of the Jerusalem syndrome is a distinct form of psychosis, or simply a re-expression of a previously existing psychotic illness that was not picked up by the medical authorities in Israel….
During a period of 13 years (1980–1993) for which admissions to the Kfar Shaul Mental Health Centre in Jerusalem were analysed, it was reported that 1,200 tourists with severe, Jerusalem-themed mental problems were referred to this clinic. Of these, 470 were admitted to hospital. On average, 100 such tourists have been seen annually, 40 of them requiring admission to hospital.
“On average, 100 such tourists have been seen annually, 40 of them requiring admission to hospital.”
Jerusalem syndrome “overwhelmingly” affects Christians, often causing them to believe they are the messiah. Doctors in Jerusalem at times will refer to such saviors as “chosen ones.” Hence, the same diagnosis of mental illness can be asserted of the messiah complex, which is comparable to a form of delusion, megalomania and narcissism.
Witnessing such individuals gives the impression of a severe form of narcissism, in fact, as they fixate and obsess on “I,” “me,” “my” and “mine,” desperately attempting to draw attention to themselves. This mental illness has caused much suffering, and it is always sad when children are involved in these cases.
Jesus as a mythical figure
This misapprehension is all the more tragic in consideration of the fact that there exists no credible, scientific evidence that the “Jesus Christ” of the biblical gospel story was ever a historical personage in the first place. In reality, the evidence points to him being a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple “people,” of course, is no one. In this regard, it seems a crime against humanity to perpetuate this fallacy, to the detriment of millions of people, including those victimized by claimants to divinity, as well as sufferers of this psychosis themselves.
It would seem logical to suggest that, without the conditioning provided by certain religions, these mental disorders would not be so prominent in the world today. In this regard, scholarship factually and scientifically demonstrating religion to be largely allegorical, mythical and fictional could provide a solution to this problem and relief for future suffering.
A video presenting the alternative to the messiah complex:
Further Reading
Raid on Defenders of Christ sexual slavery cult in Mexico nabs 14 suspects
Homeless Hitchhiker Saves Woman From Jesus
List of people claimed to be Jesus
Jerusalem syndrome
The Jerusalem Syndrome: Why Some Religious Tourists Believe They Are the Messiah
The Jerusalem Syndrome in Biblical Archaeology
Jesus Christ as mythical amalgam
67 thoughts on “Dangerous delusions: The Messiah Complex and Jerusalem Syndrome”
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I had no idea there were so many instances of people who claim to be Jesus. Thanks for writing this. Very interesting reading. Blessings to you.
Greatest Story Ever D’ohed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Story_Ever_D'ohed ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Story_Ever_D’ohed[/url])
“Homer with Jerusalem syndrome, whose sufferers possess religiously-themed obsessive ideas. Homer escapes from the hotel and ends up at the Dome of the Rock. Marge, the Simpson children, and Dr. Hibbert all chase after him, only to hear him preach that the similarities of different religions outweigh their differences, and that all should search for a common ground for a joint new religion, the so-called “Chrismujews” (and in Homer’s mind, this includes “peace and chicken” – chicken because it is accepted as food in each of the above-mentioned religions).”
Here’s the full episode:
http://wtso.net/movie/476-2116_Greatest_Story_Ever_D039Ohed.html ([url]http://wtso.net/movie/476-2116_Greatest_Story_Ever_D039Ohed.html[/url])
kek, read this article by a former Pastor of 20 years:
[quote]”During the 19 years I preached the Gospel, the resurrection of Jesus was the keystone of my ministry.[1] Every Easter I affirmed the Apostle Paul’s admonition: “If Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain.”[2] I wrote a popular Easter musical called “His Fleece Was White As Snow” with the joyous finale proclaiming: “Sing Hosanna! Christ is Risen! The Son has risen to shine on me!”[3]
But now I no longer believe it. Many bible scholars[4] and ministers–including one third of the clergy in the Church of England[5]–reject the idea that Jesus bodily came back to life. So do 30% of born-again American Christians![6] ……”
– Did Jesus Really Rise From The Dead? ([url]http://ffrf.org/legacy/about/bybarker/rise.php[/url])[/quote]
God/Jesus is supposed to be the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe yet is incapable of leaving behind credible evidence of himself which would:
1. Save Christians from persecution
2. Convince billions more skeptics thus saving more souls. Which is what all of this is suppose to be about, right?
So, either God/Jesus doesn’t give a sh*t about you or he doesn’t exist. All theistic arguments have failed. There’s still not a shred of valid evidence for Christian supernatural religious claims. If there were any credible evidence, faith, would not be the main requirement. It seems more likely that religion is a human creation with an obsession of riding the world of non-believers.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
– Historian, Stephen Henry Roberts 1901-71
“There’s still not a shred of valid evidence for Christian supernatural religious claims.”
That might be true except for the finding of a talking Ronald Reagan doll. Ronald Reagan 40th president of the United States of America meets all of the requirements set forth in Revelation Chapters 12 and 13 to be named as the Antichrist. The talking doll is the talking Image of the Beast spoken about in Revelation chapter 13.
I am the Messiah. On July 4th of 1990 I broke into Ronald Reagan’s retirement home to get publicity for my books about him being the Antichrist. The publicity stunt worked and now I am able to get on radio and television shows to explain my theories.
Perhaps the best way to look at Revelation is as a script with an open casting call for a savior. It is also good to know that the Muslim version of the Second Coming of Christ and the occult versions are more in line with what Revelation says than is the pre-tribulation Rapture theory of the “Left Behind” fictional book series.
God intended the world to be run by a righteous king who would see to the betterment of His people. That king is known in Revelation as “Him who Overcomes.” I explain all of this in my books and present my plan for world salvation at my web site. lightoftheworld.com
So you and a one time murderer are both innocent. You just killed one fewer persons than he did.
Dear Heather,
You will be happy to learn, Albert Pike, the famous Freemason of the 1800s, stated that WW III will be an event that will focus on terminating Christianity and atheism. Now why do you think he included atheism in that statement? (He explained WW1 and WWII) WW III will be the advent of the world government and the coming of the world religion. When that day comes, you will be forced what to believe.
fulfilment of the prophecy
I see it as fulfilment of the following prophecy written in the Bible: Mat 24:5 “…For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many..”
Well, anyone can claim anything he or she likes. I can also claim to be God.
The difference between my claim and claims of all the other “mad” people is that Jesus backed his claim up by miracles throughout his ministry (attested by independent historical sources) including the greatest miracle of all – the Resurrection.
The central claim of Christianity is that Jesus was literally raised from the dead. Some suggested though that Jesus was not completely dead when he was taken down from the cross. He revived in the tomb and escaped to convince his disciples He had risen from the dead. But it is not plausible that, having been scourged and crucified, Jesus pushed the heavy stone away from the tomb with pierced hands and walked blocks on pierced and wounded feet and then appeared to his disciples in his pathetic and mutilated state. The disciples would not have been convinced that he had risen from the dead, since the sight of his body and his slow careful movements would have indicated that he was horribly hurting man. Upon seeing a swooned Jesus who was limping, bleeding, pale and stooped over in pain, the apostle Peter would have responded “Let’s get you a doctor. You need help” …. Yet the belief in Jesus’ resurrection was universal in the early Christian church. Even sceptical New Testament scholars recognize that the Christian faith owes its origin to the belief of the earliest disciples that God raised Jesus of Nazareth from the dead……the origin of Christian faith and the willingness of disciples to die for “delusive” belief will always remain a mystery, a paradox and a black box for non-believers
Oh my …
Your last paragraph is as silly as the “Did Jesus really drink wine or was it just grape juice?” conundrum that Southern Baptists have interminable, pointless angst over.
Persecution of Christians was way over-blown in the early days of Christianity same as it is today. Christians think that if anybody disagrees with them that that, in and of itself, is somehow “persecution.” Meanwhile, Christians forget or omit what they’ve done to Pagans and even other Christians so, spare me the utter hypocrisy:
Pagan Destruction Chronology ([url]http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2128[/url])
How many has God killed? ([url]http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2381[/url])
Christians have killed around 250 million ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19748[/url])
Also, there exists no credible evidence for Jesus or the 12 disciples.
kek: “According to Bible salvation is by faith (not by evidence). These are the rules of the game to play (made by God)”
There exists no credible evidence – that’s why it’s a faith issue. If there existed credible evidence to substatiate the claims, faith and euphoria would not need to be a requirement. Faith is simply all you’ve got, which we all know is defined as belief with no evidence (HELLO – take the hint).
kek: “Secondly there is plenty around to convince skeptics”
LOL, not in reality but, sophomoric delusionists might be convinced by such nonsense.
If dying for ones religion makes it true then Islam is the true religion, which it isn’t. As stated previously, there exists no valid evidence for Jesus or any of his disciples so, there’s no valid evidence any of them died for Jesus.
There are no mentions about Jesus or any of his miracles by any contemporaries during Jesus’s own lifetime, including the supposed “resurrection” even though the bible claims Jesus was “famed far and wide” in over 20 scriptures yet, nobody at the time ever mentioned it. It’s as if it never happened – because it didn’t.
In over 20 passages throughout the canonical gospels claiming Jesus was famed far and wide not a single one has ever been substantiated with credible evidence.
[quote][b]Jesus famed far and wide:[/b]
“These “great crowds” and “multitudes,” along with Jesus’s fame, are repeatedly referred to in the gospels, including at the
Matthew 4:23-25, 5:1, 8:1, 8:18, 9:8, 9:31, 9:33, 9:36, 11:7, 12:15, 13:2, 14:1, 14:13, 14:22, 15:30, 19:2, 21:9, 26:55;
Mark 1:28, 10:1;
Luke: 4:14, 4:37, 5:15, 14:25, etc.”
– Who Was Jesus?, page 85[/quote]
“Persecution of Christians was way over-blown in the early days of Christianity same as it is today.”
However, they were persecuted, or shall we say indicted, for crimes against the state. And there was another reason why they were reviled by the pagans which is discussed in the recent book [i]Original Sin, Ritual Child Rape & The Church[/i], by Dr. DCA Hillman, whose livelihood has been threatened because he dared to publish the truth about the early Christian Church and its “saintly” priesthood.
Just as delusional are those who hear a god’s voice inside of their head or in the rumblings of their gut.
See George W. Bush and Adolph Hitler.
Kia Is the man!
Wow, good for you Kia! And thank you Acharya for posting that video, laugh out loud funny, and healing at the same time! Lol, OMG!
Who are you?
Are you a Jew?
Is who a Jew?
Albert Einstein, Edward Teller, Robert Oppenheimer, Richard Feynman were. Is that good enough?
3 christs of the mental institution at ypsilanti
A christ for all seasons- every true believer has their own personal jesus,
how different from the classic depth-psych analysis , “the 3 christs of Ypsilanti”? the delusion is so well-entrenched that fanatical belief on a larger religious cult scale parrallels the phenom.
http://www.nybooks.com/books/imprints/classics/the-three-christs-of-ypsilanti/ ([url]http://www.nybooks.com/books/imprints/classics/the-three-christs-of-ypsilanti/[/url])
What you have posted as “evidence” can be picked apart quite readily. The mere existence of various artifacts such as Herod the Great’s tomb only prove that HE (Herod) lived. They don’t prove the gospel story AT ALL.
We already know that Herod was a real person, as was Pilate, and that many of the places in the gospel story have been discovered to be real – save a Nazareth where people lived at the time. The gospel story is like “Gulliver’s Travels” or other historical fiction: It is placed in a location on earth, using a framework of real people from history, to weave a fictional tale around a mythical protagonist. Was Gulliver a “real person,” just because he was placed in England, where real people live? Obviously not. The gospel story is little different.
The fact will remain that the most credible, scientific analysis of the gospel story reveals the “Jesus Christ” of the New Testament to be a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple “people” is no one.
For those who have studied ancient religion and mythology in depth, who are real experts and not ignorant of these subjects, what I have stated above is quite obvious.
Jesus real?
Being an atheist takes a lot of faith, and I don’t know if Jesus was a historical figure or not. I’ve said that I have it on good authority that I don’t know, because authority figures from both sides have informed me.
But what of miracles? 50,000 people witnessed Fatima. Many were cured at Lourdes, and there’s been documented examples of Stigmata. I don’t claim this is proof Jesus is real. but they are Christian miracles.
Thanks. But who said anything about atheism? What I stated is that the evidence points to the “Jesus Christ” of the New Testament as a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple “people” is no one. Nothing you have stated dispenses with those contentions.
The Fatima “miracle” has been addressed by skeptics many times. Moreover, even if some odd event happened, it was filtered through the minds of Christians. In antiquity, such oddities would be ascribed to other deities, such as Isis or Zeus. When seemingly bizarre things happen in India, they are attributed to Krishna, Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha, Hanuman, Lakshmi and hundreds of other gods. All we are talking about is a conditioned mind to see what it wishes to see.
If you are going to use miracles to “prove” the tenets of one faith, you will have to accept the countless miracles in other religions as “proof” that they too are correct.
In the meantime, not believing in a superhuman Jewish man requires NO faith whatsoever. Nor does one need to be an atheist to see the truth in what I have said here: Jesus is a mythical as the Greek son of God Hercules, who likewise was said by his many followers in antiquity to have “walked the earth” at some point, but who today we know to be a mythical figure. The same will be the case in the future with the Judeo-Christian son of God.
persecutions, convincing skeptics
It’s unfortunate about a pastor of 20 years. The Bible does speak about some individuals who come across as Christians but yet are not real
About persecutions:
Early Christians began as a sect among early Jews and were severely persecuted (this is actually historically documented quite well). As you know Jesus had 12 apostles. One of them Judas Iscariot has killed himself. Of the eleven remaining apostles, only one of them (John the Apostle), died of natural causes in exile. The other ten were reportedly martyred by various means including beheading, by sword and spear and, in the case of Peter, crucifixion upside down following the execution of his wife. It makes sense to think that if Christian God was real then he would stop his followers being persecuted. The Romans were involved in some of these persecutions. Constantine, who was a great warrior and man of considerable talents, rose to the top of the political ladder. His mother was a Christian. Legend says it that on the eve of one of the great battles, in 330 CE, Constantine saw a vision. Some say it was a cross. Others say it was a vision in which his mother stood on the right hand of Jesus and when Constantine saw Jesus he promised “If you will give me victory in this battle, then I will officially become a Christian.” Constantine won the battle and fulfilled his promise. When the emperor became a Christian it meant that the empire became Christian…. Well persecutions stopped so let’s believe in Jesus now
About convincing skeptics:
According to Bible salvation is by faith (not by evidence). These are the rules of the game to play (made by God) and I personally see the rationality of it since “Faith” involves free-willing attitude and longing of your most inner being (your heart)
Secondly there is plenty around to convince skeptics. There is some significant evidence or philosophical arguments for existence of God. For example the beginning of the universe argument, the teleological argument from the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life, the moral argument for a personally embodied Good, the ontological argument for a maximally great being, Clinical Death Experiences where complex states of consciousness, including vivid mentation, sensory perception, and memory occur under conditions in which current neurophysiological models of the production of mind by brain deem such states impossible. Each of these arguments requires in its own way the existence of a personal deity. Each of these arguments is incompatible with the existence of an impersonal God, such as is featured in pantheistic religions like Taoism, Advaita Vedanta Hinduism, and Buddhism. They narrow down the options of the world’s major religions to the great monotheistic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Deism.
Religions are “cultural phenomena.” They are human expressions of man’s quest after the transcendent. But in the history of Israel and in Jesus of Nazareth in particular we have good historical and philosophical grounds for thinking the God whose existence is demonstrated by the arguments of natural theology has revealed Himself to mankind in a decisive way.
So the arguments of natural theology give us a personal God, and Christian evidences give us a God who is involved in the universe and in human history.
Religion has been defined as man’s best effort to reach God; Christianity is God’s best effort to reach man.
The argument is this:
If Jesus was a mad man or a liar, and all of it was a fake, and on a third day his tomb was never found empty, and his disciples never saw him being resurrected and being alive again after his crucifixion and death then it is extremely unlikely that early Christians (who saw Jesus being dead) would be willing to hold on to their beliefs and die in horrific deaths….there must have been something that made early Christians convinced…..It is extremely difficult to reconcile the early rise of Christianity with the death of their Christian leader (who wasn’t a warrior or anything of that sort, he was just son of a carpenter)…..the origin of Christian faith and the willingness of disciples to die for “delusive” belief will always remain a mystery, a paradox and a black box for non-believers
Sheesh …
Based on the information in the article and the nature of some of the comments, I don’t know whether to laugh, cry or just ride my bicycle in circles talking to myself. Wait, wait, I think I’m getting a message from God … wait …. wait … no, no, it’s just a spam text.
The most hated troll weighs in..
Without challenging facts, anyone can claim anything.
Without satisfying subjective facts no one can claim anything.
Without observing objective facts all is nonsense. Any who have alias’s or have multiple monickers are a composite and are no one?
I love how this article shortly follows an article introducing info that Christianity is an amalgamation of Buddhist and other ideologies, yet a Christ person is never allowed . Are we not all of us an amalgamation of different schools of thought? I am! But apparently I’m nobody since I am a product of many ideologies, however Jesus I’m not. Some people just get tired of mentally disturbed individuals who forget their place among society. Interesting article though , minus some comments. All that we are should be examined good or bad and weighed against a higher standard,,, to bad some have ego problems and jump off the deep end of deeper thinking- peace
Salvation is by faith alone
Firstly, I think you missing the fundamental message of the whole Bible which is “Salvation is by faith alone”. There are so many verses about it.
According to Bible God is a person who would like you to come to him free-willingly with the most genuine yearning of your heart. “Faith” or “Hope” encompasses free-willing attitude and longing of the most inner being of a human being.
“Salvation by Faith” makes perfect sense to me since God is Spirit and “Faith” is a spiritual thing. You approach Spiritual by spiritual.
Spiritual World is not Science where you measure or look into the microscope. Spiritual World is Spiritual and so it is about inclinations of your heart (it’s not about brain seeking for mathematical proofs and formulas and all kinds of material evidences)
In contrast “evidence” is material. Idol is material. Icon is material.
Painting on the wall is material.
The basic idea is this: In time of trouble and depression do you want to run home as quickly as you can to see the painting on the wall (or some idol made of gold) to make you feel better or would you rather have something in your heart at all times.
Secondly there are good reasons to believe that God exist. Let me quote few scientists on this:
Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): “Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say ‘supernatural’) plan.”
George Ellis (British astrophysicist): “Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word ‘miraculous’ without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word.”
Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”
Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician): “We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it.”
John O’Keefe (astronomer at NASA): “We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in.”
George Greenstein (astronomer): “As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency – or, rather, Agency – must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”
Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): “A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.”
Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): “The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory.”
Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): “There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all….It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe….The impression of design is overwhelming…..The laws [of physics] … seem to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design… The universe must have a purpose”.
Ed Harrison (cosmologist): “Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God – the design argument of Paley – updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one…. Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument.”
Tony Rothman (physicist): “When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it’s very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it.”
Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): “The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine.”
Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): “I would say the universe has a purpose. It’s not there just somehow by chance.”
Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): “When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics.”
Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics): “It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life.”
Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) “Life in Universe – rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100 billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out of an unaccountably large number of universes, may not apply only to that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be entirely unique.”
Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy) “It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNAresearch have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design.”
Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”
Thirdly here are some independent historical documents that do exist (New Testament by the way is a collection of historical documents-not sure if you are aware of that):
1.The gospel of Mark
2.The gospel of John: independent source SQ
3.The apocryphal gospel of Thomas
4.The gospel of Luke: special source L
5.The gospel of Mathew: missing source M
6.Paul’s epistles
7.Dead sea scrolls which give tons of information about Jewish society in his time, such as different ethical and ritual practices of various Jewish groups, the information and structure of Jewish religious movements, the shape of the scriptures at the time of Jesus, and the diversity of beliefs about the Messiah and the end times
8.Number of references made by well-educated Jewish historian Josephus
9.Reference made by 55 CE historian Thallos
10.Reference by 112 CE the Roman Governer of Pontus Bithynia, Plinny the Younger
11.Roman historian Tacitus (56-120 CE)
Fourthly here are some archaeological evidence discovered
1.The basalt foundation of a synagogue that dates to the first centuary CE has been unearthed in Capernaum. The gospel refer to it 9Mark 1:21-28;3:1-6
2.You can still see the platform and retaining wall of Jerusalem temple where Jesus preached
3.The church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem lies in an old quarry that was just outside the city walls in Jesus’s time. Crucifixions took place outside city walls in Jesus time, and early Christians preserved the memory that this particular quarry was the place where Jesus died and was buried
4.A stone that mentions Pontius Pilate was discovered in 1961 in Caesarea Maritime, on the coast of Israel
5.In 1990 a tomb was discovered south of Jerusalem that contained pieces of 12 ossuaries (bone boxes). Ossuary 3 has the inscription “Qafa” (the Aramaic version of the greek “Caiphas”). Ossuary 6 was more ornate and had two inscriptions mentioning “Yehosef bar Qayafa”, or Joseph son of Caiphas.
6.In 2007 the location of Herod the Great’s tomb at Herodium was identified
Given that Jesus was “nobody” – just a son of carpenter or some “mad”, “crazy” or deluded or deceiving man who socialized mostly with poor, sick “idiots”, lepers and various other outcasts (he wasn’t some rich famous posh warrior or anyone of that sort) the above evidence is quite impressive
Jesus is not real. If he was he is a evil dick.
They are over 3000 evil verses in the Bible more than the Koran.Christians forgot there is another character is a composite of Jesus. I copy and pasted the information. I provided the source below.
Source:http://godsofcanaan.blogspot.com/
Iedud is the only begotten son of El, Father of the Gods.
The story of Iedud, and Jesus are very similar. Both are the ‘only begotten’ sons, and both willingly gave their life for their fathers. The reoccurring storyline of the son dying for the father is a recurring theme in Semitic mythology. Some examples are Abraham, Issac, and El, and Shaddai.
If in fact Iedud is also Jesus, then it is probable that he is the most worshiped deity, surviving into modern times. Regardless, in Canaanite mythology Iedud is very important, as his sacrifice saved the world(http://godsofcanaan.blogspot.com/).
His Story
It was the custom among the ancients, in times of great calamity, in order to prevent the ruin of all, for the rulers of the city or nation to sacrifice to the avenging deities the most beloved of their children as the price of redemption: they who were devoted this purpose were offered mystically. For Cronus, whom the Phœnicians call Il, and who after his death was deified and instated in the planet which bears his name, when king, had by a nymph of the country called Anobret an only son, who on that account is styled Ieoud, for so the Phœnicians still call an only son: and when great dangers from war beset the land he adorned the altar, and invested this son with the emblems of royalty, and sacrificed him(http://godsofcanaan.blogspot.com/).
Fifthly:
Heathor wrote: If dying for ones religion makes it true then Islam is the true religion, which it isn’t.
When someone dies like blowing himself up on the plane he really believes in something. Doesn’t really matter whether what he believes is moronic or noble, true or false he is just really convinced. Early Christians were willing to die, even though they saw their leader being murdered. This shows there was something powerful up there that made them convinced. That’s what this argument is about. Can’t you see it?
Response to Anonymous
“This shows there was something powerful up there that made them convinced.”
No, it doesn’t. I don’t see any evidence that there was any kind of external force “making them convinced”. In fact, humans receive a dopamine reward when they reject new data in favour of old patterns of thinking – the more extreme the ideas, the more often it will be reinforced in this way. No external force is necessary for this to happen.
people believe that people die for what they believe and know.
Isn’t it remarkable that someone who supposedly fabricated the story about Jesus made it so well that many of the places in the gospel have been discovered to be real?
The Gospel story is an masterpiece of literature of all time. How evil and deceitful and ingenious someone’s mind has to be in order to contrive something like that?
But anyway what exactly counts as historical evidence of the resurrection? There are three historical facts which must be explained by any adequate historical hypothesis about Jesus’ fate. Any adequate account of what happened to Jesus must provide an explanation of three events (typically, the discovery of his empty tomb, his post-mortem appearances, and the origin of the disciples’ belief in his resurrection). These can be called as “established” facts because of the fact that these events enjoy the affirmation of the wide majority of New Testament scholarship today (skeptical or atheistic ones are included).
There is not merely a good case to be made that these events really occurred, that is to say, that they are facts, but that the majority of New Testament scholars (skeptical or atheistic ones are included) who have written on this subject agree that they are facts!
I know that this seems startling, even incredible, but it’s true. In a bibliographical survey of over 2,200 publications on the resurrection in English, French, and German since 1975, Gary Habermas found that 75% of scholars accept the historicity of the discovery of Jesus’ empty tomb and that there is near universal agreement on the post-mortem appearances. These can therefore be counted as good evidence of the resurrection.
Since New Testament critics do not simply confess these facts but rather acknowledge them on the strength of the historical evidence, I think it is fair to speak of them as established facts about Jesus that need to be explained. That doesn’t mean that they are certain or indubitable (though N. T. Wright at the end of his voluminous study on Jesus’ resurrection opines that the empty tomb and post-mortem appearances of Jesus have a historical probability so high as to be “virtually certain,” like the death of Augustus Caesar in A.D. 14 or the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70!), but merely that they have a degree of credibility comparable to other commonly accepted facts of ancient history.
So if you maintain that these are not historical facts, then what source of information do you really have that leads you to disagree with over 75% of the trained scholars who have studied this question. How did you come by such insight? How would you refute the evidence of the resurrection which has led so many scholars to the contrary conclusion?
The gospel story is not all that well woven, as there are many contradictions, flaws, impossibilities, implausibilities and repugnant doctrines, etc. See my book [i]Who Was Jesus?[/i] for more information.
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus.html ([url]http://stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus.html[/url])
The gospel story certainly is no more a masterpiece than the [i]Iliad [/i]or [i]Odyssey[/i]. Or Milton’s [i]Paradise Lost[/i] or a thousand other enduring stories. Again, this type is called “historical fiction.” How about the Mahabharata – beautifully and impressively written, so do you believe that the story really happened and the Hindu gods are real?
What [i]might [/i]be considered impressive about the Christ myth is that the creators of Christianity took so many tales and combined them together, but that too had been done a thousand times over in the standard mythmaking of the past. Christianity is simply a continuation of thousands of years of storytelling.
What you have asserted is therefore erroneous and fallacious, including:
[quote]”There is not merely a good case to be made that these events really occurred, that is to say, that they are facts, but that the majority of New Testament scholars (skeptical or atheistic ones are included) who have written on this subject agree that they are facts!”[/quote]
There is not a [i]single [/i]”good case” that the gospel events “really occurred.” There is NO credible scientific evidence that they did, and the evidence points to the story being FICTIONAL, composed of the myths and philosophies of antiquity, along with midrash from the Old Testament. As I’ve previously stated, individuals EDUCATED in ancient religion and mythology can see the independent parts that were used in this FICTIONAL composite.
As concerns “the majority of New Testament scholars,” their opinions are irrelevant, because they are either conditioned to believe [i]a priori [/i] in a “historical” Jesus, without ANY credible scientific evidence; or they are ignorant of the comparative religion and mythology that demonstrates Christ to be a fictional composite of characters; or both. They simply do [i]not [/i]know these important subjects in depth and reside in an arrogant bubble of isolationism as concerns the creation of Christianity.
[quote]”…what source of information do you really have that leads you to disagree with over 75% of the trained scholars who have studied this question.”[/quote]
If you knew my work, you would not need to ask that question. If you wish, you may study my writings here:
http://truthbeknown.com ([url]http://truthbeknown.com[/url])
http://stellarhousepublishing.com ([url]http://stellarhousepublishing.com[/url])
And on this very blog and forum:
http://freethoughtnation.com ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com[/url])
I show how I came by this insight in my books as well.
Refuting the resurrection is very EASY. In the first place, there is no credible scientific evidence that it happened, no historical account by an independent and contemporary writer, and the biblical accounts contradict each other, because they are FICTIONAL. Mark – supposedly the earliest of the gospels or at least a later version of an “Ur-Markus” – didn’t even have the resurrection in it originally. It was a later addition and afterthought. The piecemeal of the gospel story is easy to discern, especially if you know ancient mythology.
Which leads me to the next reason why the resurrection is patently fictional: It can be found in Egyptian mythology, vis-a-vis both Osiris and Horus – quite commonly, in fact. Osiris was resurrected on a regular basis, a common motif that was clearly copied by the creators of Christianity.
So, again, if one actually knows the milieu of the day, rather than residing in that arrogant bubble and vacuum which presumes superiority and divine intervention, one will recognize easily these MYTHS behind the fictional composite.
But that recognition will require STUDY of the ancient world, especially the religion and mythology, rather than pretending to be an expert without such study. And that’s the whole problem with the scholars you cite – most of them are vested interest Christian apologists or other devotees. They are not unbiased and scientific in their investigation, and their conclusions are not thorough or credible.
The law of belief
All religions of the world represent forms of belief, and these beliefs are explained in
many ways. The law of life is belief. What do you believe about yourself, life, and the
universe? It is done unto you, as you believe.
Belief is a thought in your mind, which causes the power of your subconscious to be
distributed into all phases of your life according to your thinking habits. You must realize
the Bible is not talking about your belief in some ritual, ceremony, form, institution, man,
or formula. It is talking about belief itself. The belief of your mind is simply the thought
of your mind. If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. MARK
9:23.
It is foolish to believe in something to hurt or harm you. Remember, it is not the thing
believed in that hurts or harms you, but the belief or thought in your mind, which creates
the result. All your experiences, all your actions, and all the events and
A new Saviour for a new world
I sometimes wonder if I were able to take a peek into the future, say another 2000 years or so, would Jesus or any of the Saviours of antiquity still be remembered? Would they still have a devoted following in a future filled with iner-galactic travel and whatever new marvels we discover?
Perhaps we’ll have a new Saviour by then, or perhaps we’ll still be awaiting the return of one prophecied. I wonder what fairy tales and marvellous stories will be woven around the new Saviours in years to come. Perhaps some of today’s gurus, political leaders, bankers (just kidding) or even celebrities, will develop a substantial cult following, which will grow (through faith alone) into a religion and eventually become a dominant worldwide ideology…written in stone or in whatever data storage systems we’ve invented by then.
Do you think we will still need a saviour by 4013, or will we no longer feel the need? Will we still be living in the ‘cult of the personality’, dependent on the opium of religion to comfort the masses, or do you think that as a species we will have decided to move on to something more progressive and rewarding?
But wait!..if we lose religion, what are we going to replace it with? What will we do with our imaginations? How will we find new ways to torture ourselves and others? Whose name can we kill in?
If we are going to kill off all our old Saviours, can I propose a new one? How about Aung San Suu Kyi? Whoops…I forgot, God only has male progeny. Can we at least agree to keep building the Temples in nice warm climates though…for the tourists as well as the devotees.
We will certainly know before “another 2000 years or so,” Kate. Things are heating up on ye olde Earth along these eschatological lines. Take some early-swallow signs:
* all the evidences now in our time of the truth of reincarnation – books, videos, studies – which is proof of (or at the very least, implies) the existence of ‘something more than Man’ – of the physical universe. Of, in a word: souls, having a human experience. Obviously for some sort of reason/purpose. We can, with justice, posit that purpose; to wit: some sort of spiritual evolution; of consciousness, from all of the life experiences that we have. Growing in spiritual stature.
* We seem to be close to Disclosure – of space beings, who have been visiting our terrestrial space, for some time, to judge by old illustrations and stories (and can apparently flip in and out of our dimension). So they will have something to tell us, from their advanced-civilization perspective, about THEIR take on these spiritual matters. Of, at the least, a Creator.
* Our modern scientists are beginning to understand that there are more dimensions than just the one we are embedded in. That implies a consciousness behind the perceived universe – which itself is beginning to look, to them, like a computer construct; a simulation. A matrix. Not a thing real in itself. Which implies the same thing: a consciousness behind it all.
* Our world monetary system appears about to collapse. That means that we need to look at another form of commerce. Taking the awareness of ‘something more than Man’ into our consideration, we can come up with one, that I would recommend: that we share our goods and services with one another – and give of our best in the process – out of a higher motive than the age-old one of the concept of profit (that, along with its companion, of interest-bearing money, has gotten us into the pickle that we are in). Out of the highest motive that we could ever have: out of gratitude to our Creator for life with meaning. Out of, in a word: Love.
And with that level of consciousness, of awareness, of contact with the higher realms, we should also find out – or at least, be able to find out, for ourselves – what the truth is of the various religions.
The whole truth. Which, as Acharya S has demonstrated so well in her books and articles, is rather at variance with what has come down to us, in our day and age.
Our day and very interesting age, indeed. 🙂
it’s all about faith
Acharya, you see ultimately it’s all about faith. Let me give you an example. Here is what you wrote in one of your emails
[quote] In this regard, there does indeed exist evidence that Jews were influenced by Indian religion. In “Against Apion” (1.22/1.179), Jewish historian Josephus (37-c. 100 AD/CE) recounts the words of Clearchus of Soli (fl. 320 BCE), who told the story of his master Aristotle’s conversation with a Jewish man from “Celesyria” or Syria. Aristotle (384-322 BCE) supposedly stated that the man told him these Syrian Jews “are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calami, and by the Syrians Judaei, and took their name from the country they inhabit, which is called Judea…”[/quote]
For some reason you are eager or willing to believe or place [b][u]your faith[/u][/b] in a “tiny” evidence above so much more than the multiple evidence coming from these sources below
[quote]1.The gospel of Mark
2.The gospel of John: independent source SQ
3.The apocryphal gospel of Thomas
4.The gospel of Luke: special source L
5.The gospel of Mathew: missing source M
6.Paul’s epistles
7.Dead sea scrolls which give tons of information about Jewish society in his time, such as different ethical and ritual practices of various Jewish groups, the information and structure of Jewish religious movements, the shape of the scriptures at the time of Jesus, and the diversity of beliefs about the Messiah and the end times
8.Number of references made by well-educated Jewish historian Josephus
9.Reference made by 55 CE historian Thallos
10.Reference by 112 CE the Roman Governer of Pontus Bithynia, Plinny the Younger
11.Roman historian Tacitus (56-120 CE)[/quote]
Just to give you an example. The burial account is part of Mark’s source material for the story of Jesus’ Passion. This is a very early source which is probably based on eyewitness testimony and dates to within several years of Jesus’ crucifixion. Moreover, Paul in his first letter to the church of Corinth also cites an extremely early source for Jesus’ burial which most scholars date to within a few years or even months of the crucifixion. Independent testimony to Jesus’ burial is also found in the special sources used by Matthew and Luke and in the Gospel of John. Historians consider themselves to have hit historical pay dirt when they have two independent accounts of the same event. But we have the remarkable number of at least five independent sources for Jesus’ burial, some of which are extraordinarily early.
Mark’s Passion source didn’t end with Jesus’ burial, but with the story of the empty tomb, which is tied to the burial account verbally and grammatically. Moreover, Matthew and John rely on independent sources about the empty tomb. Jesus’ empty tomb is also mentioned in the early sermons independently preserved in the Acts of the Apostles (2.29; 13.36), and it’s implied by the very old tradition handed on by Paul in his first letter to the Corinthian church (I Cor. 15.4). Thus, we have multiple, early attestation of the fact of the empty tomb in at least four independent sources.
Notice the focus is on the early, independent sources used by the New Testament authors.
First and foremost is the Passion source which Mark used in writing his Gospel. Whereas most of Mark’s Gospel consists of short anecdotal stories strung like pearls on a string, when we get to the final week of Jesus’ life we encounter a continuous narrative of events from the Jewish plot during the Feast of Unleavened Bread through Jesus’ burial and empty tomb. The events of the Last Supper, arrest, execution, burial, and empty tomb were central to the identity of early Christian communities. According to James D. G. Dunn, “The most obvious explanation of this feature is that the framework was early on fixed within the tradition process and remained so throughout the transition to written Gospels. This suggests in turn a tradition rooted in the memory of the participants and put into that framework by them” (J. D. G. Dunn, Jesus Remembered, 2003, pp. 765-6.) The dominant view among NT scholars is therefore that the Passion narratives are early and based on eyewitness testimony (Mark Allen Powell, JAAR 68 [2000]: 171). Indeed, according to Richard Bauckham, many scholars date Mark’s Passion narrative no later than the 40s (recall that Jesus died in A.D. 30) (Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, 2006, p. 243). So we’re dealing here with an extraordinarily early source.
Now Matthew and Luke probably knew Mark’s Gospel, and used it as one of their sources. But the differences between Mark and the other Synoptics point to other independent sources behind Matthew and Luke. These differences are not plausibly explained as due to editorial changes introduced by Matthew and Luke because of (i) their sporadic and uneven nature (e.g., Mark: “tomb which had been hewn out of rock”; Matthew: “tomb which he hewed in the rock”; (ii) the inexplicable omission of events like Pilate’s interrogating the centurion; and (iii) Matthew and Luke’s agreeing in their wording in contrast to Mark (e.g., Matt. 27.58 = Lk. 23.52 “This man went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.” Also the phrase translated “wrapped it in linen” is identical in Matthew and Luke. How could Matthew and Luke have independently chosen exactly the same wording in contrast to Mark? They both probably had another source. Indeed, as we’ll see when we get to the empty tomb account, differences between Matthew and Luke emerge that suggest multiple sources.
Moreover, John is generally believed to be independent of the Synoptic Gospels. As Paul Barnett points out, “Careful comparison of the texts of Mark and John indicate that neither of these Gospels is dependent on the other. Yet they have a number of incidents in common: For example, . . . the burial of Jesus in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea” (Jesus and the Logic of History, 1997, pp. 104-5).
Finally, the old tradition handed on by Paul to the Corinthian church, which is among the earliest traditions identifiable in the NT, refers to Jesus’ burial in the second line of the tradition. That this is the same event as the burial described in the Gospels becomes evident by comparing Paul’s tradition with the Passion narratives on the one hand and the sermons in the Acts of the Apostles on the other. The four-line tradition handed on by Paul is a summary of the central events of Jesus’ crucifixion, burial by Joseph of Arimathea, the discovery of his empty tomb, and his appearances to the disciples.
What about the empty tomb account? First, it was also part of the pre-Markan Passion narrative. The empty tomb story is syntactically tied to the burial story; indeed, they are just one story. E.g., the antecedent of “him” (Jesus) in Mk. 16:1 is in the burial account (15:43); the women’s discussion of the stone presupposes the stone’s being rolled over the tomb’s entrance; their visiting the tomb presupposes their noting its location in 15.47; the words of the angel “see the place where they laid him” refer back to Joseph’s laying body in the tomb.
As for the other Gospels, that Matthew has an independent tradition of the empty tomb is evident not only from the non-Matthean vocabulary (e.g., the words translated “on the next day,” “the preparation day,” “deceiver,” “guard [of soldiers],” “to make secure,” “to seal”; the expression “on the third day” is also non-Matthean, for he everywhere else uses “after three days;” the expression “chief priests and Pharisees” never appears in Mark or Luke and is also unusual for Matthew), but also from Matt. 28.15: “this story has been spread among Jews till this day,” indicative of a tradition history of disputes with Jewish non-Christians. Luke and John have the non-Markan story of Peter and another disciple inspecting the tomb, which, given John’s independence of Luke, indicates a separate tradition behind the story. Moreover, we have already seen that John’s independence of Mark shows that he has a separate source for the empty tomb.
The early sermons in Acts are likely not created by Luke out of whole cloth but represent early apostolic preaching. We find the empty tomb implied in the contrast between David’s tomb and Jesus’: “David died and was buried and his tomb is with us to this day.” But “this Jesus God has raised up” (2:29-32; cf. 13.36-7). Finally, the third line of the tradition handed on by Paul summarizes, as I have said, the empty tomb story. The German NT critic Klaus Berger concludes: “Without a doubt the grave of Jesus was found to be empty, and, moreover, the texts about it are not in general dependent upon Mark” (ZKT, 1993, p. 436).
Thus, the burial and empty tomb of Jesus enjoy multiple, early, independent attestation. While some of these traditions could be variations on a common tradition (such as Luke and John’s tradition of the disciples’ inspection of the empty tomb in response to the women’s report), they cannot all be so regarded because they narrate different events. Even in the case of variations on a common tradition, we are pushed back so early, as Dunn emphasizes, that we must now ask what events occurred to leave such an early impression on the tradition, and the obvious explanation is the burial of Jesus in the tomb and the discovery of the empty tomb. While multiple, independent attestation alone would not render the burial and empty tomb “virtually certain,” keep in mind that this is but one line of evidence among many, so that the cumulative case for these facts is very powerful, indeed.
Since your initial contention about me “placing faith” in a comment by Josephus is in itself fallacious, I have little interest in spending my time reading or responding to the rest of your long post.
It’s interesting how Christian apologists like you constantly dun nonbelievers with requests for “primary sources,” but when we turn to them, you make ridiculous assertions such as “faith” being involved in reading a [i]secular [/i]source for an apparent fact that is supported by several factors. In the meantime, you believe all manner of incredible and supernatural claims, without any real proof.
Whatever distractions you can toss out in order to keep us enthralled by the same fabulous fairytales you adhere to without proof, eh?
In the meantime, what I’ve stated previously still stands. I don’t have time to address your contentions point by point – such as that the “empty tomb” is a mythical motif from Egyptian religion ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/contributing-writers/63-acharya-s/455-is-lazarus-a-remake-of-osiris.html[/url]), for one – but it is obvious that [i]you [/i]are operating on faith.
I must also wonder why you are on my mailing list in the first place, since you evidently are not gaining anything from it. If you want to find out about Christian origins, you will need to study the milieu of the time, which includes the religion and mythology of numerous cultures around the Mediterranean of the time and dating back thousands of year – a substantial body of knowledge that one does not acquire by skimming encyclopedias.
Until you study this material in depth – which requires reading ancient languages such as Hebrew, Greek and Latin – you will not know what you are looking at in the gospel story and New Testament texts. Reading them in a vacuum will not suffice to make of one an expert in the subject of Christian origins, but simply a Christian apologist who believes blindly and relies on faith, not facts.
“Two men say they’re Jesus/One of them must be wrong.” — Dire Straits,[i] Industrial Disease[/i]
Thanks. One would need to tell the German people that they were “absolutely ludicrous” for equating Hitler with Jesus. And one would also need to tell Hitler that he was “absolutely ludicrous” for declaring that Jesus was his Lord and Savior and that he was following in his footsteps as the new savior. (The discussion of the word “messiah” as a Hebrew term is irrelevant here, as it is the concept we are after, which is “savior” in English.)
Hitler had no problem accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, having been raised a Catholic ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/component/content/article/40-general/242-hitler-a-christian-not-a-pagan.html[/url]).
In a speech in 1922 ([url]http://books.google.com/books?id=ARloAAAAMAAJ&q=%22My+feeling+as+a+Christian+leads+me+to+be+a+fighter%22&dq=%22My+feeling+as+a+Christian+leads+me+to+be+a+fighter%22&cd=2[/url]), Hitler remarked:
[quote]My feeling as a Christian leads me to be a fighter for my Lord and Saviour. It leads me to the man who, at one time lonely and with only a few followers, recognized the Jews for what they were, and called on me to fight against them… As a Christian, I owe something to my own people.[/quote]
As late as 1941, Hitler remarked to one of his generals, Gerhard Engel: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” ([url]http://books.google.com/books?id=yVgTAQAAMAAJ&q=%22I+am+now+as+before+a+Catholic+and+will+always+remain+so%22&dq=%22I+am+now+as+before+a+Catholic+and+will+always+remain+so%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pIgdUcSzJoS1hAe15IGAAg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwATgK[/url])
Not only did Hitler perceive himself as a “fighter for Christ,” following in his footsteps, but his followers clearly viewed him as part of a divine mission – as Christ and the Holy Ghost:
[quote]The rise of Hitler’s Germany provides an interesting case in point, showing a nation swept by militaristic sentiment coupled with a sense of divine mission. The churches accepted Hitler’s warmongering with religious joy. In April 1937, a Christian organization in the Rhineland passed a resolution that Hitler’s word was the law of God and possessed “divine authority.” Reichsminister for Church Affairs Hans Kerrl announced: “There has arisen a new authority as to what Christ and Christianity really are—that is Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler…is the true Holy Ghost.” And so the pious gave him their blessing, and the churches gave him God’s. [/quote]
At the same time as he was embracing Catholicism, Hitler was rejecting Paganism, as in this quote ([url]http://books.google.com/books?id=D4cJAQAAIAAJ&q=It+seems+to+me+that+nothing+would+be+more+foolish+than+to+re-establish+the+worship+of+Wotan.+Our+old+mythology+had+ceased+to+be+viable+when+Christianity+implanted+itself.+Nothing+dies+unless+it+is+moribund.&dq=It+seems+to+me+that+nothing+would+be+more+foolish+than+to+re-establish+the+worship+of+Wotan.+Our+old+mythology+had+ceased+to+be+viable+when+Christianity+implanted+itself.+Nothing+dies+unless+it+is+moribund.&cd=3[/url]):
[quote]It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to re-establish the worship of Wotan. Our old mythology had ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund.[/quote]
Brian Syndrome
It is quite easy to tell that sufferers from the Jerusalem Syndrome are not the real messiah. Monty Python explained this in The Life of Brian as follows.
ARTHUR: Hail Messiah!
BRIAN: I’m not the Messiah!
ARTHUR: I say You are, Lord, and I should know. I’ve followed a few.
FOLLOWERS: Hail Messiah!
BRIAN: I’m not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand?! Honestly!
GIRL: [b]Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.[/b]
BRIAN: What?! Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
FOLLOWERS: He is! He is the Messiah!
BRIAN: Now, f**k off!
silence
ARTHUR: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
BRIAN: Oh, just go away! Leave me alone.
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=27404#p27404 ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=27404#p27404[/url])
Thanks. The history of religions school did not “collapse.” It was beaten down by vested interests repeating the same fallacies you have tossed out here. The result was the same old elitists foisting their fabulous fairytales upon the unsuspecting public, a delusion you are attempting to shore up with your own fallacies.
We can show the correspondences quite handily, in the very areas in which these myths regarding Christ were formulated. It is fallacious to claim that there were no dying-and-rising gods in the Levant during the era when Christianity began to be formulated. These ideas had been circulating around the entire Mediterranean for centuries before the common era, and there was no pristine vacuum or line drawn where they were not allowed to penetrate.
The Bible itself discusses the god Tammuz, as you yourself note from the book of Ezekiel. As the Bible has been considered to be the timeless holy writ of God, you can be sure that those who were obsessively reading it were well aware of this notion of a dying-and-rising savior god. And if they were not, why on Earth would any of them accept that Jesus – a dying-and-rising god – was their messiah?
The proof for Christ as an amalgamation can be found in numerous writings, including many of my own ([url]http://truthbeknown.com/christconspiracy.html[/url]), which were linked here, so we have already provided this evidence. The request for such evidence reflects that the asker does not know the subject matter very well.
The evidence is there, but relatively few people actually will look at it.
[quote]It boggles the imagination to think that the original disciples would have suddenly and sincerely come to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was risen from the dead just because they had heard of pagan myths about dying and rising seasonal gods.[/quote]
No, it doesn’t boggle the mind, because you have presented the scenario fallaciously. There is no evidence that there [i]were[/i] any “original disciples” of a historical Jesus in the first place, and since they didn’t exist as such, they didn’t behave in the manner you have depicted. There is, however, the testimony of Justin Martyr underscoring that early Christian apologists [i]were[/i] aware of dying-and-rising gods – and how could they not be, since these gods DID “exist,” mythologically speaking? If the Christian apologists did not know ancient religion and mythology, they had no business making commentary thereupon or writing supposedly erudite polemics against it.
In his [i]First Apology[/i], Church father and saint Justin Martyr remarked:
[quote]Chapter 21. Analogies to the history of Christ.
And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and [b]died, and rose again[/b], and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.[/quote]
And, again, if Jews were totally against the idea of dying-and-rising gods and found it “abhorrent,” why would they follow the dying-and-rising god Jesus as their messiah?
In the meantime, the best place to look for Christian origins is not Israel/Palestine, other than for the origins of the Old Testament “messianic scriptures” used to create this amalgam, is Alexandria, Egypt, where there was an enormous library and where these ideas were being floated around concerning Osiris, Horus, Serapis and other deities.
Your comment here is just snide foolishness:
[quote]When someone says that Christian beliefs about Jesus are derived from pagan mythology, I think you should laugh. Then look at them wide-eyed and with a big grin, and exclaim, “Do you really believe that?” Act as though you’ve just met a flat earther or Roswell conspirator. You could say something like, “Man, those old theories have been dead for over a hundred years! Where are you getting this stuff?” Tell them this is just sensationalist junk, not serious scholarship. If they persist, then ask them to show you the actual passages narrating the supposed parallel. They’re the ones who are swimming against the scholarly consensus, so make them work hard to save their religion. I think you’ll find that they’ve never even read the primary sources.[/quote]
Right, because knowing that there were dying-and-rising gods – mythical figures – and then placing the supernatural Jewish messiah in the same category is just sooo ridiculous, while believing in this Jewish superhuman who was born of a virgin, walked on water, cured the blind and raised the dead, transfigured on a mount, himself rose from the dead and then flew off into heaven is so much less laughable and so much more rational! NOT.
And if you – so smug and condescending – actually knew the subject matter, you would know already where it comes from and would realize that by asking such a question you are simply displaying your own ignorance. You would also know that these “theories” come from primary sources dating back thousands of years, not from scholarship from the past century. I have provided these sources repeatedly – in their original languages, which I can read – so there exists no excuse for such ignorance.
Rather than displaying extreme naivete and gullibility in believing blindly in the fictitious fairytales of a particular ethnicity, or sneering and smirking mindlessly, the intelligent reader will want to study the subject.
[quote]”Our tribal customs have become the core of your moral code. Our tribal laws have furnished the basic groundwork of all your august constitutions and legal systems. Our legends and our folk-tales are the sacred lore which you croon to your infants. Our poets have filled your hymnals and your prayer-books. Our national history has become an indispensable part of the learning of your pastors and priests and scholars. Our kings, our statesmen, our prophets, our warriors are your heroes. Our ancient little country is your Holy Land. Our national literature is your Holy Bible. What our people thought and taught has become inextricably woven into your very speech and tradition, until no one among you can be called educated who is not familiar with our racial heritage.
“Jewish artisans and Jewish fishermen are your teachers and your saints, with countless statues carved in their image and innumerable cathedrals raised to their memories. A Jewish maiden is your ideal of motherhood and womanhood. A Jewish rebel-prophet is the central figure in your religious worship. We have pulled down your idols, cast aside your racial inheritance, and substituted for them our God and our traditions. No conquest in history can even remotely compare with this clean sweep of our conquest over you.” –Marcus Ravage, [i]Century Magazine[/i] ([url]http://tbknews.blogspot.com/2009/05/is-jesus-myth.html[/url])[/quote]
The burden of proof rests on those attempting to foist fabulous fairytales upon the rest of us. We are not required to disprove such unproved claims of supernatural and miraculous events.
The fact remains that the evidence indicates the “Jesus Christ” of the New Testament to be a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple “people” is no one.
It is absolutely ludicrous to equate Hitler with any messianic figure. The term messiah means redeemer and was used only in conjunction with these Middle Eastern Hebrews who were forcibly converted to Talmudism by the Babylonians 2600 years ago. They were anticipating a redeemer who would free them from enslavement to the Babyonians, not to the Egyptians. This term has absolutely nothing to do with the term kristos, which means shining one, the living sun. This apocryphal Jesus, if he hadn’t been a fiction, would have been a Talmudic Hebrew. Hebrew later came to be equated will the medieval term Jew. I can show that the term Jew was never used in the ancient world and that it has nothing to do with the term Judea. Hitler was not particularly thrilled about anything that was connected with this nebulous term Jew, so it is absurd to state that Hitler had a messianic complex; a term that can only be legitimately used in conjunction with the ethnocentrically bigoted Hebrews, who were eradicated en masse in the first century by the Romans. Since he revered Germanic paganism, he might have thought that he was Balder, the Germanic sun god.
Today, humanity needs a redeemer who will free it from the oppression of Zionist usury.
Pagan myths
Well history of Religions school collapsed as an explanation of the origin of Christian beliefs about Jesus because there was no causal connection between pagan myths and the origin of Christian beliefs about Jesus. Take, for example, the resurrection. Jews were familiar with the seasonal deities mentioned above (Ez 37.1-14) and found them abhorrent. Therefore, there is no trace of cults of dying and rising gods in first century Palestine. For Jews, the resurrection to glory and immortality would not take place until the general resurrection of all the dead at the end of the world. It boggles the imagination to think that the original disciples would have suddenly and sincerely come to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was risen from the dead just because they had heard of pagan myths about dying and rising seasonal gods.
When someone says that Christian beliefs about Jesus are derived from pagan mythology, I think you should laugh. Then look at them wide-eyed and with a big grin, and exclaim, “Do you really believe that?” Act as though you’ve just met a flat earther or Roswell conspirator. You could say something like, “Man, those old theories have been dead for over a hundred years! Where are you getting this stuff?” Tell them this is just sensationalist junk, not serious scholarship. If they persist, then ask them to show you the actual passages narrating the supposed parallel. They’re the ones who are swimming against the scholarly consensus, so make them work hard to save their religion. I think you’ll find that they’ve never even read the primary sources.
If they ever do cite a primary source passage, I think you’d be surprised what you find. For example, in a debate on the resurrection with Robert Price, he claimed that Jesus’ healing miracles were derived from mythological healing stories like those concerning Asclepius. His oponent insisted that he read to us a passage from the primary sources showing the purported parallel. When he did so, the tale he produced bore no resemblance whatsoever to the Gospel stories of Jesus’ healing miracles! It was the best proof that the stories were not genealogically related.
Remember: anyone pressing this objection has a burden of proof to bear. He needs to show that the narratives are parallel and, moreover, that they are causally connected. Insist that they bear that burden if you are to take their objection seriously
Faith
Faith is the card that Christians think trumps everything else. When you ask them for proof of their fairy tales and it can’t be produced ,they always play the faith card. It’s their way of saying you win but I’m not going to admit it. Funny how the ego works. One thing is for certain , when you lay dead for hours or days , certain irreversible things happen to the body and it can’t be jump started back to life period. The only way that one could ever rise from the” dead “is that they were never dead to begin with. So if the graves of the saints were opened and they walked among the people after this Jesus person was murdered ,does it not seam probable that CNN or someone would have done an on location with zombies story? Ohh I know , you have your faith.
Flawed, subjective experience mistaken for gospel
The article does a good job of introducing The Messaih Complex and Jerusalem Syndrome, but seeing as you, Acharya S., have such a broad knowledge of a wide variety of religious beliefs, ancient and modern, it falls short in that I was expecting you to reveal a unique perspective on the whys and wherefores of these disorders.
You might have argued that Messiah Complex, for example, is a delusion which would inetivably affect some members of those who believe in the Christ story. Since, in the Christ story there exists a human figure around which the story of everything is central, and for each and every person, believer or non-believer, their subjective experience of life is central to the story of life itself, from their perspective, and since there’s really nothing preventing the mysterious Christ figure from being reincarnated as any of the aforementioned persons suffering from the Messiah Complex, at least in the minds of those afflicted, then it is inevitable that at least someone would end up thinking this way.
Another interesting angle to explore, is whether or not the person that moderns refer to today as “Jesus Christ”, might himself have been afflicted with a Messiah Complex, as many of his contemporaries. If that’s the case, then what’s the difference between Jesus and Manson? The number of followers? The longevity of their following? What’s the difference between a religion, and a charismatic cult, anyway?
I do appreciate what you’re doing with your books and your website, and I am subscribed to your newsletter. I just think that you could have gone deeper in this article.
Thanks, but the article is already long enough, and I did not set out to write a comprehensive monograph. I think my point is made well enough, and I am obviously under no obligation to go into any greater depth. What you are seeking is probably already covered in journals by mental health professionals.
Sorry, but as I’ve demonstrated thoroughly here already, “kek” and “Anastasia,” your contentions are for the most part erroneous and derive from Christian apologetics. In fact, it appears that you are not even reading my responses but are simply copying and pasting from other Christian apologists, without attribution.
The history of religions school did not “collapse” for want of evidence. The parallels are not “spurious.” These are simply falsehoods. There is plenty of evidence to prove that the “Jesus Christ” of the New Testament is a mythical amalgam of ideas floating around the Mediterranean at the time. The focus on the 40-mile strip of land called “Palestine” is in itself a spurious argument, as it was not isolated or in a vacuum, and most of the Christian effort did not take place there. It took place at Alexandria, Egypt.
Here is another falsehood:
[quote]The Gospel stories of Jesus’ virginal conception are, in fact, without parallel in the ancient Near East. [/quote]
Utter nonsense. The virgin-birth stories were quite popular all over the Mediterranean, including the Near East. But, again, the Christian effort took place largely in Egypt, where the virgin-birth story has been traced to some 7,000 years ago. Like your predecessors who managed to push the factual information into the recesses of scholarship – out of their Christian biases – you are simply repeating falsehoods out of your own ignorance.
Again, if you knew the subject, you would already know these facts, but you are not an expert and do not know what you are talking about. For example, both Neith and Isis were considered to be VIRGIN MOTHERS, long before the common era, and their cults were not confined magically to Egypt; nor was the idea of the virgin birth. If you had even done a simple search on this very site, you would have found abundant proof of this contention – and you would have also understood the meaning of the “virgin birth” or [i]parthenogenesis[/i]. Yes, so common is this mythical motif that experts use this technical term, parthenogenesis ([url]http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-8327295676949120%3Ao4kcodsrg5k&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=parthenogenesis&sa=Search&siteurl=freethoughtnation.com%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle%26id%3D770%26joscclean%3D1%26comment_id%3D12246%23josc12246&ref=freethoughtnation.com%2Fadministrator%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_comment&ss=2167j610353j15#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=parthenogenesis&gsc.page=1[/url]), to describe it.
Here are several links that provide the proof – but you will likely not read them and will continue to repeat falsehoods based on ignorance, as that is the way of Christian apologists. It is because of such willful ignorance and bias that this information has been suppressed – a development that all thinking people should resent.
Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity ([url]http://www.truthbeknown.com/virgin-mother-goddesses.html[/url])
Neith, Virgin Mother of the World ([url]http://www.truthbeknown.com/neith.html[/url])
ISIS IS A VIRGIN MOTHER!!! ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/contributing-writers/63-acharya-s/382-isis-is-a-virgin-mother.html[/url])
Was Horus Born on December 25th of a Virgin? ([url]http://www.truthbeknown.com/horus.html[/url])
Attis: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, Crucified and Resurrected after Three Days ([url]http://www.truthbeknown.com/attis.html[/url])
Dionysus: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, Killed and Resurrected after Three Days ([url]http://www.truthbeknown.com/dionysus.html[/url])
I have also had published in a peer-reviewed anthology ([url]http://iranian.com/main/blog/nabarz/anahita-ancient-persian-goddess-and-zoroastrian-yazata-0.html[/url]) an article entitled, “Was the Persian Goddess Anahita the Pre-Christian Virgin Mother of Mithra?”
Thus, despite the best efforts of vested and biased interests trying to suppress this important information with falsehoods such as you have posted here, the truth is getting out there.
As we can see, the virgin-mother concept was alive and well, in the very areas in question, amid the very cultures who clearly influenced Christianity.
I can do the same with the rest of your fallacious contentions and nitpicking nonsense, which appears to be largely copy and paste from other apologist websites repeating the same falsehoods.
Try also here:
Dying and Rising Gods ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2354[/url])
As can also be seen, it is not we who are doing “mental gymnastics” but Christian apologists like you who are presenting falsehoods. No one is disparaging Christian writers simply because they are Christian, so that is an absurd straw man you have created for yourself. In my previous comment, I have quoted early Church father Justin Martyr, without dismissing what he said – I have little doubt that he is quite correct in his contention, repeated here:
[quote]Chapter 21. Analogies to the history of Christ.
And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.[/quote]
As we can see, Justin basically states that these motifs concerning Christ are “nothing different” from what was being said about the “sons of Jupiter” or the Greek/Roman gods. Martyr is assuredly correct, and the Christian apologist blather you are posting here trying to nitpick differences is false. So, no one is disparaging Christian commentary simply because it comes from Christians. I too was raised a Christian, by the way, and became a born-again briefly, before discovering these FACTS, which are scientific and common sensical, not requiring us to do REAL mental gymnastics by believing in a Jewish superhuman engaged in miracles and supernatural events.
There is MUCH more to this subject of comparative religion and mythology, with plenty of primary sources proving the parallels to be real and Christ to be a mythical amalgam. So, stop copying and pasting false claims from Christian apologist websites and do a search here, if you would a like a real education.
Otherwise, I have no interest in continuing this debate with someone who doesn’t know the subject matter and who is simply repeating falsehoods written by someone else, e.g., William Lane Craig ([url]http://www.reasonablefaith.org/jesus-and-pagan-mythology[/url]), who likewise is not an expert on the subject of comparative religion and mythology but is a Christian apologist trying to shore up his faith at all costs. (That’s called “plagiarism,” by the way, which appears to be what the initial writers of the gospel story were involved in as well. Or, to be kind in their case, we will call it “borrowing.”)
Speaking of William Lane Craig and his article:
Jesus and Pagan Mythology | Reasonable Faith
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/jesus-and-pagan-mythology
Dr. Craig discusses Dr. Trygge N.D. Mettinger and his book, ‘The Riddle of Resurrection: “Dying and Rising Gods” in the Ancient Near East,’ which has been fallaciously used to shore up Dr. Craig’s faith, however, when one actually reads Dr. Mettinger’s book for oneself a very different picture is painted. That’s precisely what happened in the following link to the thread below when a Christian apologist tried to do the same thing but got caught big time when Acharya read Dr. Mettinger’s book ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14379#p14379[/url]) herself.
The Christian apologist was so embarrassed that he got caught that he never came back. Far too many Christian apologists make these same fallacious arguments about books, facts and evidence that they themselves have never actually studied but, instead simply copy/paste or in kek’s case, plagiarize, other Christian apologists without ever knowing what they’re talking about so, they end up repeating the same false information across blogs and internet forums, Youtube videos, books etc.
It’s quite a disservice to humanity, really. Here’s just a couple more but there are too many to keep track of:
Worldwide Biblical Artifacts Fraud Ring Exposed ([url]http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2563[/url])
1st-century Mark fragment discovered? ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/contributing-writers/63-acharya-s/654-1st-century-gospel-of-mark-fragment-discovered.html[/url])
Forum thread ([url]http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4030[/url])
”There is plenty of evidence to prove that the “Jesus Christ” of the New Testament is a mythical amalgam of ideas floating around the Mediterranean at the time”
Who can prove that Archrya lived, in the next 200years. What she said will not be evidence according to her and her photo might as well be the photo of any person. In absence of those who saw [well?] her, it cannot be proved her existence. The existence of Archrya is in no other form but the belief that such a character existed and had an identifiable persona. Alas, people may have conflicted persona. One is led to believe that others can vouch for another according to what he or she says, in a consistent manner. So an anti-christ rhetoric may well lead others to say, yes, that is archrya’s work. she did indeed exist. So therefore the person of archrya is not necessary to be in existence, but her views and direction shall outlive her body. [do not take anti-christ personally, but is a factual thing. whether the position is good or bad has not been asserted. yet]
one does not really know what it is that you are trying to prove.
That’s a silly argument. There are thousands of pages of writings by me and photographs, videos and audios of me. There are many legal documents proving my existence. Thousands of people have known me personally.
Moreover, I’m not professing to be the all-powerful daughter of God whose very life is necessary for the salvation of mankind. Such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Calling my work “anti-christ rhetoric” is a calumny which could be used to make it appear to be evil, according to biblical doctrines. Such vitriol has led to the deaths of millions of people in the name of Christ – and you wonder what I am trying to prove?
It should be obvious to those who are sensate: Christianity is a hoax upon mankind, one that has caused an enormous amount of suffering. Never heard of the Inquisition? The witch burnings? The invasion of other peoples’ lands and the slaughter of the natives? The subsequent domination by the conquerors, as with the Native Americans, whose languages were forbidden and their children raped by priests?
Here’s a huge list of atrocities committed in the name of Christ – do you still not understand what I’m trying to prove?
Victims of the Christian faith ([url]http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm[/url])
Moreover, this mythical “Jewish” composite draws from numerous other cultures, which were then derogated and destroyed – that’s a serious injustice. Important scientific knowledge was lost and hidden when these myths were turned into a “Jewish messiah” – again, a serious injustice.
[quote]”Our tribal customs have become the core of your moral code. Our tribal laws have furnished the basic groundwork of all your august constitutions and legal systems. Our legends and our folk-tales are the sacred lore which you croon to your infants. Our poets have filled your hymnals and your prayer-books. Our national history has become an indispensable part of the learning of your pastors and priests and scholars. Our kings, our statesmen, our prophets, our warriors are your heroes. Our ancient little country is your Holy Land. Our national literature is your Holy Bible. What our people thought and taught has become inextricably woven into your very speech and tradition, until no one among you can be called educated who is not familiar with our racial heritage.
“Jewish artisans and Jewish fishermen are your teachers and your saints, with countless statues carved in their image and innumerable cathedrals raised to their memories. A Jewish maiden is your ideal of motherhood and womanhood. A Jewish rebel-prophet is the central figure in your religious worship. We have pulled down your idols, cast aside your racial inheritance, and substituted for them our God and our traditions. No conquest in history can even remotely compare with this clean sweep of our conquest over you.” Marcus Ravage, [i]The Century Magazine[/i], v. 115, no. 3, The Century Co., NY, 1928, p. 346ff[/quote]
If the facts are as I have stated, then they need to be known – that’s what the point is.
History of Religions
The collapse of the old History of Religions school took place for primarily two reasons. First, scholars came to realize that the alleged parallels are spurious. The ancient world was a virtual cornucopia of myths of gods and heroes. Comparative studies in religion and literature require sensitivity to their similarities and differences, or distortion and confusion inevitably result. Unfortunately, those who adduced parallels to Christian beliefs failed to exercise such sensitivity. Take, for example, the story of the Virgin Birth, or, more accurately, Jesus’ virginal conception. The alleged pagan parallels to this story concern tales of gods’ assuming bodily form and having sexual intercourse with human females to sire divine-human progeny (like Hercules). As such these stories are exactly the opposite of the Gospel story of Mary’s conceiving Jesus apart from any sexual relations. The Gospel stories of Jesus’ virginal conception are, in fact, without parallel in the ancient Near East.
Or consider Jesus’ resurrection from the dead. Many of the alleged parallels to this event are actually apotheosis stories, the divinization and assumption of the hero into heaven (Hercules, Romulus). Others are disappearance stories, asserting that the hero has vanished into a higher sphere (Apollonius of Tyana, Empedocles). Still others are seasonal symbols for the crop cycle, as the vegetation dies in the dry season and comes back to life in the rainy season (Tammuz, Osiris, Adonis). Some are political expressions of Emperor worship (Julius Caesar, Caesar Augustus). None of these is parallel to the Jewish idea of the resurrection of the dead. David Aune, who is a specialist in comparative ancient Near Eastern literature, concludes, “no parallel to them [resurrection traditions] is found in Graeco-Roman biography” (“The Genre of the Gospels,” in Gospel Perspectives II, ed. R. T. France and David Wenham [Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1981], p. 48).
There are evidences regarding the original disciples. Take for example James the brother of Jesus who became disciple of Jesus. In the Antiquities of the Jews (Book 20, Chapter 9, 1) Josephus refers to the stoning of “James the brother of Jesus” by order of Ananus ben Animus, a Herodian-era High Priest who died c. 68 AD [quote]“…And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus… Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned…”[/quote]
Or take the disciple John. When John was aged, he trained Polycarp who later became Bishop of Smyrna. Polycarp taught Irenaeus, and passed on to him stories about John. In Against Heresies, Irenaeus relates how Polycarp told a story of [quote] “…John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, “Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within…”[/quote]
Or take disciple Peter. Clement of Rome, in his Letter to the Corinthians , written c. 80–98, speaks of Peter’s martyrdom in the following terms: [quote]”Let us take the noble examples of our own generation. Through jealousy and envy the greatest and most just pillars of the Church were persecuted, and came even unto death… Peter, through unjust envy, endured not one or two but many labours, and at last, having delivered his testimony, departed unto the place of glory due to him.”[/quote]
As any of these evidences bove do not fit your “pagan-origin” theory particularly well you are likely to do mental acrobatics with it to discredit it as best you can
Note that it is a fallacious circular reasoning to assume that just because some evidence comes from a Christian person (like Clement of Rome or Polycarp or Irenaeus) it must be fabricated. Why? Because “Christians are evil wicked narrow-minded imbeciles who love to counterfeit and forge things”.
So now you will resort to ad hom insults that are best applied to yourself, who have lied and plagiarized repeatedly on my blog. You have been shown to be arguing well above your head this entire time, which is why you resorted to plagiarizing Craig’s work, since you yourself are not competent in this subject.
As concerns Mithra, once again you don’t know what you’re talking about, haven’t studied the subject, and are merely blathering, as usual, while throwing in infantile insults and fallacious fits for good measure.
I’d say you can start with the following page on Mithra, but I’m sure you won’t read it, because you are too busy spreading falsehoods and insults.
Mithra: The Pagan Christ ([url]http://truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm[/url])
Reading an encyclopedia entry or Christian apologist commentary does NOT make of one an expert, and your regurgitation of the typical rebuttal simply proves that your knowledge of this subject is very shallow.
Did you read all of the links I previously provided? Of course not, as you are unwilling to look at the evidence, all the while dunning us for requests for it.
I would gladly debate Craig, as he doesn’t know what he is talking about, is a vested-interested Christian apologist engaged in compelling mystical mumbo-jumbo upon the unsuspecting public, and is not an expert AT ALL on the subject of Jesus mythicism.
Since you are an apparent brainwashed plagiarist, no matter how much evidence I dig up, you will continue to cling to your “faith” at all costs, so your betting on Craig proves nothing about the FACTS.
By the way, despite your calumny, I’ve been studying religion for several DECADES, most assuredly work in many languages, and know Christianity and New Testament scholarship quite well – facts you would also know if you had actually read my work. So, once again you can only resort to lies and vitriol. Don’t bother posting more of your mendacious and insulting trash here. I only respond so that others will see the sort of mendacity and sociopathy we are up against.
big-headedness and mental illness
Actually it would be great for you to have a debate with William Graig someday. I know who I’d place my bets on.
Well there is just no harm in me copying and pasting few bits here and there.
Here is what you say quite often in your responses
[quote]For those who have studied ancient religion and mythology in depth, who are real experts and not ignorant of these subjects, what I have stated above is quite obvious[/quote]
Well, I might also say that you come across as big-headed….and arrogant… so convinced that just because you studied mythology (for 5 years or whatever) and can speak few languages…. this makes you the expert….the person who “sees the truth”….the one who “cracked” the Bible……I could also say that you might have lack of New Testament scholarship and your views might be biased or ignorant as you are being gripped with Mythology …..everywhere you go you see Myths….Myths.…Myths everywhere…….….which is understandable as that’s probably what you know the best….…in psychology some psychotic illnesses resemble that sort of behaviour (this would be related to your article above about mental phenomena)……as well as being paranoid with the idea that Christians are pious corrupted people capable of forging and fabricating things only…….Do you honestly believe that christians corrupted all their documents?
Here is a perfect example of fallacy
[quote]I have also had published in a peer-reviewed anthology an article entitled, “Was the Persian Goddess Anahita the Pre-Christian Virgin Mother of Mithra?”[/quote]
Mithras is depicted as being born from a rock. He is shown as emerging from a rock, already in his youth, with a dagger in one hand and a torch in the other. He is nude, is wearing a Phrygian cap and is holding his legs together. Mithra was formed within a solid mountain, which he emerged from. Logically, this would have left a cave behind. There was no virgin involved in his birth, unless you want to say that because the mountain presumably never had sex, it was a virgin.
You actually have the temerity to claim:
Anastasia Kek: “Well there is just no harm in me copying and pasting few bits here and there.”
Wow, just wow! It’s as if you’ve been trained by JP Holding and company. You have just lost all credibility.
You’re absolutely right on the point that’s it’s fine to copy/paste, however, it is a [b]REQUIREMENT[/b] to cite the source not pawn it off as your own. You must at least add quotation marks and provide the citation. A link is optional but helpful to the convenience of others who might be having trouble finding it.
Now, anybody who has any education at all knows the above so, what’s your excuse for committing what is considered a very serious offence called plagiarism? People can lose their jobs and even get kicked out of college for it:
[quote]”Plagiarism is the “wrongful appropriation” and “purloining and publication” of another author’s “language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions,” and the representation of them as one’s own original work.”
“Plagiarism is considered academic dishonesty and a breach of journalistic ethics. It is subject to sanctions like expulsion.”
“… in academia and industry it is a serious moral offence, and cases of plagiarism can constitute copyright infringement.”
– plagiarism ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism[/url])[/quote]
😀 I like your answer. It is my belief also… about the Jesus of the New Testament… and the rest too.
I just wonder why, if those people — as well as the majority of religion’s believers — are really, really having “faith” in their Jesus and are really, really followers of the human religion founded on his supposed life and teaching… well, why all this violence, why the racism, wars, rapes and orgies and depraved sex, why torturing and killing animals and eating their flesh, why slavery and need of money and powertrip, why belittling women into submission while the god that is supposed to have done all what is around us made it in harmony, beauty and equality?
I am not a believer in human religions as a “religion” that is preaching all this is not of high vibrations. How could you elevate your spiritual being/soul/or whatever name you want to give to this Force, if your thoughts are ones of segregations, genocide, hate, violence.
I really like your blog and whish I had more money to buy more of your articles or books. It is interesting to see, when really looking in our past to the real events, how everything had been copied, mistranslated, tweaked to please the depraved rulers, invented and fictionized… frightening!
If Jesus would have lived, why don’t we found any writings or graffitis or bas-reliefs or sculptures of him like we find from Appolonius of Tyana who lived, at the same period of time, a life of teaching/preaching/healing/etc…
Now… saying that… you wrote that people consider Shiva and Buddha and others of the like, I presume, to be the reincarnation of Jesus… well.. these beings lived before Jesus… how could they be his reincarnation? I think it should be the contrary… it is Jesus who would be the reincarnation of these illuminated beings who lived real life in a far past and left wonderful teaching of spiritual elevation.
Thank you again! You’re awesome 🙂
Well put. Thank you for your insights and kind regards.
The lusion is not dangerous but most natural. Danger arises in 2 ways
[myself and the others]
1] The owing of the reality [suited for all men] to one body who cannot contain it thereby giving rise to an ego and pride which is not containable by the one person, thus leading him to act outside the scope of those who he is realised above
[it is like the fear of intellect, that once was. In that era Archrya may have been submitted to a mental institute or perhaps burnt as a witch. lol. one is led to believe. But long may her likes live. But the ego is a most dangerous things], or indeed for an enlightened to walk among the unlightened, or the spirited among the spiritless. This leads to the other factor that create dangerment in the natural phenomenon of spiritualisation.
2]Anti-spiritualism, like anti-intellectualism would necessarily create an environment [negative duality] whereby one environment puts pressure unto the survival of the other and may cause the other environment to experience pressure that amounts to it acting out in a bizzare manner.
The short cowboy stranger weighs in yet again
It’s obvious my post above was not read/ understood.
Apologists and devotees alike MUST contend that the scientific and secular have every right to stand their ground.
But if you are one who believes in spirituality and validity of the bible,,, then you should go and read what SIGN is offered to unbelievers and know that you are as wrong as Jonah for feeding your own ego by pushing the issue! And get yourself swallowed by PRESENTABLE facts.
It’s ok if someone cannot be completely objective of possibility of something unseen, it’s their prerogative .
Although I do have this to say, no other ” mythos” was more controversial or set as high a bar to live ones life than the teachings of Jesus in the ancient world Considering that women, children, rich, poor, king or popper was made equal in their faults and equal in their salvation .in a single life time of ones existence here. Count me wrong if you can, I like to learn!
Oh, Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz …
I see the religious nuts have tracked you down again on this article. The longer the comment and the louder the squealing, the closer they know you are to the truth. It’s the same behavior children exhibit when they don’t want to hear something. I used to watch people tremble, sweat, turn purple and blubber when Madalyn Murray O’Hair would give talks in Austin when I was at UT. Why they came if it was going to affect them so negatively, I don’t know. I find it amazing that people hang on to their delusions to the point of setting themselves up for a heart attack or stroke.
However, after reading hundreds of the most delusional, superstitious, paranoid and ignorant comments I’ve ever read over the past couple of days about the meteor that blew up over Russia, I have little surprise at the tenacity of religious memes and their effect on the emotional and mental development and disposition of adherents.
There’s a point of honor in the martial arts world (“honor”, a word that has become meaningless in today’s world) wherein if another martial artist has more knowledge, better skills, can simply kick your *ss or whatever, then honor demands that one let go of ego and honor that person and submit to learning from them. It seems to me, religious nuts, that Acharya has kicked your *sses. If you have a smidgen of honor, I recommend that you let go of your egos and submit to learning from her. You might actually awaken and find that the Universe and reality are much larger than your pinhole view of them.
Nonsense
Obviously you are extremely brainwashed. Did you ever read all those books about astrotheology and mythology by Acharya S, obviously you read none?! If you did your homework and read all that stuff of her and others you would not write such nonsense in your comment(s). You are just assuming all those things because of your conditioned brainwashing by church and your believe system. Jesus does not exist, no proof of it anywhere to be seen. An empty tomb does not proof anything let alone a raised Jesus. The bible does not qualify as proof either so forget about the bible when talking about proof. And who are you to know what God is or wants or does something in the universe ? Jesus helping Constantine in a battle (which is a evil thing) on the promise from Constantine to convert to Christianity ? OH what a laugh ! The biggest crap I ever heard ! I suggest to do some serious study before commenting on this forum, else go to christian forums, we do not fall for christian tricks !
I do not believe the stories told about [b]Jesus[/b] for the same reasons that I do not believe in the [b]Tooth Fairy[/b] or the [b]Easter Bunny[/b].
Of course – these words are not original to me – but – I think that
they do make a somewhat understandable reason for non-belief.
I think,,
Their just might be some hateful people, whatever troubles you , is everybody’s problem but yours huh? I couldn’t hardly believe for a minute that some people posting here have anyone’s interest at heart but their own? It’s almost enough to trouble me, there’s enough scientifically engineered and produced WMD’s to blow ourselves up many times over, but nothing on earth more destructive than fear of – peace
P.s. pray hard , if you read this, know that the martial code of honor is only a code of honor if rules are agreed upon by both parties unless your a total dude who thinks servants and serfs take their own lives for gazing at the emperor?( is that the kind of honor you speak of?) – former martial arts instructor and martial arts researcher . You sound too wound up for blood and as such people probably would not be able to contract a code of honor with you to simply ” learn from for being able to kick their ass”again – peace
Crucify them!
I think people who claim to be Jesus should be crucified. I mean if you insist on having a public fantasy life you should be willing to go all-out. 👿
Soo,,
You’d kill people or demand their death based on mental illness? You’re a douche. I may be rude and kinda a troll ,but, you kinda prove a stereotype – peace
Will the real Jesus please stand up.
One persons comment says, “I think people who claim to be Jesus should be crucified.”. Therefore, tough luck for the real Jesus when he says he is Jesus.
By the way, the Jesus code has been cracked.
God managed to place both proof of his existence, and proof of Jesus Christ’s existence within the Bible, and did so in such a clever yet simple and unique encoded manner.
To see this encoded proof, go to http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2a.htm
The click on the flashing words “[b]Watch / Listen[/b]”, and let the webpage take you on a webpage tour of such proof, and do so via automatic web page scrolling and audio coverage.
The “Jesus Christ” of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple “people” is no one. When the mythological and midrashic layers are removed, there remains no “historical” core to the onion.
So, no, there is no “proof” of Jesus’s existence within the Bible. What is proved therein is the falsity of the gospel story, which is clearly mythical.
Wow! I never knew there were so many who claimed to be Jesus.
Will the real Jesus please stand up? Oops, well I guess that’s not going to happen either.
George W. Bush suffered from religious delusion probably from alcohol abuse…throw in a bit of coke along with it. After all, he claims some god told him to invade Iraq and he did so.
As for Hitler, there is more to his story and that of Germany that can be discussed here. The nation of Germany has been used as a scapegoat for far too long.
However Acharya, I haven’t found anything in your essays concerning the carney barkers who infest the airwaves and live lavish lifestyles of the rich and famous posing as men of god.
I believe Christopher Hitchens said it best when on the death of Jerry Falwell, he labelled Falwell as an ugly little toad. The same goes for the rest of those frauds and charlatans.
I too have a brother named James.
http://www.absentmindedguru.blogspot.com