• February 26, 2024

Camels in the Bible prove its late composition?

Camels_at_GizaThe media are making much ado about the recently released “findings” proving that the discussion of camels in several biblical books represents an anachronism, demonstrating that these books were written much later than they are pretended to have been.

In other words, the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible) – which tradition holds was written by Moses in the 13th or so century BCE (“before the common era”) – could not have been composed until many centuries later, because it discusses “camels” (e.g., Gen 37:25), when in fact, it is claimed, camels were not used in the Near East until the 10th century BCE at the earliest.

It’s great that this “news” is hitting the mainstream, but it is not really “news” after all, because this anachronism has been known for many decades. I included it in my Moses book many moons ago, in fact.

As but one example, in The Bible Unearthed (37) – originally published in 2001 – Israeli archaeologist Dr. Israel Finkelstein and science writer Neil Silberman write:

We now know through archaeological research that camels were not domesticated as beasts of burden earlier than the late second millennium and were not widely used in that capacity in the ancient Near East until well after 1000 BCE.

A rebuttal to this contention of anachronism includes the following:

Evidence discovered so far includes a mention of a Camel in a list of domesticated animals during the Old Babylonian period (1950-1600 BC) in a Sumerian Lexical Text from Ugarit; reference to camel’s milk in another Old Babylonian text. Pierre Montet found a 2nd millennium stone container in the form of a camel in Egypt. Parrot uncovered a picture of the hindquarters of a camel on a jar at Mari, also c.2 000 BC, and camel bones dating from the pre-Sargonid era (c.2400 BC). Wiseman asserts by the 3rd millennium BC camels were in use, together with donkeys, as slow moving beasts of burden, but were not domesticated on a large scale until c.1500-1250 BC. Harrison, Kitchen and Yamauchi cite further examples. Day et al. conclude that there is now no necessity to regard the patriarchal references to camels as anachronisms.

The claim is not being made that there were no camels on Earth previous to the first millennium BCE, as the earliest known type existed some 40 to 50 million years in North America, where it became extinct 10 to 12,000 years ago. Nor is it being denied that camels evidently were in domestic use in Arabia as early as 4,000 years ago.

It is maintained, however, by Old Testament scholar Dr. John van Seters in Abraham in History and Tradition that “only with the first millennium B.C. was the camel fully domesticated as a riding and burden-carrying animal.”

The original press release specifies that camel bones appear to have been introduced suddenly into the relevant biblical areas during the 10th century BCE:

The researchers scoured ancient copper production sites in the Aravah Valley, where camel bones were only present in sites active in the last third of the 10 century and the 9th century BCE. Sapir-Hen and Ben-Yosef write in their report:

“[The camel bones] demonstrate a sudden appearance of camels at the site, following a major change in the organization of production in the entire region.”

As The Times of Israel states:

Camels were first introduced to Israel around the 9th century BCE, centuries after they were depicted in the Bible as Patriarch-era pack animals, new carbon dating of the earliest known domesticated camel bones found in Israel shows.

The research, conducted by Erez Ben-Yosef and Lidar Sapir-Hen of Tel-Aviv University, challenges ”the Bible’s historicity.” The discrepancy “is direct proof that the [Biblical] text was compiled well after the events it describes,” according to a statement released by the university on Monday.

The researchers examined ancient copper smelting sites in the Arava Valley, in southern Israel, and discovered that “camel bones were unearthed almost exclusively in archaeological layers dating from the last third of the 10th century BCE or later,” and that “all the sites active in the 9th century in the Arava Valley had camel bones, but none of the sites that were active earlier contained them.”…

The more precise dating puts domesticated camels in Israel “centuries after the patriarchs lived and decades after the Kingdom of David,” according to the researchers.

Camels are believed to have been domesticated as pack animals around 2000 BCE in the Arabian peninsula.

However, they were likely introduced to Israel by the Egyptians, who according to ancient Egyptian and Biblical sources conquered the area at around the same time as the first camels arrived in Israel, according to the research.

Since camels evidently were domesticated in Arabia by the 20th century BCE, when most scholars place Abraham’s supposed time, and if the patriarch had packs of these beasts of burden (Gen 24), it would seem inexplicable that they were never used again after he allegedly arrived in Israel and that the camel bones discovered there would date only from a thousand years later.

In any event, there are many more instances that disprove the Bible as “history,” quite a few of which I present in my books, including my forthcoming Did Moses Exist?

Further Reading

Archaeologists: Carbon-dated camel bones contradict biblical accounts
Camel archaeology contradicts the Bible
Archaeologists Carbon-Date Camel Bones, Discover Major Discrepancy In Bible Story
Archaeology & the Patriarchs
Abraham’s Camels


48 thoughts on “Camels in the Bible prove its late composition?

  1. Maybe this so-called revelation by media is actually a release-on-purpose of information that is intended to keep pushing the Bible-believing masses toward accepting the coming changes that Pope Francis and his Jesuits have in store.

  2. More and more evidence challenging the veracity of the bible. How readers can believe in the story of Noah’s ark is evidence enough that you can fool a lot of people for a very long time. These are the same folks who spout verses from the new testament but fail to live up to even the basics standards of decency.

  3. Oh, Lord, something else for the young earth creationists to disagree with. And, I guess they still haven’t found the saddle that Jesus rode the dinosaur with, huh?

    1. Hi
      Don’t you know that Jesus road the donkey bareback? He is the SON OF GOD he don’t need no saddle. So if he road a dinosaur what type of dinosaur would Jesus ride- a T-REX no doubt. LOL

  4. I like to Thanx evryone, making the “Free Thought Nation” possible, Secrete Society and Amazon Included..U guys brought enlightment to my Soul, keep up the true work.

  5. I do not believe this at all as there is no reason for anyone to show that the 5 bible books are not so old. No one gains anything out of it including Moses.
    The main point is that Bible and Koran provide reasoning for all difficult questions which on one person could percieve. So many times I thought of things how can they be justified by God – and you sure enough from the Koran or Bible I get an extremely specific answer in first tense of God as though God thought in advance someone could ask this. It is beyond human capability

    1. Indeed, Khan. What bothers me, though, is how the Bible explains illness and epidemic as God’s punishment for “sin” and disobedience, yet now, we realize that illness and epidemic are caused mostly by microscopic beasties – that’s the “germ theory of infection” – and we’ve figured out what chemical compounds we can use to get rid of them! And it works, whereas prayer, fasting, humiliation – the typical clerical “prescriptions” for illness of all kinds, particularly catastrophic (see the cholera epidemics of the 1800s), do precisely *nothing*. There’s a question – why the Bible claims illness is God’s wrath, but now, we can cure it without any need for God. Can you figure out God’s answer to that for me? Because it’s apparently beyond human capability that God could get something so basic so very, catastrophically wrong. Also, no mention of boiling drinking water anywhere in the Bible – that would have been probably the kindest “Law” God could possibly have given his Chosen People. Or ANY people, for that matter.

    2. The facts are clear enough, and your belief in them is unnecessary. The fact remains that the Old Testament books are NOT as old as they are pretended to be. Other than some oral traditions, poems, songs and so on from the early first millennium BCE, the OT books were composed largely between the sixth and second centuries BCE. Those are the facts, and, again, your belief is irrelevant.

      The facts also point to Moses as a fictional compilation of characters, not a real person. See my book Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver. This fact alone disproves the Bible and Koran as “history” books. They are not.

      The Bible is not at all mystifying or impressive to those of us who have studied the subject in depth, using primary sources from antiquity, and God is not necessary in the equation at all. The Bible was easily written by humans compiling older texts from their own tribal folklore as well as the writings of other Semites such as the Babylonians and Canaanites, along with Egyptian and Greek mythology.

      Again, no god is necessary at all, unless God was needed to write all these other texts as well. So, the Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek and Canaanite religion and myths were also divine revelation?

      The Quran/Koran is a reworking of ancient texts as well, including the Bible. Again, no god is necessary. Considering how full of hate speech is the Koran, no god would be pleased with its attribution. Ditto with the Bible, full of violence and depravity – any “god” responsible for these archaic and barbaric texts is no god at all.

      1. Archara S wrote:
        “This fact alone disproves the Bible and Koran as “history” books. They are not.

        The Bible is not at all mystifying or impressive to those of us who have studied the subject in depth, using primary sources from antiquity, and God is not necessary in the equation at all.”

        my answer/re your comment:
        If you,A.S. really do believe that the Bible ‘is not at all mystifying or impressive” to you after ‘studying the subject in depth”,as you state in your comment,well,.. what could one say but be forced to suspect that in fact,that the required Consciousness level or the necessary initiation process into the mysteries of the Bible must be absent in your current base of knowledge?

        In plain language you seem to be missing vital reference points from which you could effectively try to critique the Bible or even the Koran or any other spiritual book of the great religions of the world.

        You many not find the Bible ‘mystifying” as u state here, but to those who understand mystery or in fact have proved the very “mystery” it teaches, to themselves via personal direct experience of its truth,the Bible is truly one fantastic work of Spiritual Mystery.
        The Bible indeed was initially only written for mystery school initiates and not for the lay reader who will not understand its complex symbolism by choosing or attempting to read it in a literal way.
        Therefore,..without the required raised Consciousness and /or initiation in esoteric knowledge, you nor anyone could hope to possibly know anything about the very important spiritual message that is veiled within the Scriptures of the Bible.
        “One who examines the Bible must take the scriptures for what they say themselves, that they are not to be read in a literal way.
        So therefore,…please make a note:
        You are only re-stating the same thing that the Bible itself openly admits and states,ie.that it is not claiming to be a historical document.
        (I gather you should already know the respective scriptures within the Bible that state thus,since u claim to already studied the subject ‘in depth”?)

        The Bible is a great work of Mystery.The Mystery called in Bible language ..” mystery of the Christ within us all” or ‘the Kingdom of God within us”

        It would seem that the original movement from which orthodox Christianity sprang was in fact not orthodox at all.As for Christianity, the original movement built around the Christ was in fact the mystical Christ that is birthed within us through the process of higher consciousness.
        This is the great mystery one needs to focus on when discussing anything about the Bible.

        So..really,I would rather give you the benefit of the doubt,that you repeatedly preach this sort of untrue messages about the Bible and even the Koran as being violent etc etc.. only because you really do not have the necessary qualification to interpret these immensely marvelous but necessarily complex and esoterically hidden meanings of these gigantic spiritual works,…therefore you remain so far in your persistent but erroneous valuation of the Biblical scriptures?
        I emphasize:
        Bible itself in fact states that it is not to be taken ‘literally’ but as an allegory and parable that teaches deep spiritual wisdom to those who may take the trouble to decode its exhoteric stories deliberately veiling underlying spiritual message from those ‘who are termed ‘profane”.
        You and you and even your loyal followers and readers need to know this truth henceforth,the Bible was ‘sculpted” by the mystics of old in complicated esoterically hidden allegories and parable that make heavy use of the language of symbolism.
        In conclusion then,that biblical scriptures are not written for young souls nor old fools.
        The Scriptures only give up their “pearls of wisdom” to only those that are worthy of their secrets.
        As Apostle Paul put it,scripture esoteric/ hidden meaning only is available to to those who are ready and able to eat spiritual meat vs just drinking milk.
        This means,that the Biblical Scriptures require one to have a certain level of Consciousness and even intelligence in order to understand their true, hidden but vital spiritual message.
        Spiritual babes,as Apostle Paul warned,necessarily would have to drink only spiritual “milk”,until they can be fed with strong ‘meat”.
        You or anyone of us then may ‘eat spiritual meat” only upon reaching spiritual maturity and not a minute before.
        Could this be perhaps the problem as to why you did not find the Bible at all “mystifying”? That statement of yours is indeed “mystifying to me .

        However,be that as it may,you or anyone here which doubts the value of the Biblical scriptures is invited to test the Bible for him/herself.In order to do so,one must be prepared to tread the very intricate spiritual path outlined within its scriptures.
        Until you or one does so, necessarily you neither anyone else for that matter,would dare to state that they hold the necessary qualification to make any truthful unbiased and knowledgeable comments about the Bible,or any other Scriptures of any of the great world religions including the Koran.This is a fair and objective statement imo.

        The Bible invites you and all to test the validity of its spiritual message.
        You do so by willing to tread the spiritual path outlined in the Bible.Until you are willing or have done so as a first method to test the Biblical scriptures, all messages and comments you keep writing about the Bible and its Scriptures, would be indeed untrue and stand on nothing more than pure conjecture.
        Such message thereby would be utterly useless to say the very least.

        The Kingdom of God is within you ..Christ in you your hope of Glory..this is the message of the gospels of the Christ and Bibles’ central message. If one does not understand this basic message,all
        other comments and such are purely nothing more than hot air that no one who loves the truth can and should take seriously.
        Camels in Bible? what difference does it really make if we don’t read Bible in a literal way? remember Bible is not an history Book.

        1. What I stated was clear enough. The Bible is not mysterious or mystifying. It is perfectly comprehensible as a manmade artifact, if you actually study it in depth and know what you are looking at. That comprehension also requires intelligence that may be well above that of the average 100 IQ, but it can be broken down to be understood quite sufficiently and does not require any kind of “divine” knowledge whatsoever.

          The Bible was written by men, many of whom do not seem to have had intelligence much above the average. Those who possess higher intelligence do not find it mysterious, mystifying or difficult to comprehend.

          In this same regard, the average concept of “God” is also rather primitive and easy to understand. Some of the more enlightened cosmological ideas from Buddhist and Greek sages may be a bit difficult to comprehend for some.

          I’m obviously quite well aware that the Bible is not history book, as I stated that fact in my previous post. In reality and again, it is a very easy to comprehend book of myths in significant part. The key to comprehending it is to study the religions and myths of other cultures, which the Bible’s composers emulated in significant part. These systems are largely astrotheological and resolve themselves to nature worship. Again, not difficult for those who know what they are looking at.

          The Kingdom of God is within you ..Christ in you your hope of Glory..

          That is simplistic dogma, repeated without comprehension of what the “kingdom of God” and “Christ” actually represent. I disagree with this meaningless mystical mumbo-jumbo. One who is “christed,” in fact, will comprehend the Bible quite easily as in the manner I’ve stated above.

          Could this be perhaps the problem as to why you did not find the Bible at all “mystifying”? That statement of yours is indeed “mystifying to me .

          My comprehension is not a “problem.” I have a 150+ IQ and a great deal of erudition – for this reason, the Bible is not at all mystifying, because I actually understand it quite readily. The continued mystification on your part is your own lack of comprehension, apparently.

        2. Genet, I trust you take the same position and attitude against mainstream christianity which, to my understanding, does indeed take the bible literally, presenting it as a god-inspired history book (albeit with a spiritual message). It seems you might even make good use of Acharya’s efforts to provide scholarly proof of the sillyness of a literal reading of its stories in order to raise the consciousness/increase the intlelligence of its readers so that they might appreciate the spiritual teachings to which you refer.

        3. The vast majority of protestant Christian believers have been schooled in the literal and historical view of scripture. To say that it wasn’t meant to be taken literally is not consistent with the truth. I’m not saying there aren’t ANY churches that believe in the mystical view of scripture but from my 3 decades of searching for the truth I’d have to say that they are outnumbered overwhelmingly by literalists. I can’t speak for Catholics but most I know believe the Bible to be settled history as well.

      2. While the first five books of the bible may not be as old as it claims to be, or may not even be the work of Moses, to say that it contains no history is in my view nonsense. The position of either it is history or not history is faulty logic. All history in my experience, including modern history, is a mixture of facts and fantasy. The question is sorting out which is which. The idea that the bible may contain history and myth simultaneously is not a difficult idea the grasp. The people who are wrong are those who are telling us that it has to be either one or the other, either history or myth. That history may contain myth and myth may contain history is the best position to adopt

        1. Thanks. The Pentateuch assuredly was not written by a “historical” Moses and is not as old as it is claimed to be.

          No one is saying there is no history in the Bible as a whole, so there is no “faulty logic” or “nonsense” here. However, much of the Pentateuch definitely is not history. What we are doing here is precisely to sort out which is which.

          The mythology is actually far more interesting than the history, real or fabricated. The myths retain a lineage that dates back many thousands of years, as can be found in the Greek, Canaanite, Ugaritic, Assyrian, Akkadian, Eblaite, Sumerian and Egyptian texts. These texts themselves reveal that there is not nearly as much history in the Bible – and especially in the Pentateuch – as is believed widely. Pointing out that fact with as much data as is possible is a highly important endeavor.

    3. Wow! Right over your head what?

      Let’s make this simple for the simple. All belief is foolish, and unnessary, and retards thinking and perceiving.
      No one in their right mind would think the bible is an accurate historical account let alone the work of some god.

      1. All belief is foolish? I believe that when I insert the gas filler hose into my gas tank that I am getting gasoline and not buttermilk. Actually, I am exercising faith having believed without seeing. I believe that the earth is round based upon the knowledge that Izhave been able to accumulate using my five senses. All belief is foolish? What a goober!

    1. Thank you for the example of Islamic insult jihad:

      “The honour of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs [infidels]. One who respects the kafirs dishonours the Muslims…”

      Despite your derogatory remark, the facts in the original article will remain the same. See also my other response to you.

      “Freethought” actually requires intelligence and thinking for one’s self, rather than believing blindly in nonsense spoonfed by other deluded individuals.

      1. “Freethought” actually requires intelligence and thinking for one’s self, rather than believing blindly in nonsense spoonfed by other deluded individuals.

        So very true!!! In fact, all the scriptures of all the organized religions of the world are untrue, to start with, and they have all been further distorted. But the gullible masses are made to believe that it is THE GOD’S words. The aim of Religion is to foist fear on us and also to keep humanity away from the Divine which is inside all of us. Religion asks us to obey the external God and deny the true God inside. This is true of Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Jews, etc.

        These organized religions have been successful in making an human being kill another human being in his god’s name. The irony is, they claim their god is merciful, compassionate and all loving.

        The time has come in human evolution to come out of religion and seek the true God that we all are.

  6. There is an even simpler explanation….. One only have to ask ONE question:
    • Who wrote the bible — both the old and new part?
    Answer: The Hebrews. Or as they prefer to call themselves; the Chosen ones.
    They are the best storytellers.

    Just look at all the films/movies they produce in Hollywood. (Yes, the Chosen ones owns Hollywood and all the known film producing companies — easy to check on Google or Wikipedia, which they also own, by the way… 😉
    Who are writing all the famous books, the block busters?
    Who wins the Nobel prize in literature almost every year?
    The Chosen ones are just the best storytellers — ever. And the Bible are just one of their biggest hits ever — and very hard to beat….. 😉

    Sorry for being so blunt, but The Bible is just another fairy tale…….

  7. “…coming changes that Pope Francis and his Jesuits have in store.”

    If this is something other than nwo’s standardization protocols of just about everything, please elaborate.

    Tho it is Slightly off topic, can anyone link me to some “bible code” sanity? I’ve before read of the problems therein but still consider the possibility (seeing we can see faces in clouds).
    Curiously, some well known (this alone may be suspect!) ND found that the line Crown of Thorns (Mat) lead him to discover that the herb crown of thorns, which I’ve never heard of before, is able to cure major degenerative diseases. There’s actually a slew of similar item here. That was Mark Stengler or something.

    1. My feeling is that as scholarly, brilliant Jesuits, they are no doubt completely aware that the Bible is no more than a compilation of myths,journals passed down through the ages, rewritten again and the greatest story ever sold.Keeping the masses of believers within the power of the richest and most powerful empire in the world..the holy roman empire. It would be lovely if all these wary fairy tales of heaven and angels were true..alas…however there is no loving god who could in the old testament part the red sea for the protection of the his chosen people..but choose not to exert his power, and intervene over the travesties that have beset the human race. Ethnic cleansing,innocent people,children.by the millions dying begging a god of mercy to help them. Good for you if you can give your allegiance to this type of belief system. Whatever makes a person happy is the path one must follow…

    2. I wrote a reply last night but it did not get posted regarding the Jesuits and their probable knowledge that there is little or no basis for the biblical accounts of historical event or the life of Jesus. It stuns and amazes me how intelligent people can continually justify a God turning a blind eye to the cruelty and inhumanity of mankind.

  8. Snakes that talk in the Garden.//books at a time when they hadn’t been started yet.//(not ’till the Christian era). Jesus prophecy at birth to receive David’s throne when it had been non~existent for some 400 year.// Old Testament statements by Yahweh that there were no other Gods but him.// No saviors either.//Leviticus gives method of Atonement Sacrifice in the Temple only WITH THE HIGH~PRIEST OFFICIATING ON AN ALTER OF UN~HEWN STONES. NOT MAN~MADE LIKE A CROSS.// MEAT TO BE BURNED AND PARTS CONSUMED. NOT DONE WITH JESUS.

    1. Hey, c’mon, elton! Why do you suppose Jesus’s tomb was empty following Passover?? The disciples ate him up and burned the rest just as with any Passover lamb!! That’s the problem with pulling random verses about the Passover lamb out of context (“and not a bone of him was broken”) when that passage is all about how to prepare and eat the Passover lamb. In John 6, Jesus goes into grotesque detail about how everyone is supposed to “EAT ME!!”

    1. Patrice, look up “Hermann Detering Synoptic Apocalypse.” It’s a paper about how the details of the Synoptic Apocalypse fit the details of the Bar Kochba Revolt far more closely than the details of the Great Jewish War. That puts the Gospels, at the very least, well into the 2nd Century CE. And of course the Gospel writers were using names and personages out of Paul’s writings to people their own narratives, because how else would all these people mentioned in Paul have *no* idea about any of Jesus’s teachings or miracles or anything? What we call “Paul” is fairly early (and it’s only, like, 7 books tops); everything else is late – end of 1st Century CE and beyond.

  9. The recent tempest in a teapot about the late documentation of camels is indeed not any new revelation but on the other hand, it also proves nothing about the dates when the various books of the Bible were written, or when camels were first domesticated. Absence of evidence for their prior use is not evidence of their absence, and it is a fallacy to jump on those recent headlines as proving anything. If Abraham is said to have used camels as pack animals, it makes more sense to question whether Abraham ever existed or is a composite fairytale figure. Save your ammunition until you see the white of their eyes, instead of wasting credibility on trying to prove a negative from the lack of older camel bones, at least so far.

    1. Thanks. No one is “wasting credibility” by pointing out that domesticated camels in Israel by the time of Abraham’s purported era is an anachronism that demonstrates the Bible was written long after the purported events. This sort of scientific analysis is completely germane to the case of showing that the Bible is full of legend, folklore, fairytales and myths. Nor is it a “fallacy” to report news that adds to Bible criticism, news that in fact confirms what we have been contending for years and for which we have been given a great deal of grief.

      As a related aside, Abraham is most likely a fictional compilation of characters. The debate is framed best in those terms, not “whether or not Abraham existed.” He existed – as a mythical figure.

  10. “The discrepancy “is direct proof that the [Biblical] text was compiled well after the events it describes,” according to a statement released by the university on Monday.”

    > These people are still delusional. The events described in the Bible did not occur, no matter when they supposedly took place. Historical narratives do not contain dialog, people all talking to each other in complete sentences. Only fictive narratives contain dialog. This is something people should have figured out by the third or fourth grade for crying out loud. The Bible fails every test for historicity their is and passes all the test for fiction with flying colors. I remember a parallel to the Abraham story in another culture set in about the same time period. I don’t remember if there were any camels in it.

  11. It is what it is; not what you think it is.
    That happens to be a good thing 🙂

    “Try to imagine that the people around you, the
    entire universe, are all your qualities projected into your consciousness. It only appears to us that something exists on the outside. In fact, as we correct ourselves, we begin to perceive that all of these are our own qualities, which exist within us. People, animals, plants, planets, the entire world, and the entire universe; Everything exists within us.
    The moment we attain this, we are left one-on-one with
    the Creator, and we understand that nothing exists but we and the Creator.”

    “The Secrets of the Eternal Book reveals how to properly read the Pentateuch, how to break through the outer shells; the mundane actions of this world that the book seems to recount and discover what really stands behind it all.”

    “The Secrets of the Eternal Book”

  12. We are not able to find truth in the Bible. Rather the opposite. Already the first words: “In the Beginning there was the Word”, was a lie !
    The purpose of it is, that we should trust the writings by people who want to control us. Bible should have started with: “In the beginning there was light!” Meaning our Sun, the real aspect of the so called GOD.

  13. In the 20th century Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer was the famous Hollywood movie maker and it was Jewish owned. It was referred to as MGM and it was the great story teller of the 20th century.

    Way back around 1000 BC, Jewish novelists wrote a story called the Old Testament about a guy they called Moses (M).

    By about 340 AD, other novelists officially concluded their own story called the New Testament about God (G).

    In 610 AD, a famous story from God was revealed to and written by Muhammad (M).

    These three famous stories about Moses, God and Muhammad – MGM – became big sellers and may have been the success incentive for the MGM movie makers of Hollywood’s day.

    The key words are the center words: God and Goldwyn.

    God, the Almighty. And Gold, the Almighty, makes whomever has it wyn.

    Or should I have said:

    God, the Almighty, and Gold, the Almighty, makes whomever has it wyn.

  14. Kabbalah isn’t the end all either, especially the bnei baruch school’s version…

    Acharya tells it straight whenever she reiterates the fact that in essence, all this ilk of literature is just that. And or rather, that it is mostly predicated on prior works. Rehash and elaboration or accretion upon (erroneous) accretion (according to vested interest). Not revelation.

    Of course, they then say it’s an unfolding or evolving revelation. Nice try. I like Lloyd Graham’s idea that these particular trains of thought mostly originated from the Original Creation Myths. That most subsequent ideas/works (I’ll add both inside and outside of religion) were based upon those very first myths.

    Still curious about bible codes however. Someone needs to find something similar in say Mein Kamph (first edition)!

    Another issue is that folks are finding that so much of history, overall, needs serious revision. I’ve read that the Dark Ages were in now way as described. That phrase was a gloss to cover up all the willful manipulations and or deceptions at that time.

    There was something odd about Bronze Age dating also. That the time window that this was placed; before certain of these metals was discovered (or utilized) to even make bronze!


  16. For those who insist that god or the Bible is real here is proof positive that he does not exist, here is my prayer to your all powerful god:

    god if you are real and all powerful smite me now, right this minute, for I am puny and you are great, but do it now, not in five minutes, not in two but now.

  17. Still here, even gave him some extra time. Hah! I’ll continue to be here until nature says otherwise and not some “omnipotent” being in someone’s religious imagination.

  18. Even when I was believer, I could not follow the “mystery” angle to Catholicism, Christianity and other religions. About the time I accepted that I was an atheist, I began hearing about Kabala. In my view, Kabala, as well as the Pentecostal, Charismatic (in the Catholic religion), and other mysticism movements, prey upon their followers’ guilt, fear and gullibility to a degree even greater than does traditional religion. I do not look to the Bible for wisdom, edification or truth. I prefer logic, science and reason.

  19. For the sake of appearing ignorant, I would like to ask a question regarding the history of Rome and what was depicted in the bible with regards to Jesus being brought to Pontus Pilot as a troublesome Jewish Rabbi to be sentenced to crucifixion. Was this ever a real event that was recorded in any writings other than the bible? My other question regarding the ritual of eating the body and blood of Christ.
    It’s so cannibalistic and always seemed such a strange command to “do this in remembrance of me”. Thank you for this forum. I truly appreciate and look forward to all the interesting replies and insights. Nr

    1. No, there is no credible, scientific evidence for such an occurrence. In reality, the scene is a drama, as in play, based on a much older concept of human sacrifice: the sacred king sacrificial ritual practiced in countless places around the Mediterranean and beyond, as in India.

      I discuss these subjects of human sacrifice and ritualistic cannibalism in my book Suns of God and elsewhere.

      The eating of a god or his proxy is called “theophagy,” and it too has been practiced in numerous places and eras around the world.

      Suns of God image

  20. Acharya S, I enjoyed the article, but my favorite read are your replies. You don’t have to remind me not to argue with you. Thanks for your great work.

    1. Thanks for your kind regards! By engaging with people, I can provide further insight but I can also set an example of how to defend against invective and bullying!

      Don’t worry – I’m actually quite nice most of the time. Unless poked with a stick… 🙂

  21. Spirituality and Faith in God:

    God, I have tried to be a spiritual man and to have faith,
    You have forsaken me. Man has created you in His image, which gives him dominance over everything else- birds, plants, fishes and beasts.
    God- you are nothing but a myth. The Greeks, Romans, Norseman, Egyptians, Babylonians, Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, and many other ancient civilizations created many gods for everything, because they could not figure out or understand why the sun rose and set, why the sea, why the sky, why the earth, why love, why life, why death? We have created you to appease and feed our fears and ignorance. We have so many questions and so few answers. I have used you in my prayers to forgive myself for my sins. I now know the sins are mine. I earned them; they belong to me and at my life’s end… I will take them with me.
    What I have witnessed, experienced and learned in the course of my life has made me question the existence of…God.
    Because of the “Truth”, in Spirituality, Faith and God,
    I now refuse to believe in or to be a victim of the theology, legends, stories, tales, fantasies, superstitions, philosophy, psychology, worship, books, tablets, inscriptions, etchings, papers, parchments, scrolls, charms, amulets, trinkets, symbols, talisman, idols, icons, relics, customs, ceremonies, traditions, rituals, spells, incantations, curses, miracles, magic, mysticism, spiritualism, folklore, mythology, supernatural, extraterrestrial, or paranormal phenomena.
    Because of the immorality, deception, corruptions, coercions, conflicts, scandals, feuds, fiefdoms, fallacies, contradictions, extortions, idiocy, indecency, hypocrisy, lies, inconsistencies, controversies, the pompous self-righteous, fanatical, perverted, deviate behaviors, pious, prejudice, closed minded, bigotry, arrogance and interpretations from any religion, denomination, organization, sect, cult or deity.
    In “Truth,”
    When I die, I shall rot and nothing will be left of me.
    “Earth to earth, ashes to ashes and dust to dust”.
    I want to be proven wrong, because if I am wrong, I will still win:
    “Faith is needed in something that can’t be proven or its process cannot be seen”
    Faith and God: It’s an ingenious hypothesis–yet to be proved.

    David R. Carpenter

  22. I’m not always convinced by “hard science”, as even widely accepted scientific facts should be regarded with skepticism, lest we fall prey to elitism and dogma. Individual studies, on their own, can be used to back-up anecdotal claims, but as with anything, I would take the apparent dating of the mining sites (ih the article) with a grain of salt. Much more difficult to reconcile is the biblical claims – such things as miracles, and the ancient Hebrews’ adoption of peculiar laws that they insist were handed down “by God”. To me, at least, the explanation of the physical world being attributed to divine intervention is enough to prove that the bible is a work of fiction and/or myth. Just proving that a study was scientifically inaccurate wouldn’t be enough to sway my opinion that ordinary men penned the Bible – not a deity.

  23. Brethren;Eat ye the meat and throw away the bones……….as long as the meat has no MSG !OH;the meat is the hard evidence……the bones are for camel fertilizer

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