Bible manuscripts a mass of variations

In my book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, published in 1999, I included a discussion of the hundreds of thousands of “variations” in the various Bible manuscripts dating to the earliest presently in existence. This fact has been known since the 18th and 19th centuries. It’s good modern scholarship is finally catching up to this older scholarship and proving it again.

In my book, I quote older scholars, such as Joseph Wheless, in Forgery in Christianity (174):

The so-called “canonical” books of the New Testament, as of the Old, are a mass of contradictions and confusions of text, to the present estimate of 150,000 and more “variant readings,” as is well known and admitted.

I also quoted Charles Waite, author of Christian History to the Year Two Hundred (213):

Of the 150,000 variant readings which Griesbach found in the manuscripts of the New Testament, probably 149,500 were additions and interpolations.

In my follow-up book Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled (407-8), I wrote:

Besides the fact that they date to much later than is supposed, the gospels frequently contradict each other, and, based on the numerous manuscripts composed over the centuries, have been determined (by German theologian Johann Griesbach, for one) to be a mass of some 150,000 “variant readings.” In this regard, The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, a Christian book, contains an article written by M.M. Parvis (vol. 4, 594-5), who states:

The New Testament is now known, in whole or in part, in nearly five thousand Greek manuscripts alone. Every one of these handwritten copies differ from the other one… It has been estimated that these manuscripts and quotations differ among themselves between 150,000 and 250,000 times. The actual figure is, perhaps, much higher. A study of 150 Greek manuscripts of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings… It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the New Testament in which the manuscripts’ tradition is wholly uniform.

Some sources place the figure for the “variant readings” even higher, including The Anchor Bible Dictionary On CD-ROM (“Textual Criticism, NT”), which says, “Perhaps 300,000 differing readings is a fair figure for the 20th century (K. W. Clark 1962: 669).”  So much for “God’s infallible Word” and his “inspired scribes.”

In my book Who Was Jesus? I further demonstrate that the gospels contradict one another, do not show up in the historical/literary record until well into the second century and were not written by those in whose name they appear.

How Bible Stories Evolved Over The Centuries

Many Christians believe that the words of the New Testament are set in stone. But scholars at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary are chronicling just how much those words have evolved over time.

For 11 years, they’ve combed through the earliest Greek manuscripts of each book in the New Testament and found more than 17,000 pages of variations. Their ultimate goal: the world’s first comprehensive, searchable online database showing how the New Testament has changed.

The database is already up. The first explanations go live this fall with two books of the New Testament — Philippians and First Peter.

Now, scholars have known about many of these variations for years, but some of the changes might surprise many Christians.

How Mark’s and John’s Stories Changed

Take the story of Christ’s resurrection. As the gospel of Mark tells it, on the third day after the crucifixion, Jesus rose from the tomb and appeared to various people, including his disciples.

But Bill Warren, the professor leading the project, tells weekends on All Things Considered host Guy Raz that in the original manuscripts for Mark, the story of Jesus visiting the disciples is nowhere to be found….

Change In The Name Of Clarification

Variations in the early Greek manuscripts may seem like a cause for alarm for many Bible literalists, but the majority of the discrepancies the project documents, Warren says, were caused by early transcribers doing their best to clarify the text.

“We actually have different qualities of copies among the manuscripts. Some are very careful not to change anything of what they’re copying, and some, probably more or less at the service of the church, are trying to clarify the text,” he explains. “And then, very early on, some of these scribes are just Christians who during the daytime have other jobs and they’re trying to make copies of the text. And so they don’t have the same sense of how to make a professional copy.”

74 Comments

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  1. Vedic Conclusion
    I think we should get away from different “readings” of the Bible and concentrate on the Truths of Spiritual Life. We are looking for the Truth which is near God, and not to discredit a book.

    I recomend the Vedic Conclusion in the line of Vedantic knowledge as a comparative study with the Bible. Then we will be able to acertain the Truth we are looking for. A good start would be the Bhagavad Gita by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

    Good luck everyone.

  2. what they leave out
    What critics like to leave out is the fact that **almost all** of these variations are meaningless. See:
    “Due to the New Testament Manuscripts being written by unofficial people as well as scribes, there were thousands of copies made and we have thousands of variations. This is different to the Old Testament because those copies were only copied by official scribes. To this date there are about 200,000 variations between New Testament manuscripts, there will possibly be more in the future as we find more manuscripts. There is an ambiguity in saying there are 200,000 variations in the manuscripts we have today because those variations only represent about 10,000 places in the New Testament. For example if one word is misspelled in 3,000 different manuscripts it is counted as 3,000 variations or readings. Once we understand how the variations are counted there is really not many variations at all.”

    1. The writer of this article did not leave out that fact, nor did I exclude it:

      [quote]Variations in the early Greek manuscripts may seem like a cause for alarm for many Bible literalists, but the majority of the discrepancies the project documents, Warren says, were caused by early transcribers doing their best to clarify the text.[/quote]
      The point is, of course, that most people do not know these facts, and that they should, so they can be informed and educated better. These facts have been known for many years; yet, they are omitted in the education of the “flock,” leaving them ignorant.

      Another important point is, why did the omnipotent and omniscient God of the cosmos go to all the trouble of coming to Earth, getting himself crucified, and inspiring the “inerrant” gospel originals, if he just couldn’t keep the texts protected from all the errors over the centuries by fallible scribes?

      1. “Another important point is, why did the omnipotent and omniscient God of the cosmos go to all the trouble of coming to Earth, getting himself crucified, and inspiring the “inerrant” gospel originals, if he just couldn’t keep the texts protected from all the errors over the centuries by fallible scribes?”

        NOT one single variant you can point to, will have ANY impact on the basic salvational issues of Christian Doctrine. EVERY Gospel shows clearly that Jesus was the Son of God, led a perfect life without sin, was crucified and died for our sins and rose again three days later. Also the instruction of how to come to God through Jesus and Jesus ALONE is crystal clear. EVERYTHING anyone needs for salvation has been perfectly protected throughout all of the ages, and through the hands of MILLIONS of men. He has accomplished what He set out to accomplish. When you can figure out how to form one single MOLECULE with but a thought, then maybe YOUR way will be better.

        1. That’s nice, but you didn’t answer the question, and the “Jesus Christ” of the New Testament remains a fictional compilation of characters, as does the giant male god in the sky of the Bible.

  3. This work’s already been done very well by Ehrman.
    Bart Ehrman has written two very well researched books about the contradicitons, omissions, falsifications, errors, and inconsistencies of the Bible, I recommend both books, [u]Misquoting Jesus[/u], and [u]Jesus, Interrupted[/u]. Google him and you’ll see he knows exactly what he’s talking about.

  4. Bible contradictions
    The bible was manipulated across century for political outcome also
    In Twenty first century should be only an academic discusion about it . Mixing God and the bible is an heresy
    The creator wil not by logic waste is time with a bunch of Camel Jockeys who has across time becoming a discusting bunch of pariats

  5. Itching Ears
    Your conclusions are based on skewed data, full of half-truths and falsehoods. They can be easily refuted.

    Your hatred of the Bible has caused you to be intellectually dishonest.

    1. Which “conclusions” would those be? You make no specifics whatsoever. Therefore, your own conclusions are “based on skewed data, full of half-truths and falsehoods,” including the claim that my work can be “easily refuted.”

      My analysis of the Bible is based on scholarship and science, and is quite intellectually HONEST.

      I “hate” the Bible because it is full of horrible violence, favors one group of people over others, encourages slavery and misogyny, and a whole slew of other insanities. As Isaac Asimov said, “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”

      Here are just a few of the lovely Bible quotes ([url]http://www.truthbeknown.com/judaismquotes.htm[/url]):

      “When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and [b]when the LORD your God gives it into your hand you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourseves[/b]; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you. Thus you shall do to all the cities which are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here. But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save nothing that breathes …” Deuteronomy 20:10-16

      Etc., ad nauseam.

      And the New Testament ([url]http://www.truthbeknown.com/christianscript.htm[/url]) isn’t much better:

      “Do you think I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.” Luke 12:51-53

      “Wives, be submissive to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.” Ephesians 5:21-24

      Ask yourself why you believe in this book and why you are going around angrily posting lies about people you don’t even know? What good has being a bibliolater done for you, if you behave in such an antisocial manner? Is this sort of behavior really what Jesus was all about?

      1. You know taking scripture out of context and you can make a book say anything you want. Why did you stop at verse 16. Why not go on and add Deut. 20:17

        Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
        Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

        Wouldn’t that even help your cause that much more? Of course, if you actually studied the Bible and really cared what was being said you would have taken the time to figure it out but it’s pretty easy to distort any work you want to distort… at least to the ignorant. You’d do yourself a favor to read E.W. Bullinger’s “The Companion Bible”. Now there’s a work worthy of the credit of scholarly study. In particular you might want to focus on Appendix 25 at the end dealing with the giants and nephilim.

        http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app25.html

        You see the OT takes on a whole new perception when you understand that there literally was a half breed walking the earth. God had made man in His image and the fallen angels had come to earth and created offspring that was not human. The Israelites were not haphazardly killing humans in the name of God. They were destroying these half breeds. That is a very important aspect to understand what is going on in the OT and even today. Satan, or fallen angels, continue today to want to change the DNA of humans and create something not human. You would also do yourself a favor to watch this. Satan’s plans never change.

        http://mikehoggard.com/video/the-mother-of-all-secrets/

        Stephen

        1. The “out of context” argument is often false and generally hackneyed, especially when it comes to biblical scriptures, which believers take “out of context” ALL the time.

          See this relevant video:

          CONTEXT!!!!! ([url]http://youtu.be/PK7P7uZFf5o[/url])

          And what exactly IS the proper context for the murderous thuggish behavior of Moses and his cult followers? The genocide of the Midianites and the kidnapping of their girls for sex slaves. What other context is there? You think all that’s a good thing?

          I’ve studied the Bible for decades, including cross-referencing it in the original languages, so your calumnious personal attack is erroneous and irrelevant.

      2. Try adding verse 17 to Deut 20.

        Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
        Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

        Now read Appendix 25 of “The Companion Bible”.

        http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app25.html

        Perception is everything. Without the right knowledge to give you understanding your are but lost in the dark. It was the Israelites assignment to destroy these half humans. They weren’t pillaging man in the name of God. They were cleansing the land of something evil and unGodly entirely.

        Satan never changes and is still up to the same thing today.

        http://mikehoggard.com/video/the-mother-of-all-secrets/

        Stephen

  6. Idolatry
    This confirms, once again, the idolatrous nature of Christianity, which is nothing more than worshiping the works and traditions of men.

    Imagine a Christian missionary encountering a pagan culture worshiping their god(s) by prostrating themselves before a totem pole. The horrified missionary-priest attempts to “correct” their error by reading abstract symbols from a book made of wood purported to be speaking for god.

    Riiiiight.

  7. That’s Just the Beginning!
    Did you know there were two different religions in ancient Judaism? Ever wonder how it is that the priests of King Josiah “discovered” the Pentautech while reconstructing the Temple of Solomon? No: they composed a new corpus of scripture uniting the two religions: one the worshipers of Jehovah, the other of Eloheim:
    http://articles.13gems.com/Spiritual/The_History_of_the_Old_Testament_In_Light_of_the_Facts.py
    While Jesus was indeed an enlightened being, He came to reform Judaism. It was the “apostle” Paul–known to the real apostles as “The Enemy”–who created Christianity to draw heat away from Israel and the Sanhedrin…the Zionists of Jesus’ day, whom he was avowed to overthrow:
    http://articles.13gems.com/Spiritual/The_Greatest_Scam_Of_All_Time.py
    If interested, read how all the great masters of all the world’s religions taught the same basic truths:
    http://bridge.13gems.com/
    Sincerely,
    Beno Candelón

  8. manuscripts
    THIS AUTHORS WRITING PROOF THAT WHAT HE WROTEIS A BUNCH OF GUESSES. HE STATES A STATEMENT AND REALLY CAN’T PROOF IT.
    HE IS USING AS REFERENCES MANUSCRIPTS THAT WERE WRIITEN BY A KNOSTIC NAMED ORIGEN. I HAVE READ THIS SAME GAS MANY TIMES BEFORE. WHEN HE MENTIONS THE ORIGINALS, HE IS LYING BECAUSE HE HAS NEVER SEEN THEMB BECAUSE THEY DON’T EXIST.
    ALL OF THE AUTHORS THAT HE MENTIONS WEREN’T CHRISTIANS. IT IS APPARENT THAT HE HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE. I HAVE THE BIBLE MORE THAN TWENTY TIMES AND THEY DON’T CONTRADICT. THERE ARE ARE FIVE HUNDRED PROPHESIES THAT MENTION THE BIRTH, DEARTH AND RESURRECTION OF JESUS.HIS BOOK IS FOR DUMMIES LIKE HIM.

  9. In A Nutshell
    Greetings, Acharya!

    Now let me make sure I have this straight:

    Around 700BC, Jews invent an external God then opt for self-worship never dreaming that minim, in turn, would invent a mythical Galilean peasant to make people believe the external God actually exists. At the Council of Jabneh in 80AD, in defense, the Jews (Pharisees) change their liturgy because the mythical peasant had become a threat to their existence. BUT, they make the colossal mistake of agreeing with the minim that they crucified the peasant. Consequently to correct this blunder, Jews infiltrate Christianity then help concoct Islam in 600AD to goad other Jews into fighting under the pretense of a Kingdom of God on Earth (New World Order) in defiance of the external God they created in the first place. Almost two thousand years pass since Jabneh and Acharya joins the fray by dedicating her life to pooh-poohing those who might believe the fictitious God and mythical peasant while apologizing for those who created Them.

    Okay. I think I got it.

    Regards,

    Larry

  10. OneWonders
    I was raised by a fanatical Christian mother. A mother who flips between loving saint and demonic. She always sends out Bible verses. I am a God loving person who prays, but I no longer believe in Christianity as preached in today’s churches. Most of their beliefs are based upon the Bible and the New Testament, a book largely written by a murdererer….Saul, who later changed his name to Paul. Did he really have a revelation on the road to Damascus, or did some of the relatives of the many “Christians” he had killed finally catch up with him and with a sword to his throat, he had a revelation and visitation by Jesus to save his ass? Who knows the real story. What I do know is the Bible is a book filled with Murder, Jealousy, Adultery, Branding slaves, having multiple wives, stupid laws, and degradation of women….all justified as ‘coming from God’. BS. My God is a loving God, not an angry, jealous, revengeful God. All religions need to die and go away. The only hope for mankind is when everyone finally gets a belly full of thieves in Public Places and in the Corporate arena, and all the killing they do in the name of Democracy or Religion, and people practice what Jesus REALLY taught….”Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you”…The Golden Rule…the only common tenet in ALL current religions.

  11. More Masonic Bull S**t
    Private Revelation through the centuries more than proves the existence and truth of Christ. This article is just another Judeo-Masonic attempt to downplay the unique mission and message of Christ. So sad the sheeple can’t see through your bulll crap as they are slaughtered in Zio War After Zio War. The J-Ms have taken your Churches, your nation, your economy, your educational system, your medical system, your entire world. Get it back through the Cross!

    1. The Truth of Christ?
      Private Revelation, he says . . .

      Listen. You are delusional. You are hearing things that are not there. You have seen things that are not real.

      Get help . . .

  12. My opinion, as I have said before, is that the same has to be done with the Quran as has been done with the Babble and other religious texts. If it isn’t, then specious arguments based on it will continue–this is not to say that valid arguments can’t be made on what they actually say, but I doubt the Muslims will be pleased by just what they would indisputably show!
    As for Christians, it is only in the benighted regions of the planet (yes I’m addressing you who are offended by Archarya’s words!) that these things are controversial. We in Satanic Yurp have known better since the time of my great great grandfather.

  13. One surprising difference, between Muslims and Christians, is how each treats it’s scripture. To a Muslim the writings themselves, the book itself is holy and sacred. If you were to toss a Koran into a toilet you might well be executed.
    Christians do not worship the writings of the Bible, we love the God of the Bible. ‘Inerrancy’ does not refer to the book, but rather to the teaching. If someone is offended by Christianity and destroys a Bible maliciously a true Christian would feel hurt, but continue to love the one who destroyed it and would pray for him and wish him well.
    That is because we could get along without a Bible, because God has sent his Holy Spirit into our hearts to teach us.
    We do consider the Bible the word of God, an unchanging God. Any confusion in translations, selection of the canon, etc. is in us, and not God.

  14. Wow! Variations in the text. Who knew. What a big secret! Sarcasm Off. Less than i/2 0f one percent of these variants affect the interpretation of the passage in which they are found. As for similarities betwen Jesus and other ” Savior cults I would only say This, If the early chapters of Gensis and the book of Job( generally considered the earliest of the books of the bible) have any historicity at all, Savior Cults are exactly what we would expect to find. The promise of the seed of the woman( Gen 3:15) The comming redeemer( Job 19:24-26)and the Apocalypse of Enoch quoted in Jude indicate that our ancestors were not left without some revelation as to the comming of the Messiah. These stories, of course degenerated overtime but many details still remained. Compared to the mythology of the day the gospel texts are not only well preserved but light years ahead in terms of quality.
    As for causing alarm to certain fundementalists, that proves nothing.
    This article reminds me of wht C.S Lewis complained of, you draw up the straw man of a Christianity not even beliveable by a five year old child instead af as it is really believed by a mature Christian adult.

  15. Philology
    The race between piety and knowledge is always fraught with moral hazards and threats to established political power. In one sense, holding fast to tradition allowed the Western mind with training wheels to create an entire field of knowledge called textual criticism. And yes, I do think this is nothing short of a miracle given where these people began. Secondly, that European Xtian ideology survived textual criticism relatively intact is a minor mircle as well, but this miracle we can attribute more or less to universal stupidity.

    1. I agree as far as you go, but that is not far enough.

      Consider, the textual criticism you speak of grew out of the rediscovery of the Classical world–not the Christian. It was only when it was later applied to the latter that it caused any fuss, though intelligent folk of the time merely had their suspicions confirmed. Even so, your view is also too parochial. Textual criticism was invented during the early Han dynasty in China; in reality, the most you can say is that we re-invented it.

      Also, the idea that the European Christian ideology “survives” is only applicable outside of post-religious Europe: I assure you, in the common mind, there is little difference between a Christian and a potentially dangerous eccentric (I am being polite; the terminology is usually much ruder). Christians, in fact, are usually held in contempt.

      Finally, the real miracle is that we have managed to rebuild and surpass the civilization that the Christians destroyed, despite the Dark Age that they caused.

  16. [quote]This writer won’t go near Judiasm, which likes to celebrate the slaughter of its perceived enemies, Hindi, with its multi-armed or animal headed gods, or the Gi’itchi Manitou of the North American Indians with the turtle and raven thing. All I see is a one trick pony.[/quote]
    It might be a good idea to actually know about a subject before making fallacious commentary about it.

    In this case, the subject you don’t know is my work, which you have utterly misrepresented. Even one brief glance here will demonstrate that I also “pick on” Islam quite substantially, because Islam is the worst ideology at the moment. It is only the worst at the moment, however, [i]because [/i]people have been “picking on” Christianity for the past couple of centuries, so that we can live without fear of a Christian Inquisition – for now.

    As concerns “Judiasm,” even my comments on this very thread put lie to your contention, as I quoted and linked to the Old Testament as well, giving one of my reasons for “hating” the Bible as the whole “chosen people” conceit. I have written several articles and blog posts critical of Judaism, as one search on this very website itself would reveal. Again, it is obvious you do not know my work.

    I have also criticized Hinduism, as well as Buddhism, where appropriate, such as their blatant sexism – those commentaries are mainly in my books, which you obviously haven’t read before you pretended to be an expert on my work. The fact is that neither of these two religions is causing the kind of trouble we see with the Abrahamic cults of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

    Why do you use the terminology “pick on,” as if Christianity is a cuddly living being that needs your protection? It is not. It is an ideology, and a flawed one at that, which has caused horrendous trauma in countless places globally over the past 2,000 years. Its needs to be criticized severely, as do Judaism, Islam and the other “anities” and “isms” that are causing problems on this planet.

    1. I laid no claim to being an expert on your work.

      I have read a number of your articles, but have arrived at them by external links. All of the articles have been attacks on Christianity.

      There isn’t an ideology, religious, political, or otherwise that isn’t flawed in some way. It’s called human nature. Science claims to have identified the so-called “god” gene. If true, that would explain why humans need a belief system of some sort.

      From a child to young adult, I attended church. There is a reason it is called a faith. There are huge gaps that one is expected to take as irrefutable truth. I always had difficulty with that notion. After observing other religions, I came to the conclusion that, in most cases, it is not the religion itself that was the problem, but religious leaders who sought to gain power and control others by using religion as an excuse. I have visited many countries, met people of diverse religious beliefs. In most cases, people want the same things: income security, family security, good health and peaceful co-existence. They aren’t bothered with state or religious politics unless incited to do so. Therefore, I have believed for the past 40+ years that most religious beliefs are meant as a guide to being a better person. This goes back to the Laws of Maat.

      The “religious” wars that have been fought for thousands of years have nothing to do with religion. They are about economics. Once economics are involved it’s all about power. All religious, political, or otherwise ideologies have power seekers that will corrupt the original meaning of the message.

  17. And science can come up with numerous reasons why a humming bird can’t fly. Speculation and theory aren’t the same as proven fact. Can someone please show me where these pagan deities ever espoused the doctrine of “love thy enemy” or “love thy neighbor” or “he is without sin, cast the first stone”. As for me, I will continue to worship the Father and the Son. Man is more than flesh and bone and there are mysteries that can and will never be solved by man in his continual quest to disprove the existence of Christ. If all this effort were put toward disproving Evolution, the theory of Evolution would be completely forgotten by now. Satan will use any and all means to dissuade the followers of Christ. Like the Bible says, if it weren’t for Christ’s return even the elect will be fooled.

    1. Love thy enemy/neighbor
      There are teachings from Zoroaster that talk of love, the Buddha taught love, Hinduism taught love, the Tao taught love, Sikhism taught love. The fact is that historically early orthodox Christianity did not teach love; it taught obedience to the bishop. Love came into Christianity from the Gnostics. I am convinced that all of the Gospels were written by the Gnostics and adapted and edited by orthodox Christianity. It is a historical fact that in the late 1st and 2nd centuries the Gospels were edited. It is also a known historical fact that Constantine in the early 4th century edited the Gospels and Epistles and decided what the Christian canon would look like. Many of the teachings attributed to Jesus were also found in the mystery religions, Buddhism (which was proselytizing in the 1st century), and the Pagan religions that existed at the time. The Christian Scriptures we have now are a compilation from the Middle Ages. As far as the Hebrew Scriptures, it is a historical fact that prophet Ezra had rewritten all of the scriptures that were extant at the time (c. 400 BCE). In Judean history, after Ezra read the new scriptures to the people it states, “The people heard things they had never heard before.” So, he changed it. No one actually knows exactly what the earliest texts of either the Hebrew or Christian texts said.

  18. What utter nonsense, falsehoods, calumny and libel. I am an independent researcher with NO backing whatsoever and no “agenda” other than the truth.

    Moreover, that foolish “Zeitgeist Refuted” film you cite is full of error and Christian bias. Its claims have been refuted repeatedly, as one can discover here:

    ‘Zeitgeist Refuted’ Documentary Debunked ([url]http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3063[/url])

    Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=19[/url])

    In specific, you can also see these links:

    The ZEITGEIST Sourcebook ([url]http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitgeistsourcebook.pdf[/url])
    Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes re Zeitgeist, Part 1 ([url]http://www.truthbeknown.com/chrisforbeszeitgeist.html[/url])

    My research is absolutely substantiated by a variety of primary sources in their original languages, as well as commentary by many highly credentialed individuals in relevant fields. Here is a list of the sources for my “ZEITGEIST Sourcebook,” for example:

    Primary Sources, Publications and Scholars Cited in The ZEITGEIST Sourcebook ([url]http://www.truthbeknown.com/zeitgeistsources.html[/url])

    Apparently, in your haste to spread lies about me and my work, you have forgotten the Ninth Commandment:
    [b]
    “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”[/b]

  19. Inconsitency
    Inconsistency is normal for a sci-fi writer, where he(she) have to “keep-up” with many names. Bible is a “made-up” book. None of the characters are real. Nowhere, in Greek or Roman history, are the names portrayed in that book, are real. To make it look like real, some historical event are written and some historical persons are mentioned. Today, someone with good knowledge of historical event, can write “Bible” and many people will buy it. Make own religion. Any “facts” can not be real from only one source of information available to masses, and specially, if the masses can not read.
    Religion definition = “smart” people taking advantage of the stupid one.

  20. It never ceases to amaze me thay critics of Christianity rely on the variations of the story.
    There have been literally dozens of experiments that demonstrate the variation of witness statements to events that have been staged and filmed. Referees in football games confer before making a call. It is human nature to see and hear differently than someone else.
    The issue that seems to escape you is that most (not all) religions are open to anyone who wishes to join/believe, and that those religions have a basic message: follow our rules to be a better person.

    Unfortunately, there are bad examples of people alleging to be Christians, who aren’t, and that includes so-called religious leaders of a number of denominations.

  21. Acharya is Agenda Driven
    The author of this piece has been outed in the fine documentary film “Zeitgeist Refuted Final Cut” You can view it on YouTube here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hgX6w4U-2o

    If you dare read her work, it’s obvious someone or something is behind her. Her “research” is unsubstantiated and unfounded.

    She is part of the new vulgar atheism concept that is sweeping the world. Don’t take anyone’s word for it. Read it for yourself.

  22. revelation
    Acharya S bring all religious scritures on the planet and I will clear them for you the onlythings that exist on this planet is humanity life and death all the rest is deceit and a distraction to fool humanity. animals and plants are part of the existence but humanity should not be conserned with them sinse humanity had been destroying them for ever and ever. humanitys’ only consern should be life and death. I challenge you to take my bluff, like I said I will explain any religious word on this planet peace

  23. Acharya’s article was prompted by another article about how a Christian group, the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, is chronicling the numerous variations found in Biblical texts, including passages that were obviously added decades/centuries after the original texts where known.

    http://www.npr.org/2011/07/17/138281522/how-bible-stories-evolved-over-the-centuries

    She is only reiterating what Christian scholars and others have known for centuries. Furthermore, she neither uses this information to prove nor disprove anything (other than the folly that the Bible is inerrant), which, of course, is accepted by all except for the most deluded of fundamentalist theists.

    If you wish to debate this – fine. But simply attacking Acharya for highlighting this information shows that you have no argument. She is just the messenger. Sorry the message upsets your comfy little supernatural belief system. Deal with it.

  24. Pay Attention
    [quote name=”Allan”]Acharya’s article was prompted by another article about how a Christian group, the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, is chronicling the numerous variations found in Biblical texts, including passages that were obviously added decades/centuries after the original texts where known.

    http://www.npr.org/2011/07/17/138281522/how-bible-stories-evolved-over-the-centuries

    She is only reiterating what Christian scholars and others have known for centuries. Furthermore, she neither uses this information to prove nor disprove anything (other than the folly that the Bible is inerrant), which, of course, is accepted by all except for the most deluded of fundamentalist theists.

    If you wish to debate this – fine. But simply attacking Acharya for highlighting this information shows that you have no argument. She is just the messenger. Sorry the message upsets your comfy little supernatural belief system. Deal with it.[/quote]
    How Bible Stories Evolved Over The Centuries ([url]http://www.npr.org/2011/07/17/138281522/how-bible-stories-evolved-over-the-centuries[/url])

    YES! Finally, someone points out the obvious that so many fundy’s here fail to observe. Thanks for that, Allan!!!

  25. I have doubts
    I don’t know why I didn’t catch this one earlier in my school life but in premed, we were taught when a body dies, everything ceases to function, heart, blood circulation, breathing etc. I can’t quote you the exact chapter and verse but when the centurion lanced Jesus’ side, water and blood flowed. The statement “blood flowed” indicates to me that Jesus’ bodily functions were working. I confirmed this with a mortician and an intern in a college and they both said bleeding from a dead body does not exist. A trickle may occur but not flowing. His heart was working to create a flowing. I’ll stop here but there are many more peculiarities that the public swallows but I have to be careful because I have accused of destroying people’s faith.

    Holly Rose

    1. I have doubts
      “but in premed, we were taught when a body dies, everything ceases to function, heart, blood circulation, breathing etc”

      Premed misled you. The body dies in stages, unless there is severe trauma. The heart may stop, but the brain continues functioning for a several miinutes as it shuts down bodily functions. Hearing is the last to go. People who have “died” and were revived have stated that they could hear others speaking, and rememberes what they said. Even after death, the body can “move” as muscles either relax or contract. Autopsies often have the intestines “move” out of the body after incision – presumed to be caused by gut bacteria creating gas in the cadavre. By the time a cadavre reaches a mortician, there better not be any blood flowing or trickling.

      I recall hearing, about 40 years ago, that a Swedish scientist was weighing bodies at death. People near death were put on a scale that could weigh in milli (or micro)grams. The post death weight was only slightly less by 1 or 2 micro/milligrams. The question was: why the change in weight? I have never been able to find out if this was, in fact, true.

      If we assume that energy can neither be created or destroyed, where does the body’s life force – energy – go?

      All religions have their foibles, I don’t understand why people pick on Christianity. This writer won’t go near Judiasm, which likes to celebrate the slaughter of its perceived enemies, Hindi, with its multi-armed or animal headed gods, or the Gi’itchi Manitou of the North American Indians with the turtle and raven thing. All I see is a one trick pony.

  26. No surprise….the Qu’ran is the only Religous text free of error and contradiction.

    In fact the Christ of the Qu’ran is the reality. Muslims have been saying for 15 centuries that the bible is corrupted.

    Get over the hate filled bias and read the Qu’ran….i did.

    Your only supposed to hate Islam because the NWO wants you to.

    1. Yes, please do read the Koran, which itself is full of hate speech. And, no, it is not “error free” by any means. The Koran was created by MEN, and not a few of them at that.

      Quotes from the Koran ([url]http://truthbeknown.com/islamquotes.htm[/url])

      [b]Unbelievers[/b]

      “This Book is not to be doubted…. As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.” Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10

      “God’s curse be upon the infidels! Evil is that for which they have bartered away their souls. To deny God’s own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God’s most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers.” Quran 2:89-2:90

      “Lord…Give us victory over the unbelievers.” Quran 2:286

      “Lord…give us victory over the unbelievers.” Quran 3:148

      “I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.” Quran 8:12

      “When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” Quran 9:5

      “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.” Quran 9:73

      “Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” Quran 9:123

      “Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another…” Quran 5:51

      “He that chooses a religion over Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will be one of the lost.” Quran 3:85

      “Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful – he that does this has nothing to hope for from Good – except in self-defense. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to God shall all return.” Quran 3:28

      “Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron.

      “Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: ‘Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'” Quran 22:19-20

      “Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” Quran 48:29

      “Those that deny Our revelations We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise.” Quran 4:56

      “Let not the unbelievers think that they will ever get away. They have not the power to do so. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy…” Quran 8:59-60

      “Believers, know that the idolaters [non-Muslims] are unclean. Let them not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year is ended.” Quran 9:28

      “The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Bible] and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.” Quran 98:6

      [b]Women[/b]

      “They ask you about menstruation. Say: ‘It is an indisposition. Keep aloof from women during their menstrual periods and do not approach them until they are clean again; when they are clean, have intercourse with them whence God enjoined you….'” Quran 2:222

      “Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please.” Quran 2:223

      “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.” Quran 4:34

      “A male shall inherit twice as much as a female.” Quran 4:11

      “Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses…” Quran 2:282

      [b]”[Forbidden to you are] married women, except those whom you own as slaves.”[/b] Quran 4:24

      [b]Rewards in Paradise[/b]

      “The righteous shall return to a blessed retreat: the gardens of Eden, whose gates shall open wide to receive them. Reclining there with bashful virgins for companions, they will call for abundant fruit and drink.” Quran 38:51-2

      “God has purchased from the faithful their lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for the cause of God, they will slay, and be slain. Such is the true promise which He has made them in the Torah, the Gospel and the Koran….” Quran 9:111

      “As for the righteous, they shall be lodged in peace together amid gardens and fountains, arrayed in rick silks and fine brocade. Even thus; and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris.” Quran 44:51-54

      “On that day [the unbelievers] shall be sternly thrown into the fire of Hell . . . But in fair gardens the righteous shall dwell in bliss, rejoicing in what their Lord will give them. Their Lord will shield them from the scourge of Hell. He will say: Eat and drink to your hearts content. This is the reward of your labours.

      “They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris [virgin girls] We shall wed them. . . . Fruit We shall give them, and such meats as they desire. They will pass from hand to hand a cup inspiring no idle talk, no sinful urge; and there shall wait on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls.” Quran 52:13-24

      “Reclining there upon soft couches, they shall feel neither the scorching heat nor the biting cold. Trees will spread their shade around them, and fruits will hang in clusters over them.

      “They shall be served with silver dishes, and beakers as large as goblets; silver goblets which they themselves shall measure: and cups brim-full with ginger-flavoured water from a fount called Salsabil. They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who to the beholders eyes will seem like sprinkled pearls. When you gave upon that scene, you will behold a kingdom blissful and glorious.” Quran 76:9-20

      [b]Quotes from the Hadiths or Records of Mohammed’s Deeds and Words[/b]

      “The Prophet…said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His apostle, face our qiblah (direction of prayer), eat what we slaughter, and pray like us.” Sunan Abu Dawud 14.2635

      “…the Apostle of Allah [said]: He who goes forth in Allah’s path and dies or is killed is a martyr…and will go to Paradise.” Sunan Abu Dawud 14.2493

      “The Prophet…said: Our Lord Most High is pleased with a man who fights in the path of Allah…” Sunan Abu Dawud 14.2530

      “Allah’s Apostle [Muhammad] said, ‘I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand.'” Sahih Bukhari 4.52.220

      “The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.” Sahih Bukhari 7.62.6

      “The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).” Sahih Bukhari 7.62.88, 7.62.64

      “Once Allah’s Apostle went out to [offer the prayer]… Then he passed by the women and said, ‘O women! Give alms, as I have seen that [b]the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)[/b].’ They asked, ‘Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He replied, ‘You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.’ The women asked, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?’ He said, ‘[b]Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?[/b]’ They replied in the affirmative. He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'” Sahih Bukhari 1.6.301

      Who Authored the Koran? ([url]uthored the Qur’an?—an Enquiry by Abul Kasem[/url])

      You’re only defending Islam because you haven’t studied the subject.

      Islam Reality Videos ([url]http://islamreality.wordpress.com[/url])
      Quotes from the Quran ([url]http://truthbeknown.com/islamquotes.htm[/url])
      The Religion of Peace ([url]http://www.thereligionofpeace.com[/url])
      270 Million Murdered by Islam ([url]http://www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad[/url])
      Faith Freedom ([url]http://www.faithfreedom.org[/url])
      Islam Watch ([url]http://www.islam-watch.org[/url])
      Jihad Watch ([url]http://www.jihadwatch.org[/url])
      Amil Imani ([url]http://www.amilimani.com[/url])
      Prophet of Doom ([url]http://www.prophetofdoom.net[/url])
      Islamic Crusades ([url]http://occidentalsoapbox.blogspot.com/2008/11/islamic-crusades.html[/url])
      Women’s Rights in Islaml ([url]http://freethoughtnation.com/womens-rights-in-islam.html[/url])

    2. :o Any Moron can see the Qur’an is a piece of sh*t more so than the other holy books.
      Send me your email ArhataFreeSpeech@yahoo.com
      I daily write ‘spiritual shock talk’ that I walk and see without a belief system. All belief systems are such because they are not the truth. No one has to believe in the truth. You are asked to believe otherwise there will be no sheeple.

      1. No, it’s “only a piece of sh*t” if you think it is a coherent text. Please, Mohammed didn’t sit down like Stephen King to plot and write it. It is obviously a compilation (it is more apparent in the Arabic). Computer analysis of the text could probably identify how many people had a hand in it, and from this work out how it came to be.

        I remember the first time I read it in translation back in my teens. It struck me as a very uneven text, but there is no doubting there are passages of remarkable profundity and beauty scattered through it. My view hasn’t changed, really. I would say that such fine passages are, in some sense, “original”, wherever (or even whoever) they came from.

        As for the barbarism in the text, you have to keep in mind what the folk of the peninsula must have been like for the principles it commands to be acceptable. It is a shocking thought that the Quran was an improvement on the extant state of affairs!

  27. What God Really Meant When HE Said…..
    As long as a religion remains commemorative, and not living, it will rely upon the literal interpretation of the text, rather than the experience of Holy Spirit in the here-and-now. Throw away your calendar of events. The moment of power is now!

  28. Comparison with the Original Aramaic Text
    I have found it very interesting and even inspiring to read the work of Neil Douglas Klotz who went back to original Aramaic texts, both to assess errors in translation and clarify the meanings of the original text. By translating directly from Aramaic into English, he avoids some of the downside of the double translation first into Greek — then into English.

    His first book is “Prayers of the Cosmos”.

  29. Christianity shall always be an ancient game of telephone gone horrible wrong. Getting the fervent believers to admit it is sadly the hardest part. :silly:

  30. :o Will Did you study ‘wackism’ in school. typical male ego here that looks for the negative judgment. I’ve seem you on my writings so many times. Learn to love yourself, and you’ll be surprised how what you see is different. You see what you are! Mirror, mirror…
    If you have the courage to read my ‘spiritual shock writing’ be my guest at ArhataFreeSpeech@yahoo.com

  31. I disagree with you…Judaism …specifically jewish supremacism is causing much more problems than Islam….

    basically our whole banking system and all nations are run by the rothschilds and stupid goyim beasts go to fight wars for them in the middle east.

    Iraq was a secular state by the way…and where are the weapons of mass destruction..

    Look at all the evil the usury in our global financial system is spreading…

    Usury on money that’s written up in a ledger basically.

    BTW who is behind all the mass immigration of all types of cultures including Muslims into European and european majority countries.

    hint its not muslims and its not the native gentiles.

    what about communism…how many european gentiles suffered under largely jewish run communism?

    have you heard of the holomidor?

    Anyway….put it this way if Jesus is not real..so what his teachings are universal brotherhood..even love your enemies…

    Judaism is a mirror image of Nazism./Racial supremacy

    Islam, treats non muslims as second class citizens but not to the degree Judaism does….google Rabbi Ovaida Yosef.

    1. I disgree with you. The problem is with monotheism. All monotheist religion is dangerous and suspect as a study of their histories and theological developments show: the enactment of their principles is where the evil lies. To pick out any particular schism within the monotheist stream is to miss this point. Where it is not simply jejeune, I hold monotheism to be philosophically incoherent. As an observer of my fellow humans, I remain bemused by how some can choose to believe in a One God Universe on grounds less credible than are found in children’s stories.

  32. Banned from Her Yahoo group several years ago…
    I simply asked why she never pointed out problems with the “old testament” and was told that she didn’t want controversy and was banned from the group.

    1. I’m sorry, but if the “she” you are talking about is me, that’s a complete and utter lie.

      I’ve been dissecting the Old Testament for decades, as someone would know if he or she actually knew my work. All you need to do is a search on THIS site for my many articles that discuss the Old Testament and Jewish atrocities.

      Here’s just ONE such article, which has been on my website since the last 1990s. My books also discuss the problems with the Old Testament and Judaism.

      Quotes from Judaism ([url]http://truthbeknown.com/judaismquotes.htm[/url])

      I also don’t ban people for “controversy.”

      From what you’ve said here, you were probably banned for personal attacks and falsehoods.

  33. Curmudgeon – I have doubts
    Curmudgeon- We are not talking about talking about dying in stages and all the diversions you have added but the fact when the heart stops, bleeding stops period. When health professionals and morticians tell me there is no bleeding when the heart stops, there is no bleeding. I found this to be true when I was slaughtering chickens. I could tell you the morticians have told me that cadavers sit straight up when they are being worked on. They are plenty dead. Stay with the subject matter.

  34. Please do not come up again with your „scholars“ – as if that word had any value in itself. You quote from them, regardless wether they say the truth or utter nonsens, or simply opine.

    If you want to prove something, you have to present facts and not quoting dubious sources.

    „A mass of variations“: so what? There is one original, divinely inspired, sacred text, and a mass of forgeries, alterations and versions – many of which were fabricated for the purpose of feeding anti-Christian agents like you.

    „The so-called “canonical” books of the New Testament, as of the Old, are a mass of contradictions“: you were already cought with that falsehood:

    http://freethoughtnation.com/contributing-writers/63-acharya-s/531-bible-scholar-new-testament-books-and-letters-bogus.html#CommentForm

    ..now you try it again!

    Why are you unable to present a single contradiction?

    „Of the 150,000 variant readings which Griesbach found in the manuscripts of the New Testament, probably 149,500 were additions and interpolations.“

    How „scholarly“ is the word ‘probably’?

    „ But Bill Warren, the professor leading the project, tells weekends on All Things Considered host Guy Raz that in the original manuscripts for Mark, the story of Jesus visiting the disciples is nowhere to be found…. „

    An other piece of „fine science“: What are the „original“ manuscripts of / for Mark??
    Fact is, there are no known original autographs of the writers of the gospel – hence there is no known „original“ – there are copies of various quality – some by Christians, who diligently copied the true, original writings, others by non-Christians, who omitted and altered the text at will. If there is a manuscript, which does not contain a certain part, than that part simply may have been lost – which is, of course, no evidence at all, that the original writer did not include that passage!

    „Change In The Name Of Clarification“ – no Christian would ever dare to „change“ any part of the Bible, as the scriptures warn explicitly of such actions. If someone faked in „service of a / the Church“, than he did it for satan, and against the will of Yaweh.

  35. I don’t know what you’re babbling on about, but I suspect you don’t either.

    Instead of ranting angrily, do you have a point?

    Why do Christian ranters always sound so illiterate?

  36. Contradictions? Or Refracted Symbolic Images?
    Daemon Est Deus Inversus (Latin) Daemon is divinity inverted; more commonly, the Devil is God inverted. An ancient Hermetic, and later Qabbalistic, aphorism referring to that polar power which is required by the equilibrium and harmony in nature. The One, when manifested, becomes Two, and from the Two are unfolded or evolved all the sequence of manifest existence. Spirit and matter, good and evil, as distinct conceptions exist only by their mutual contrast. There is no evil per se, but the human notion of essential evil arises from our inability to take in the whole at a single glance.

    Daemon is applicable in general to all formative power, from the highest to the lowest; in this aphorism it denotes the formative rays in their manifestation in and on the lower planes of prakriti, called by contrast the nether pole. Western monotheism, having anthropomorphized the higher creative powers into a personal God, personified the lower powers into a Devil and demons. But Satan or the Adversary is only God’s messenger, because what is below reflects what is above. This aphorism, then, states that all the manifested universe is the representation or material inversion or reflection of the divine essence and its emanations which in their aggregate compose the spiritual background and causal forces of the universe. Furthermore, a reflected image reverses.

    Finally, the aphorism denotes the astral light, represented by a black triangle inverted on a white (SD 1:424).

  37. Holly Rose
    I worked in a hospital, and dealt with people dying from trauma, literally bleeding to death. The blood stopped pumping or gushing when the heart stopped, but they still bled – oozing. Autopsy tables have to be cleaned of blood – small amounts. The vascular system, particularly arterial, is “pressurized” by the heart’s pumping action.

    You seem to have missed the real point of my comment.

    Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The life force of the body must go somewhere. Christianity happens to call it the soul. Therefore, there has to be a thread of truth to the creed – life everlasting.

    As for Jesus being a construct or non existent, why do the pharisees and their descendant rabbis state that Jesus was executed as a heretic? It would have been simpler to say he never existed.

    1. “Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.”

      Generally speaking, no it cannot, though if you accept the Big Bang Hypothesis (which was neither Big nor a Bang, but just a label that Sir Fred Hoyle disparagingly attached to the theory) your statement is obviously contingent as that was when it came into existance. :-) Also, while energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it does become more disorder with time due to entropy.

      “The life force of the body must go somewhere.”

      It does. According to science (and just to balance your own implication), it disperses into the environment due to entropy.

      “Christianity happens to call it the soul.”

      “Soul” is a Germanic word: I doubt the ancient Palestinians were acquainted with it. If you mean “psyche”, well that is Greek with a complete definition in Classical philosophy which differs from Christianity. Or do you mean “Neschamah” or “Nephesch” in the Old Testament, which, again, differ from the others? Also, Buddhists repudiate the idea of a soul (anatman) and put all the work on the principle of karma. What I am saying is that you are trying to fob Holly Rose off with a meaningless token bereft of context.

      “Therefore, there has to be a thread of truth to the creed – life everlasting.”

      Has there really? What is the thread of truth in flat-earth theories? And “life everlasting”? What does this mean? I take it to mean that life reproduces and fills all available niches, eternally renewing itself. You seem to expect it to be read as “continued conscious existance after death”; now I’m not saying that isn’t a possibility, but the fallacy of venerable authority does nothing to support it as a thesis.

      As for Jesus, read the sources, preferably in the original, and judge them as if they were from an culture alien to yours (i.e. fairly and as objectively as possible). Pay attention to their context, and don’t project later ideas back into your reading of them. THEN you might get what all the fuss is about . . .

      1. Z:
        The big bang theory is separate from the theory of relativity. One problem with the theory is that there is no explanation whence the material for the explosion came.
        The German word for soul is Geist.
        Ancient Palestinians did not speak modern day English.
        I am not able to read Aramaic, and I would be surprised if you could.
        As for Jesus, that is the name attached to him by non Aramaic and Hebrew speakers, in the same way that Attilla the Hun is known in German as Koenig Etzel, and “God/Dieu/Gott/Gúð” is YWVH in Hebrew.

        Life everlasting = flat earth theory
        Tell it to these people

        http://www.reversespins.com/proofofreincarnation.html

        My reply to Holly Rose was to correct mis-information, not castigate.

        I have stated that all religions require belief in things that cannot be literally true.

        If you have the answer please educate me as to why the ancient pharisees and modern rabbis insist Jesus was executed as a heretic.

        I’m not interested in the vat of boiling semen stuff, that is like saying your mother wears army boots. There must be a reason they acknowledge his existence.

        1. Hi Curmugeon, thanks for the response.

          “The big bang theory is separate from the theory of relativity.”

          Sorry, no its not. The “Big Bang” derives, primarilly, from the combination of Hubble’s red-shift observations and their explanation by General Relativity.

          “One problem with the theory is that there is no explanation whence the material for the explosion came.”

          This is the point I made when I said “if you accept the Big Bang Hypothesis” etc. Look up Loop Quantum Cosmology and the Big Bounce Scenario to see what is currently being postulated. Here, there is a “before”. And btw., there was no “explosion”, that is a popularisation of what the physics indicates. Personally, I think the Big Bang is suspect for the very reason you cited, and Aquinas’s arguments don’t solve the problem.

          “The German word for soul is Geist.”

          Sigh. I said “Germanic word”, as in the northern European language group, of which English is a member. Geist is of the same etymology as ghost, and originally meant the same as the Greek pneuma, i.e. spirit. So you are confusing two words that have different references, i.e. soul (psyche) with geist (pneuma).

          “Ancient Palestinians did not speak modern day English.”

          Again you are simply repeating the point I raised. I don’t think you read what I wrote properly. The idea that the ancient Palestinians used the word in the same sense that we might is frankly risible. A study of the social psychology of the evolution of the ideas would perhaps be helpful. ;-)

          “I am not able to read Aramaic, and I would be surprised if you could.”

          Well, bringing up what languages I read is a contra hominem argument. That I read three besides my native tongue means what? Denial or obfuscation of the original sources undermines one’s argumentation, don’t you see that?

          “As for Jesus, that is the name attached to him by non Aramaic and Hebrew speakers, in the same way that Attilla the Hun is known in German as Koenig Etzel, and “God/Dieu/Gott/Gúð” is YWVH in Hebrew.”

          All labels attached after the event, and Jesus is Latin, you know. And as for YHWH, a tribal god whose boasts some choose to believe, such pronouncements are all too common in the history of religion. You are merely supporting your beliefs with factoids you think support them. A bit more humility please!

          “Life everlasting = flat earth theory
          Tell it to these people

          http://www.reversespins.com/proofofreincarnation.html

          Yes, reincarnation, like the Summerland of the Spiritualists, is more intelligible than the monotheist alternative. Proof, as things stand, will only be experiential, and we will each just have to wait and see. As I’ve pointed out, some things are more likely than others.

          “My reply to Holly Rose was to correct mis-information, not castigate.”

          My apologies if that is how you took my comment. I certainly didn’t think you castigated her.

          “I have stated that all religions require belief in things that cannot be literally true.”

          But so does any fiction, and remember, fiction can deal with reality just as well as faction. My query would be as to what is the basis of such belief: I think it is clearly in the mind of the believer, irrespective of whether it corresponds to consensus reality. The fact that the Upanishads resonate with me does not mean that I have to accept what is palpably false in them. “Test all things and hold fast to that which is good.”

          “If you have the answer please educate me as to why the ancient pharisees and modern rabbis insist Jesus was executed as a heretic.”

          History, in case you were unaware, is merely the stories we tell each other about surviving artefacts, and the problem of Chinese whispers makes all historical interpretation problematic. However, I will point out that all of these accounts are well after the event, where they are clearly not forgeries (look ‘em up!), and using them without knowing their context is liable to lead into error.

          “I’m not interested in the vat of boiling semen stuff, that is like saying your mother wears army boots. There must be a reason they acknowledge his existence.”

          My own (provisional) view, is that “Jesus Christ” is a myth. On the other hand, I think the man Joshua ben Miriam was one among many involved in the flowering of Graeco-Egyptian civilization that happened to coincide with Rome’s rise to hegemony (see M. Smith’s “Jesus the Magician”). The subsequent co-opting of him against nascent Christianity’s other factions and opponents, with his subsequent exaltation to imperial god, is par for the course, and quite unsurprising. To read theology into this is unhelpful (I do not accuse you of this).

          Thanks for reading!

  38. re:
    [quote name=”Penny”]I don’t know what you’re babbling on about, but I suspect you don’t either.

    Instead of ranting angrily, do you have a point?

    Why do Christian ranters always sound so illiterate?[/quote]

    In case that was in reply to my post:

    1.If you do not know something, why don’t you ask?

    2.Not knowing is no shame, but your “scholars” would “probably” call you illiterate for that – and they would be correct, at last!

    3.To accuse people, whom you are unable to understand, of babbling, is remarkably intolerant for a forum called “freethought” – but you probably didn’t understand that either and misread it as “free-of-thought” – then you would be right here.

    4.I didn’t make a point? Well, here is light for you:
    among other things i asked AS – and all of her groupies – why she repeatedly alledges, there would be contradictions in the Bible, but is unable to name just one of these!

    Over to you, “Penny”.

  39. re:
    [quote name=”Hector”]Here’s why:
    Is Christian morality psychopathic? (Sam Harris)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUVXEmJRGns/quote

    Your reply is typical for a brainless herd animal – quoting instead of speaking for oneself.
    Sam Harris: A Christ-hating jew, a pied piper who harvests people like you, who are unwilling or unable to think for themselfes.

  40. Oh–I forgot to mention above…I’d remind everyone that in Ancient Egypt, was not Horus(Jesus) ‘twin’ brother Set/Sut (Satan)? They both share the same mother Isis/Mary in the Sacred Mythos? If the fooled fanatics Anthropomorphized and worshipped the one–why not the other also then?

    To further illustrate the ignorance of certain people. I’m reminded here of the last Republican race for U.S. Pres., when Mr. Huckabee (Baptist) was debating Mit Romney (Mormon). (Both Exotericists!) Mr Huckabee said right on T.V. “Does not your religion (Mormon) worship the Devil?” I have no idea if they do Mr. Huckabee. But if they do? Their religion appears to a little smarter than yours! Perhaps they understand the Sacred Mythos a little better than you–and further still–YOU were once a Minister! Of the Dead (Exoteric) Letter that–Killeth. And of course, so do the Mormon’s, when not in the Laybrinth’s underneath their materialistic castle–out of prying laity flock eyes!

    Evil is only an absence of Goodness. Nothing more. It is Man himself whom is Evil–whom still can’t seem to control is Passions Lusts Selfishness Greedness Materialistic Idolitors War Mongerers. I’d also like to ask the Roman Churchianityists if their Preist’s perform their Excorcists to drive ‘Out’ the Devil? Are they then admitting by default, that perhaps the Jesus/Horus The Christ Spirit is IN THEIR AS WELL? And not back in Judea 2011 years ago? After all–they were Twin Brothers in the Mythos…Or better still…are they driving IN Jesus and OUT Satan. Ooooh…Light/Dark; Up/Down; Hot/Cold; Brilliance/Ignorance; Sistole/Distole; Morning/Night; Life/Death which by Philosophic Diivine Analogy, if all these “CONTRADICTIONS” support each other on this plane/gate of existence, how could there be any such thing as ‘Death’? Do not all the other contradictions I’ve wrote, require and kiss each other? Centrifugal/ Centripetal…Mirror Mirror on the wall, who’s the fairest of them all?

  41. I know you won’t publish my comment…
    It is the last time I am asking help from you. Islam : definitely an anti-woman cult ; “Christianity” -as mainly lived through history- : definitely the same. But don’t you think that the message of a Mother&Child based story would be worth of being considered as a Pa-Khonsu story ?
    I know you don”t want to hear about an historical Jesus. I know you don’t want to refer to the Founding Fathers as protectors of the Widow and the Orphan…
    …mmh…
    …You know what ? …I just realize now you won’t be of any help… sorry I have disturbed you

  42. Hans u. Friedrich – re:

    Your uninformed vile hatred is obscene. But, I suppose it is to be expected from a “brainless herd animal” like you,

  43. Here’s a little something from a former preacher of 20 years

    Bible Contradictions ([url]http://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=contra[/url])

    Oh look at what else I found. Isn’t it interesting that there exists no democracy in the bible. The god of the bible is certainly no moderate either.

    [quote]”Nowhere in Scripture will you find an acknowledgment that each individual has an “inalienable right” to be treated with fairness and respect, or that “We, the People” are capable of governing ourselves. There is no democracy in the “word of God.” In the bible, humans are “worms” and “sinners” deserving damnation, “slaves” who should humbly submit to all kings, heavenly and earthly.”

    “American laws are based on a secular constitution, not the bible. Any scriptures that might support a good law do so only because they have met the test of human values, which long predate the ineffective Ten Commandments.”

    “The God of Scripture slaughtered entire groups of people that offended his vanity, ordering young virgins to be kept alive as war booty for his priests (Numbers 31). “Happy shall be he that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones,” he advised (Psalm 137:9), threatening those with the wrong religion that “their women with child shall be ripped up” (Hosea 13:16), sending bears to attack 42 children who teased a prophet (II Kings 2:23-24), punishing innocent offspring to the fourth generation (Exodus 20:5), discriminating against the handicapped (Leviticus 21:18-23), promising that fathers and sons would eat each other (Ezekiel 5:10), and much more that we would find repugnant in a human being. In this theistic universe, morality is severed from reality and reduced to flattering the Sovereign.”

    Democracy, moderation in the Bible? ([url]http://www.ffrf.org/about/bybarker/goodness.php[/url])[/quote]
    Quotes from Christians:

    “Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land – for Jesus Christ – to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect life and godliness. It is dominion we’re after not just a voice. It is dominion we’re after not just influence. It is dominion we’re after not just equal time. It is dominion we’re after. World conquest. That’s what Christ has commissioned us to do.”
    - George Grant, “changing of the guard” pg 50-51

    “Our goal, as Christians, is to dominate society”
    - Pat Robertson

    “Christianity and Democracy are inevitably enemies”
    - R.J. Rushdoony “Independent Republic” pg 122, 1964

    “The church should be a disciplined charging army Christians, like slaves and solders ask no questions. We are fighting a holy war”
    - Jerry Falwell

    “Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the cost. As the vice regents of God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors — in short, over every aspect and institution of human society.”
    - D. James Kennedy

    “Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith … We need believing people.”

    - Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933.

    [quote]”Somebody ought to tell the truth about the Bible. The preachers dare not, because they would be driven from their pulpits. Professors in colleges dare not, because they would lose their salaries. Politicians dare not. They would be defeated. Editors dare not. They would lose subscribers. Merchants dare not, because they might lose customers. Men of fashion dare not, fearing that they would lose caste. Even clerks dare not, because they might be discharged. And so I thought I would do it myself.”

    - Robert Ingersoll[/quote]

  44. re:
    [quote name=”terrence”]Hans u. Friedrich – re:

    Your uninformed vile hatred is obscene. But, I suppose it is to be expected from a "brainless herd animal" like you,[/quote]

    So please tell me:
    where am i uninformed, and which of my words are “vile hate”?

    Strangely, no-one here can answer any of my questions!

    A brainless herd animal is someone, who quotes dubious sources, instead of thinking and speaking for himself.

    Now to whom and to whose posts does that apply?

    And – by the way – still waiting for any “scholar” to name just one “contradiction” in the Bible!

  45. Thank you for posting me Acharya, but without comment on your part it is not really posting.
    Sorry I was a bit blunt at you. You definitely deserve so much respect.
    So Jesus is just a compilation of mythical figures as you say. Ok. As a free thinker i am fine with the idea. So all the myths of all times tell the same story ( as told in your book about ‘Sun Gods’)… and it is all baseless ? So all myths talk about “something” lost ( Zep Tepi in your dear Egypt ) “that” would return at some point… and they are all fancy tales ?
    Humankind’s genuine spiritual teachings of all times are just repeating over and over an hearsay ?
    You, of such a heart and honest intellect, would you accept the idea that in the future people will call you crazy, just because you involved your life in searching for the truth ? …Like all those heartful and honest men and women from the past, who ended up reporting the same fairy tale ?
    Or is smthg greater than our intellects -even honest- can figure out going on ?
    Questions for you :
    1) if smthg was lost indeed -as all the myths you yourself report are indeed saying- and finally comes back, will you consider it non historical because hey ! : so many myths talked about it before !
    2) and do you think that the thing which came to rule during the long night that ensued the loss, would historically report it with a “you are so welcomed back and acknowledged!”.
    Mmh.. “like a thief in the night” might be the only option…
    And in that case don’t you think our hearts and ears ( intuition ) would be our best shots ?
    Well, sure, we can still rest our eyes on the old pages of old books, and declare them what we want or think…

  46. Penny, a lenghty reply of you, maybe the beginning of a thought-process, and a new life.

    Please note, i am not writing for my own, but for the glory of Yahweh and the truth, and maybe for the benefit of those who seek the truth.

    1.You still have the „quoting-disease“. If you use 2nd hand sources, you are bound to be manipulated and lied to. Thats why Jesus said: “Call no man Rabbi, for one is your teacher and you are all students!”
    -a quality, 1st-hand-quote!!! More to follow!

    2.As for your quotes on the Bible: i am not interested what people say about it, but what is in it! You can find it out yourself, at best by reading it yourself, but not by reciting non-Christians.

    Who would be best prepared to speak for you? Your neighbours, parents, collegues, friends or enemies? Or you yourself?

    3.As for the „preacher“ for 20 years – well, do you know him, do you know what he has preached, where do you know that he has ever been a Christian, while he is certinly not a Christian now?

    Generally speaking: any peodophile, murderer or liar can claim to be a Christian, (and many do), which says absolutely nothing.

    Christ said: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’
    shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
    but [only] he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

    Those who do the will of the father would never seek their own will, and they would never deny the gospel.

    If you found contradictions in the Bible, present them. Can you? But please don’t hide behind other people – i refer to what i said previousely about „scholars“, sources and quotes.

    4.May i ask you, Penny, how do you have come to think that you are qualified to speak on the Bible? Have you read it? And if not, why not? And more importantly: why don’t you start now? You can start reading the gospel of John, for example, and see what it tells you.

    Bible:“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.“

    Have you ever heard a politician or mainstream church leader saying these words? So who is on a moral high ground – Christ, who said nothing in secret, or the manipulators of this world, who tell you that you are modern and enlightened, and at the same time treat you like an inferior being without the right of an opinion of your own, but refer you to their bought and paid „experts“. Who would deny that they are constantly lying and manipulating, by using their media and educational systems?

    5.Just to reply to one of your points: democracy!!! What a joke!
    The truth: there is no such thing as democracy, never was, never will be! Or can you give an example of any democracy anywhere???
    Your own governement could kill or disposess you at any time they want to, and no-one would ever punish them, until – what an irony to you– Christ returns to judge the works of every man!

    Yes, he will punish even those, who hurt you, even if you do not accept Christ!

    Democracy is an illusion, designed to simulate rights for people who have no rights. That illusion makes it easier to rule over them, as they can be told that any tyranny would be their own electoral decision!

    How could any “democracy” exist, if an estimated 5% of the population own 90% of the wealth, media & education (the information-matrix, which you are processing and „quoting“ from), finance and industry?

    God, in contrast, gave every man a free will, and the power to execute it, in a contemporary, limited period of time, and in a setting called this world!

    And he gave a law to tell anyone what is right and wrong – one law for all. Whether they follow him or not.

    One equal law for all: „you shall not lie, steal, murder…“ , read the Ten Commandments.

    This is the reason why the world attacks Christ, and the Bible: it gives equal rights to people, who are mere cattle in the eyes of those, who think they have „evolved“ above the rest!

    6.Last point: „Quotes from Christians“ This is stand-up-comedy, even if you were sitting when writing. (Robertson may be an exception, as i do not know the context of this quote, it could be interpreted either way).

    However, the most disgusting example: Falwell! He is/was no Christian, but a Zionist and pro „Israel“.

    Zionism is the attempt to install a fake Kingdom of God in this world.

    Christ, however, said: „My Kingdom is not of this world!“ and „This place [the „holy land“, earthly Jerusalem] shall be left desolate, until i return.“

    As for Soldiers: Christ said: „Those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword.“
    And: „You can not serve two masters.“

    A real, spiritual soldier would never follow a Falwell, but would do ask a lot of questions instead!

    You see: if you know the word of God, you know God: and you can expose his enemies: liars, religious prostitutes and fakes!

    Some of those you cite (there we have it again), are already judged by Christ, who said:

    „Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?“

    „And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.“

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